Palmer 132" AC-130 Build
11-23-2009, 12:25 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
Hey Olsen,
When i first saw your pictures last night, i knew right away that you must have made your own hinges but i wasn't sure if you used your design based on Robart hinges. It sure looks good.
Actually i make my mock-up of hinges based on Robart's design 1.5yr ago to see if i can use it on my Constellation flaps, they worked well as they were suppose to but i wanted my flaps on Connie to travel all the way to tip ends of wing's TE!, therefore i didn't use this design on the Connie.
I think i made 10 different designs to get my flaps to travel all the way back before i found another friend's design that he made for his TU-95!. That design used CF tubes and center aluminum hinge for flaps to travel and pivot on too, it's very similar design as Frank and Mike (Ukerduker) used on there models. Posting pictures of my design based on Robart hinges...
When i first saw your pictures last night, i knew right away that you must have made your own hinges but i wasn't sure if you used your design based on Robart hinges. It sure looks good.
Actually i make my mock-up of hinges based on Robart's design 1.5yr ago to see if i can use it on my Constellation flaps, they worked well as they were suppose to but i wanted my flaps on Connie to travel all the way to tip ends of wing's TE!, therefore i didn't use this design on the Connie.
I think i made 10 different designs to get my flaps to travel all the way back before i found another friend's design that he made for his TU-95!. That design used CF tubes and center aluminum hinge for flaps to travel and pivot on too, it's very similar design as Frank and Mike (Ukerduker) used on there models. Posting pictures of my design based on Robart hinges...
11-23-2009, 08:59 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Quick question for all building these beasts...
Since i am considering all sorts of different options to make newer stabilizer for my bird.
How would be if i were to make it as foamcore instead of built up structure?.
My concerns are extra weight in the ass-end of the plane plus more weight of foamcore OB wing panels!..now most of the wing is behind the CG point and even with the weight of engines and electronic equipment at front, how would it effect flying performance on my model?....
Since i am considering all sorts of different options to make newer stabilizer for my bird.
How would be if i were to make it as foamcore instead of built up structure?.
My concerns are extra weight in the ass-end of the plane plus more weight of foamcore OB wing panels!..now most of the wing is behind the CG point and even with the weight of engines and electronic equipment at front, how would it effect flying performance on my model?....
11-24-2009, 03:31 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Another stupid question....
I am considering now to re-start on the project once again, starting by rebuilding set back section first. Now what i need to know is if the drawn out parts on the plans are in 100% correspondence with the build itself, what i mean if parts cut according to the plans will fit 100% together once assembling phase starts. I suppose since NO ONE answered my earlier question in above post, i got my ans as built up structure is the way to go on this model....
Sam
I am considering now to re-start on the project once again, starting by rebuilding set back section first. Now what i need to know is if the drawn out parts on the plans are in 100% correspondence with the build itself, what i mean if parts cut according to the plans will fit 100% together once assembling phase starts. I suppose since NO ONE answered my earlier question in above post, i got my ans as built up structure is the way to go on this model....
Sam
11-24-2009, 05:10 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Sam,
I didn't answer your previous post because I don't know anything about building with foam. I was waiting to see if anyone else would answer you. As far as cutting out new pieces from the drawings - my kit cutter followed the drawings as templates and it worked out okay. As I recall there were a couple of mismatches between ribs and leading edges, etc., but nothing serious to worry about. If you're thinking about builtup framing per the drawings, I would review the beginning of this thread where the guys are building from the drawings. If you're going to want removiable horizontal stabs., then you will have to work out a different arrangement for the servos and elevator controls, but I don't see why it can't be done. The drawings call for a continuous one piece metal rod extending through the fuselage to control both elevator sections.
Roger
I didn't answer your previous post because I don't know anything about building with foam. I was waiting to see if anyone else would answer you. As far as cutting out new pieces from the drawings - my kit cutter followed the drawings as templates and it worked out okay. As I recall there were a couple of mismatches between ribs and leading edges, etc., but nothing serious to worry about. If you're thinking about builtup framing per the drawings, I would review the beginning of this thread where the guys are building from the drawings. If you're going to want removiable horizontal stabs., then you will have to work out a different arrangement for the servos and elevator controls, but I don't see why it can't be done. The drawings call for a continuous one piece metal rod extending through the fuselage to control both elevator sections.
Roger
11-24-2009, 09:29 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Props4ever,
Ok ... Where to start.
1) Foam core Stabs. There should be no problem as long as you can make sure they are strong enough to do the job. If you want removeable foam core stabs, you will need to create mounting compartments for the servos. All removeable "planes" (wings, stabs, tail) will need to have the servos built in with the wiring through a connector. If you can get the foam core version to accomplish all the same aspects as the full wood versions why shouldn't it work? If the weight is much less than wood version, you will need to adjust your weight to keep the CoG.
2) Total rebuild. You definitely can use the plans to create all new parts. Strong suggestion to save you a lot of grief. Cut the pieces as you go. Don't cut all the pieces first and then start assembly. When cutting multiple copies, try cutting one to check the fit. Adjust as needed to get it to fit properly and then use the corrected part as your template for all the other parts. Be sure to double check your alignment and trueness as you go. It is very easy to get this bird twisted without realizing it. Again ... cut a piece and then check it for fit. Some of the parts in this bird are not included in the plans. If you are going to start over save the old build for parts to cut out and use to create templates when needed. One big advantage of starting over is you can also make the whole wings and tail removeable if you want (like mine). Also the stretch version if you like.
Dave
Ok ... Where to start.
1) Foam core Stabs. There should be no problem as long as you can make sure they are strong enough to do the job. If you want removeable foam core stabs, you will need to create mounting compartments for the servos. All removeable "planes" (wings, stabs, tail) will need to have the servos built in with the wiring through a connector. If you can get the foam core version to accomplish all the same aspects as the full wood versions why shouldn't it work? If the weight is much less than wood version, you will need to adjust your weight to keep the CoG.
2) Total rebuild. You definitely can use the plans to create all new parts. Strong suggestion to save you a lot of grief. Cut the pieces as you go. Don't cut all the pieces first and then start assembly. When cutting multiple copies, try cutting one to check the fit. Adjust as needed to get it to fit properly and then use the corrected part as your template for all the other parts. Be sure to double check your alignment and trueness as you go. It is very easy to get this bird twisted without realizing it. Again ... cut a piece and then check it for fit. Some of the parts in this bird are not included in the plans. If you are going to start over save the old build for parts to cut out and use to create templates when needed. One big advantage of starting over is you can also make the whole wings and tail removeable if you want (like mine). Also the stretch version if you like.
Dave
11-25-2009, 01:26 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
Dave and Roger,
In all cases foam core structural parts are much stronger plus they are "MORE" heavier then built up frames!. My concern is not making them out of foam but the extra "weight" of them is...As a general rule foam core wings, stabs, fins are always heavier then built up structures, it also depends on type of foam used to cut these parts from ie: White foam weights less as it's lighter and less denser foam where as insulation blue, pink and green foams are much more denser and weight more between the two types.
Removable panel's option is being given high consideration at this time. Dave you are right, stabilizer attachment compartments will be made including servo mounting pockets and tubes to pass wires through them into the fuselage. For this purpose I will see if i can find white medium bead w foam, it will be lighter then colored insulation foams.
As for the removable fin, i am not too sure about that at this time, this is due to lack of mounting structural space in that flat fuselage end section unless there is a way that i'm not aware off, i want to know it.
Can you post pictures of your removable tail section when you can get to your model. I doubt i will need it anytime to soon but will good to see. As far as stretching of fuselage is concerned, yes i will be right at that point and i can do it but Pakistan Air force (PAF) doesn't have a single stretched variant. Plus PAF's C 130E ship number# 64144 with RAIT special scheme is on a standard Hercules.....
If anyone else has different options or suggestions in mind, please post them here as it will take me few days to a week before i will start on this.
On another note Dave: You have stretched version already, now we don't know what if forum member "Grinder_RCU" has done to his C130, being said that, if i also stretch my model, well there will be 2 Canadian Palmer C130-30s!, now if Grinder also stretched his model, i don't know if we want so far all Canadian models to be alike to each other diementions wise or not!
In all cases foam core structural parts are much stronger plus they are "MORE" heavier then built up frames!. My concern is not making them out of foam but the extra "weight" of them is...As a general rule foam core wings, stabs, fins are always heavier then built up structures, it also depends on type of foam used to cut these parts from ie: White foam weights less as it's lighter and less denser foam where as insulation blue, pink and green foams are much more denser and weight more between the two types.
Removable panel's option is being given high consideration at this time. Dave you are right, stabilizer attachment compartments will be made including servo mounting pockets and tubes to pass wires through them into the fuselage. For this purpose I will see if i can find white medium bead w foam, it will be lighter then colored insulation foams.
As for the removable fin, i am not too sure about that at this time, this is due to lack of mounting structural space in that flat fuselage end section unless there is a way that i'm not aware off, i want to know it.
Can you post pictures of your removable tail section when you can get to your model. I doubt i will need it anytime to soon but will good to see. As far as stretching of fuselage is concerned, yes i will be right at that point and i can do it but Pakistan Air force (PAF) doesn't have a single stretched variant. Plus PAF's C 130E ship number# 64144 with RAIT special scheme is on a standard Hercules.....
If anyone else has different options or suggestions in mind, please post them here as it will take me few days to a week before i will start on this.
On another note Dave: You have stretched version already, now we don't know what if forum member "Grinder_RCU" has done to his C130, being said that, if i also stretch my model, well there will be 2 Canadian Palmer C130-30s!, now if Grinder also stretched his model, i don't know if we want so far all Canadian models to be alike to each other diementions wise or not!
11-25-2009, 08:52 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
I'm going to build as per plans and not stretch it. Since I lost my large basement work area and moved to a small house I haven't started the kit yet. This is huge plane to build and my previous work area was quite larger than the one I have now and that was a factor when i bought the kit yrs ago. But it would be cool to have a meet of the Palmer Herc's all in one place.
Grinder.
Grinder.
11-25-2009, 08:50 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Ok can't wait no longer anymore, more i see it sitting in this condition more it hurts me!. So
decided to start taking it apart sections. First comes off the fin (Talk about lack of glue and proper joints missing!!), then took off cap sheeting form Stabilizer box area to see inside of the stab box. So far all looks good in there.
To take the fin off, all i did was to cut along the base of dorsal fin on both sides with x-acto, cut 2 small rear spar joints in the stab box, wiggled the fin and WOULAA it came right out!!![X(][X(], oh oh, had to unscrew the set screw also for the rudder torque rod!!
......
I was taking to Mike few minutes ago about weight increase if i were to go foam core route for the removable stabilizer panels, he said "yes" there will be increase but not whole lot of it, now since rudder and elevator servos are in stab box, that will effect the weight as it's all in the tail end and it's not too too good as we all know that...
Edit: Forget to mention skin on the stab that came off is 1/16" vs 3/32" as it's suppose to be according to designer...
decided to start taking it apart sections. First comes off the fin (Talk about lack of glue and proper joints missing!!), then took off cap sheeting form Stabilizer box area to see inside of the stab box. So far all looks good in there.
To take the fin off, all i did was to cut along the base of dorsal fin on both sides with x-acto, cut 2 small rear spar joints in the stab box, wiggled the fin and WOULAA it came right out!!![X(][X(], oh oh, had to unscrew the set screw also for the rudder torque rod!!
......I was taking to Mike few minutes ago about weight increase if i were to go foam core route for the removable stabilizer panels, he said "yes" there will be increase but not whole lot of it, now since rudder and elevator servos are in stab box, that will effect the weight as it's all in the tail end and it's not too too good as we all know that...
Edit: Forget to mention skin on the stab that came off is 1/16" vs 3/32" as it's suppose to be according to designer...
11-25-2009, 09:00 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
After taking the rudder out, it turned out that it's warped at the top end. Fin also has a twist and warp in it, i had this suspicion but now it's all obvious it's not usable unless fixed or newer one is made...[&o]
11-26-2009, 01:06 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
ORIGINAL: grinder-RCU
I'm going to build as per plans and not stretch it. Since I lost my large basement work area and moved to a small house I haven't started the kit yet. This is huge plane to build and my previous work area was quite larger than the one I have now and that was a factor when i bought the kit yrs ago. But it would be cool to have a meet of the Palmer Herc's all in one place.
Grinder.
I'm going to build as per plans and not stretch it. Since I lost my large basement work area and moved to a small house I haven't started the kit yet. This is huge plane to build and my previous work area was quite larger than the one I have now and that was a factor when i bought the kit yrs ago. But it would be cool to have a meet of the Palmer Herc's all in one place.
Grinder.
11-26-2009, 09:40 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
Here is what i found in another thread plus another modeler on RCSB mentioned same to me. Foam cores can have lightening holes in them to save the weight. According to the modeler cutting lightening holes in his his wing cores of Extra stated that "It's the skin that gives all the strength..!". I suppose i will be in safe zone marking and cutting these on my OB wing cores, stabilizer panels and fin core...
11-26-2009, 12:06 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
ORIGINAL: dmcconneyherc
Props4ever,
Ok ... Where to start.
Foam core Stabs. There should be no problem as long as you can make sure they are strong enough to do the job. If you want removable foam core stabs, you will need to create mounting compartments for the servos. All removable ''planes'' (wings, stabs, tail) will need to have the servos built in with the wiring through a connector. If you can get the foam core version to accomplish all the same aspects as the full wood versions why shouldn't it work? If the weight is much less than wood version, you will need to adjust your weight to keep the CoG.
Dave
Props4ever,
Ok ... Where to start.
Foam core Stabs. There should be no problem as long as you can make sure they are strong enough to do the job. If you want removable foam core stabs, you will need to create mounting compartments for the servos. All removable ''planes'' (wings, stabs, tail) will need to have the servos built in with the wiring through a connector. If you can get the foam core version to accomplish all the same aspects as the full wood versions why shouldn't it work? If the weight is much less than wood version, you will need to adjust your weight to keep the CoG.
Dave
Dave,
Take a look at these servo mounting pockets and wire channels i made on that stabilizer of my
1/14th scale Super Constellation that is presently resting while hanging from ceiling. I also made same pockets and used styrene plastic 1/2" tubes to pass wires through on the 3 fins also.
Sam
11-26-2009, 07:23 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Props4ever,
I would think of building in a wood frame for securing the servos. Obviously trying to secure the servo to the foam will not work (for long).
Dave
I would think of building in a wood frame for securing the servos. Obviously trying to secure the servo to the foam will not work (for long).
Dave
11-26-2009, 10:37 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
ORIGINAL: dmcconneyherc
Props4ever,
I would think of building in a wood frame for securing the servos. Obviously trying to secure the servo to the foam will not work (for long).
Dave
Props4ever,
I would think of building in a wood frame for securing the servos. Obviously trying to secure the servo to the foam will not work (for long).
Dave
Dave,
Well i posted those pictures to show you how i made those servo pockets on the foam parts, now here are pictures of those plastic hatches on which servo mounts onto and locks into with a plastic strip. Then these hatches gets screwed into 4 wooden corner hatch mounting tabs on each corner of pockets to get properly secured.
So basically this is different design then adding wooden servo mounts in the pockets where servos would screw on to and then wooden hatch cover with slot opened for servos arm to access through and function.
From what i can see, 2nd ^^ design with wooden servo mounting tabs in the pockets will work pretty good for C130, this way it will just be the hatch cover and servo arms will be hidden under the hatch as per drawing you sent me earlier!...
1st- Picture you can see the mounting brackets built into the hatch cover on the underside with securing strip. (Holding hatch inverted)
2nd- Picture shows hatch secured to the fin with screws n each corner.
3rd- Picture shows plastic wire tube insert plus hatch securing wooden tabs inside the pocket on each corner on which hatch would screw on to.
Sam
11-27-2009, 01:00 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
Started to see if i can fix the twist and warp in the fin.
I am using ole steaming trick for this purpose.
I steamed top to 1/3rd span of the fin, when it all got moist and loose, then i put it under weights at specific locations to add weight at right areas. Presently its under weight and drying. Let see what the out come will be, i will repeat this process till i get the results i need, that is if i could!.
Pictures will be posted soon.
I am using ole steaming trick for this purpose.
I steamed top to 1/3rd span of the fin, when it all got moist and loose, then i put it under weights at specific locations to add weight at right areas. Presently its under weight and drying. Let see what the out come will be, i will repeat this process till i get the results i need, that is if i could!.
Pictures will be posted soon.
11-27-2009, 01:46 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
Looks like i achieved satisfactory results, i have placed the fin on its base for the night, lets see if it holds this newer position till morning.
First i'm posting pictures of the steaming process and then the results.
11-27-2009, 10:10 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
Hi Sammy,
Been watching this thread. Keep up the old Timex tradition.
If I may, do not attempt the AWACs version of the C-130. It looks cool but the dome will cause you a lot of building and flying headaches. Trust me on this one.
Glad to see you and your dad are doing fine.
George[img][/img]
Been watching this thread. Keep up the old Timex tradition.
If I may, do not attempt the AWACs version of the C-130. It looks cool but the dome will cause you a lot of building and flying headaches. Trust me on this one.
Glad to see you and your dad are doing fine.
George[img][/img]
11-27-2009, 11:28 AM
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RE: Palmer 132
ORIGINAL: ampbomber
Hi Sammy,
Been watching this thread. Keep up the old Timex tradition.
If I may, do not attempt the AWACs version of the C-130. It looks cool but the dome will cause you a lot of building and flying headaches. Trust me on this one.
Glad to see you and your dad are doing fine.
George[img][/imag
Hi Sammy,
Been watching this thread. Keep up the old Timex tradition.
If I may, do not attempt the AWACs version of the C-130. It looks cool but the dome will cause you a lot of building and flying headaches. Trust me on this one.
Glad to see you and your dad are doing fine.
George[img][/imag
Mike
11-27-2009, 02:16 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
ORIGINAL: ampbomber
Hi Sammy,
Been watching this thread. Keep up the old Timex tradition.
If I may, do not attempt the AWACs version of the C-130. It looks cool but the dome will cause you a lot of building and flying headaches. Trust me on this one.
Glad to see you and your dad are doing fine.
George[img][/img]
Hi Sammy,
Been watching this thread. Keep up the old Timex tradition.
If I may, do not attempt the AWACs version of the C-130. It looks cool but the dome will cause you a lot of building and flying headaches. Trust me on this one.
Glad to see you and your dad are doing fine.
George[img][/img]
Hey Senior..
Great to see you on here after all this long, i noticed you were watching the thread but was
waiting for you to say something. NO i will not be doing AWACS version on my model, maybe if
i did second one but not on this airframe.
Dad is in rehab section now and doing a lot better, so let see how long he will be there as he
has too much pain still as surgical wound is still fresh on his neck. I'm hanging in there as i
have been told, my back pain will never go away!, so i will have to live with it for the rest of my life!.
You know me, i will be on this one until it's done and flying. This is much easier to work in comparison with Constellation and even the fact i'm doing "D Check" on this one, it's great model. Set backs can happen and does happen at times, we just have to learn to keep moving forward and not let it stop us from our goals!...
Sam
11-27-2009, 02:37 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Looks like fin held it's new position pretty good, i think it's ready for re sheeting now with the change of tip block as it's way out of shape and throwing off the tip's profile.
11-27-2009, 02:51 PM
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RE: Palmer 132
Mike,
When you have to wait over a year and drive 1500Kms and do 24hrs trip, out of which 17-18hrs driving on the highways, well then will i highly doubt you will just say any of that what you indirectly said about my model. Set backs does happens and it happened to this model too, now i'm over it and moving forward while fixing it. Fuselage is 95% open frame structure at this time, i have been thoroughly inspecting it, all the internal joints are in great shape and if i would find a dried out one, i will re-glue it. I will go though whole airframe and i know once it's done, it will be good as new model.
Time has passed for me to re-start a newer kit, i will carry on with my rebuild on this airframe until it's all ready for flying.
Sam