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  1. #751
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90


    ORIGINAL: Bob Paris

    Hay3500-RCU,
    I have seen this product, but never used it before. I do have the cloth and epoxy on hand now to finish my P-38, so I will finish my model with this process. I actually liked WOW planes products, but shy away from foam...I've not had very good luck with it in the past accept for wings I skinned with 1/64'' ply (Bill Evens Syimitar series aircraft). Other then this, its either Super Monocote, or glass cloth. I will be spray painting this model, and I do have nice equipment I bought just for this project. I have spray painted before, but just with shaker-can paint from Top Flight...with mixed results. I wish I could buy Top Flight paint in cans so I can mix my own paint and colors...but I know of no sorce for their paint, but Tower Hobbies. I wish I had a sorce for water based, one part Poly-U paint, in WWII colors. But so far my search has come up empty handed.

    Tonight I start the engine servo instal. Like you suggested, I'm goint to mount my engine servo forward of the main landing gear, and go direct to the throttle, on each engine. I'll mount my elevaor and rudder servo aft of the main gear, next to where the main tire goes when it is retracted (that was a great idea!).

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
    If you get a chance in the future to try this stuff, it works very well directly over balsa, and creates a hard shell over foam, that can then be painted with virtually any type paint without attacking the foam. pretty cool stuff.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  2. #752

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Hay ram3500-RCU,
    I got busy today and managed to assemble the wing for the first time. I also set the dowls in the main wing, and assembled the pilot compartment and both engine pods, with hold down screws. Wow...its a bit bigger then I thought and it took a bit of time to figure out how to handle the airframe with most of the model assembled. I then cut my main landing gear struts as short as I was able to and set the airframe down on the ground for the first time. I then got to work getting the 4" main tire into the wheel well as best I could, installed my rudder and elevator servo mount aft of the main wheel tire, and installed my engine servo mount, forward, of the main landing gear forward bulkhead. I've yet to cut and fit a cover for the main wheel retract/servo bay, but when that is done, I'll be finished with the starboard side. I've the port side to do and then glass the pods.

    When I first removed the servo tray in each pod, I was careful and saved them. I then cut them to fit my rebuild and this really speeded up the process.

    The main gear tire does not fully retract into the pod...and I had to modify the wing just a bit to clear the main gear tire too. If I went with a 3" tire I would have no modifications to do...but it just didn't look right, so I went with the 4" tire. But with all the racket these two .61's will make and the speed of the machine...I do not feel that the amount of tire that is not fully retracted, will matter much... : )

    I have 4 3/8" clearance from the bottom of the rudder to the ground. Not exactly 4", but close.

    I also decided to go with a two piece wing. 90" is just to much to handle...45" is much easyer.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
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    AMA 15016
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  3. #753
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90


    ORIGINAL: Bob Paris

    Hay ram3500-RCU,
    I got busy today and managed to assemble the wing for the first time. I also set the dowls in the main wing, and assembled the pilot compartment and both engine pods, with hold down screws. Wow...its a bit bigger then I thought and it took a bit of time to figure out how to handle the airframe with most of the model assembled. I then cut my main landing gear struts as short as I was able to and set the airframe down on the ground for the first time. I then got to work getting the 4'' main tire into the wheel well as best I could, installed my rudder and elevator servo mount aft of the main wheel tire, and installed my engine servo mount, forward, of the main landing gear forward bulkhead. I've yet to cut and fit a cover for the main wheel retract/servo bay, but when that is done, I'll be finished with the starboard side. I've the port side to do and then glass the pods.

    When I first removed the servo tray in each pod, I was careful and saved them. I then cut them to fit my rebuild and this really speeded up the process.

    The main gear tire does not fully retract into the pod...and I had to modify the wing just a bit to clear the main gear tire too. If I went with a 3'' tire I would have no modifications to do...but it just didn't look right, so I went with the 4'' tire.

    I have 4 3/8'' clearance from the bottom of the rudder to the ground. Not exactly 4'', but close.

    I also decided to go with a two piece wing. 90'' is just to much to handle...45'' is much easyer.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
    Looks good Bob.

    You see why the 3 piece wing is so much more practical for this plane. IMO, it should have been designed that way in the first place. If they re-release it, I hope they fix that, if nothing else. But I'm not to optimistic. Seems these days that how easy it is to manufacturers takes president over how user friendly it is to us.

    I also needed to notch out the trailing edge of the wing for the tires, inside the boom.

    Looks like she is sitting tail low. Nice.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  4. #754

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Hay ram3500-RCU

    She is sitting tail low for sure, and I didn't cut the 3/8" Robart nose wheel strut either...its full length, out of the package, from Robart. I did cut the main gear 1/2" struts as far as I could and still fit the round alum. fitting full and flush. Its a trip and yes, its coming along. Its just a lot more work then I ever emagined...but its been fun too.

    I agree, a three piece wing would make the machine much easyer to work with. A three piece wing would also make setting up the model at the flying field much simpler too. I have yet to build in my access holes for the retract air line and servo leads, that go into the pilot compartment, from the engine pods. Lots to do...and I've yet placed in my receivers, routed servo wires or the glow plug re-heat system.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
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    AMA 15016
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  5. #755
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90


    ORIGINAL: Bob Paris

    Hay ram3500-RCU

    She is sitting tail low for sure, and I didn't cut the 3/8'' Robart nose wheel strut either...its full length, out of the package, from Robart. I did cut the main gear 1/2'' struts as far as I could and still fit the round alum. fitting full and flush. Its a trip and yes, its coming along. Its just a lot more work then I ever emagined...but its been fun too.

    I agree, a three piece wing would make the machine much easyer to work with. A three piece wing would also make setting up the model at the flying field much simpler too. I have yet to build in my access holes for the retract air line and servo leads, that go into the pilot compartment, from the engine pods. Lots to do...and I've yet placed in my receivers, routed servo wires and the glow plug re-heat system.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
    She is taking shape though. Nice progress.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  6. #756

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Hi Guys,
    I weight of my model, prior to any modifications was 8# 9 ounces, and that was with every thing that came with the kit, minus the engines, radio gear and other modifications to the airframe. I know my glass covering is very light weight...and just the type of paint is the question now.

    A buddy of mine went down to Ameritone paint, and gave then the colors he wanted. So he did his model in water based acrylic, they matched Super Monocoat almost dead on perfect, and he used their new "Regency" paint. This paint comes in all finishes, from flat to gloss. I looked into the high end paint, and some of it goes for $25.00 for four (4) oz... ! It's water based pollyurithane and neat stuff, but a bit to much for my budget. I live in Hawaii, and its nearly impossible to get Luster Coat shipped in pint cans...and Sig is out of business...so using Sigs Nitrates or other dope finishes is out. So I just may try the Ameritone paint, for they can match it perfect to all colors I need, and its less then $15.00 a qt. (it also comes in pint cans). I can be reduce easily, to slow down the drying time a bit for a smoother finish. The finish was good...but I didn't get the weight of the model after painting. I will weight out my model ready to paint and then weight it after its finished, ready to fly. I'll be insterested to know how much added weight I will add to this model fiberglassed and painted.

    I have almost finsihed installing the servo tray's on the port engine pod...one more session and I'll start the finishing process, on both.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
    AMA 15016
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    P-38 Brotherhood #51
    Say what you mean, mean what you say...and !#$& it if you can\'\'t take a joke.

  7. #757

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    As was posted on another thread, Sig is not out of business. They do have a new owner and balsa is in short supply for some reason.

    I would not count out their products just yet.

    Bill S.
    Carl Goldberg Ultimate Brotherhood #56
    Goldberg Tiger Club #17
    SIG Brotherhood #69

    Ultra Sport Brotherhood #135
    http://radiocontrolhobbies.freeservers.com

  8. #758
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    ORIGINAL: Bob Paris

    Hi Guys,
    I weight of my model, prior to any modifications was 8# 9 ounces, and that was with every thing that came with the kit, minus the engines, radio gear and other modifications to the airframe. I know my glass covering is very light weight...and just the type of paint is the question now.

    A buddy of mine went down to Ameritone paint, and gave then the colors he wanted. So he did his model in water based acrylic, they matched Super Monocoat almost dead on perfect, and he used their new ''Regency'' paint. This paint comes in all finishes, from flat to gloss. I looked into the high end paint, and some of it goes for $25.00 for four (4) oz... ! It's water based pollyurithane and neat stuff, but a bit to much for my budget. I live in Hawaii, and its nearly impossible to get Luster Coat shipped in pint cans...and Sig is out of business...so using Sigs Nitrates or other dope finishes is out. So I just may try the Ameritone paint, for they can match it perfect to all colors I need, and its less then $15.00 a qt. (it also comes in pint cans). I can be reduce easily, to slow down the drying time a bit for a smoother finish. The finish was good...but I didn't get the weight of the model after painting. I will weight out my model ready to paint and then weight it after its finished, ready to fly. I'll be insterested to know how much added weight I will add to this model fiberglassed and painted.

    I have almost finsihed installing the servo tray's on the port engine pod...one more session and I'll start the finishing process, on both.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
    Good to know Sig is still is business.

    Paint - I often use Rust-Oeum paints and did again on my P-38. The underside is their Grey primer, and the OD is their Camo color. The invasion stripes are the flat black and white Rust-Oleum. The key is waiting at least 2 weeks before exposing it to fuels. I have good success with it. Just for what it is worth.

    Weight - My P-38 all up weight wet is about 20lbs, with the two Saito 100s. This airframe will handle even more. I use 15 deg of flaps on take off, and it is a non event. The wing is flat bottom and has great lifting capacity. Cleaned up with retracts, this is a P-38-like little speedster. Full flaps on landing, and it is a graceful thing of beauty.

    Thanks for your updates.

    BTW, on the picture of her just after lift off, notice the rudder is neutral, and I have a lot of right aileron in her and she is still rolling slightly to the left. That is typical for take off with this plane. With the nose gear to hold her straight, you don't have to fight and tendency to yaw left with right rudder. You do have to keep the right wing down with right aileron. Be prepared for this. My first couple take-offs were not too pretty, as I was behind the ailerons and she would roll up on the left main and nose gear. Once you get up to speed and cleaned up, this all goes away. And it isn't an issue when in landing configuration at low power settings.
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    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  9. #759
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Gary you didn't tell me I made a boo boo! [X(] Stupid me, not thinking. I neglected to remove the original bottom sheeting when I installed the new formers and stringers. DUH!!!!!!!!

    For what ever reason, when I was looking at the photos I saw the front section with the original sheeting in place and the new formers over top, and missed (?) the whole part of removing the rest.

    Oh well, I'll take a razor knife and see what I can do to get it out of the way.

    I guess in a way it was a good thing, as I need to fab lower hatches anyhow for the packs to go in. Nother one of those getting too far ahead and not thinking about the rest.
    Oh well better now then later. Least I hadn't sheeted everything before realizing it. [:@]
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  10. #760
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90


    ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl

    Gary you didn't tell me I made a boo boo! [X(] Stupid me, not thinking. I neglected to remove the original bottom sheeting when I installed the new formers and stringers. DUH!!!!!!!!

    For what ever reason, when I was looking at the photos I saw the front section with the original sheeting in place and the new formers over top, and missed (?) the whole part of removing the rest.

    Oh well, I'll take a razor knife and see what I can do to get it out of the way.

    I guess in a way it was a good thing, as I need to fab lower hatches anyhow for the packs to go in. Nother one of those getting too far ahead and not thinking about the rest.
    Oh well better now then later. Least I hadn't sheeted everything before realizing it. [:@]
    Wow, sorry Brad. I missed that as well. I think the pictures on the disk and in the thread show that. The manual should have a step for that as well. I'll check it to make sure. It will cause some problems around the gear bay area and add more weight in the rear. You need to relocate the sleeves for the push rods to the tail also. This I do after the sheeting is removed, and before new is installed.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  11. #761
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    OK, I went back and checked the manual. Please see step #2 under the 'Boom Bottoms' section. Here is what is says.

    2. Starting at the front of the firewall and measuring toward the tail, mark the sheeting
    at 8 ¼” and again at 44 7/8β€œ. Leaving the triangle stock that is under the sheeting,
    remove all the sheeting between these two measurements.

    What took the most time, in putting together this kit, was the manual. I can't tell you how many hours I spent on it. Really, I can't. I lost track. It was written, and rewritten several times, and then after I released it, I continue to re-read it and make adjustments to improve how it reads. Hence the 2.4 version it the kit. There was a 2.1, 2.2, and 2.3 version.

    Guys, with all due respect, I truly believe that if you follow it, step by step, or at least very carefully read it over before beginning each phase of the remodel, you will benefit greatly.

    The most involved part of the whole remodel, IMO, is the main gear bay door phase, including their closure fittings. Please by very careful to read and follow the steps for this operation and keep them in order because it will help to make this part of the build even easier than it was for me. If you don't, you may have learned a whole new language before it is all over. I learned first hand what not to do here, and wrote the manual to make it easier for you you guys.

    As always, if you have found something I can improve in the manual or anything else, please share it with me. I'll gladly make the improvements for others that follow.

    Gary

    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  12. #762
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Oh well, no biggie, I got most of it cut away, so I'm good to go again.

    Gary you all packed up and ready for next week?
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  13. #763
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90


    ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl

    Oh well, no biggie, I got most of it cut away, so I'm good to go again.

    Gary you all packed up and ready for next week?
    I know we have gotten out of the habit of reading manuals since China got into the ARF business. They are usually worthless. Please notice that this is not the case with my mod kit. The manual is as comprehensive as I could make it.

    NO NO NO NO NO. Wish I was all packed. Brian has the plane about ready. It is in tip top shape. I'm still getting myself ready though.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  14. #764
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Yeah, I admit it, me being me. Popping between the CD, Forum, and Emails you sent I just skipped it some how. Must be more "Old Timers Disease" again. LOL!

    Oh well, I'll catch up with ya most likely Friday if not sooner. Will be nice to meet the master.

    And before I forget, best of luck with Zombie!!!!
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  15. #765

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Just cheking in....
    I am now covering my engine pods with fibergass and finishing epoxy. It took a couple of day's to get the engine pods ready to finish, and clean up all the hanger rash I managed to get on both pods, during my modifications.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
    AMA 15016
    Hellcat Brotherhood #21
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  16. #766
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90


    ORIGINAL: Bob Paris

    Just cheking in....
    I am now covering my engine pods with fibergass and finishing epoxy. It took a couple of day's to get the engine pods ready to finish, and clean up all the hanger rash I managed to get on both pods, during my modifications.

    Soft Landings Always,
    Bobby of Maui
    Looks like we will have company on these mods real soon Bob and Brad. There are a couple other builders taking it on, and I'm looking forward to seeing there progress as well.

    Nice work.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  17. #767
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Hey while browsing the net for some turbo supercharger photos I stumbled on this site. Has really nice multiple view and close ups of the museum P-38's including GG.

    http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/index.htm




    Anywho, progressing on the build. I removed the whole front lower section of the booms to make them removable for battery access.They will slip into the cowls on the front and I'll come up with some type of quick release latch for the rear.

    Should have the sheeting and glassing wrapped up this week. Finished up the S/C covers last night. I think I came up with a slick latch for them. I drilled a hole in the fuse former, and built spring loaded button pins for the covers. As the cover goes into place the pin snaps into the hole in the fuse and locks it. To remove it I can reach up inside the gear bay and push the pin back and pop the cover off. I'll get some shots of it, if someone want's to copy it.


    Hopefully Gary is on his way to TG, I hope to catch up with him on Wed.
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  18. #768
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl

    Hey while browsing the net for some turbo supercharger photos I stumbled on this site. Has really nice multiple view and close ups of the museum P-38's including GG.

    http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/index.htm




    Anywho, progressing on the build. I removed the whole front lower section of the booms to make them removable for battery access.They will slip into the cowls on the front and I'll come up with some type of quick release latch for the rear.

    Should have the sheeting and glassing wrapped up this week. Finished up the S/C covers last night. I think I came up with a slick latch for them. I drilled a hole in the fuse former, and built spring loaded button pins for the covers. As the cover goes into place the pin snaps into the hole in the fuse and locks it. To remove it I can reach up inside the gear bay and push the pin back and pop the cover off. I'll get some shots of it, if someone want's to copy it.


    Hopefully Gary is on his way to TG, I hope to catch up with him on Wed.
    First, let me get this out of the way. At literally the last minute, I mean my bags were packed, I had to scrub the mission.[&o] A medical issue developed over the week end with my 6 month old grandson, and I just couldn't walk out on the family and be 1000 miles from home this week. As it turned out, today, my wife had to take her mom back to the hospital with heart issues, and it was a very good thing I hadn't left. Family will always come first, and I have a big one (family that is). I sent Frank an email about my situation and he was gracious and kind with his response. A real classy guy IMO. I can't tell you how disappointing this is, but next year will be here before we know it. In the meantime, we have a whole season of flying to do, and hope to meet many of you at other events.

    As for this build, WE NEED PICTURES!!!!! Your ideas sound cool.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  19. #769

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Well here we go i got your mod kit today and i am going over all the material.

    I have everything i need so far except for the stringers , my LHS ran out of them so he is reodering and they should be in this weekend .
    Unfortunatly my LHS is 40 miles from me so i got smart and called first. I know i can purchase over the net but i rather give them as much bussines as possiable.

    Just about ready to make the first cut ,, I just finished my Corsair and that was the first build i did in 30 years ,
    Looking forward to this mod .
    Many pics to come .

    Family always comes first , hope all is ok .
    P-38 Lightning Brotherhood #21
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  20. #770
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    ORIGINAL: panhandler

    Well here we go i got your mod kit today and i am going over all the material.

    I have everything i need so far except for the stringers , my LHS ran out of them so he is reodering and they should be in this weekend .
    Unfortunatly my LHS is 40 miles from me so i got smart and called first. I know i can purchase over the net but i rather give them as much bussines as possiable.

    Just about ready to make the first cut ,, I just finished my Corsair and that was the first build i did in 30 years ,
    Looking forward to this mod .
    Many pics to come .

    Family always comes first , hope all is ok .
    Everything will be OK. It just takes the whole family pulling together sometimes. This week end was the 'perfect storm' to wash away my dreams of competing at Top Gun this year. It's only one event (albeit a premiere event) and the season has only just begun. Lots of fun will be had this summer.

    Glad you got the box. Did the mailer with the CD come yet? It has tons of pictures to help you. Looking forward to your build.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  21. #771
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    Dang Gary, so sorry to hear of your troubles, and you not going to make the show. Hope it all works out for the best, like you said family first.

    Oh well, I'll snap some shots of TG for ya. Hey just thought of something. Is Zombie big enough for Monster Planes? There's always that show too.


    Well the pins worked out slicker then snot. Took some doing laying out the drill holes but I got em on the first shot. I installed a section of lite ply on the fuse former between the top and cross bar on it. This lets the pin slide down in the retracted position then snap into place. And just like I thought, I can reach in and push the pin back and pop the cover loose from inside the gear bay.

    Thinking it worked so well that I'm going to use a similar set up on the front battery hatches.
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  22. #772
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl

    Dang Gary, so sorry to hear of your troubles, and you not going to make the show. Hope it all works out for the best, like you said family first.

    Oh well, I'll snap some shots of TG for ya. Hey just thought of something. Is Zombie big enough for Monster Planes? There's always that show too.


    Well the pins worked out slicker then snot. Took some doing laying out the drill holes but I got em on the first shot. I installed a section of lite ply on the fuse former between the top and cross bar on it. This lets the pin slide down in the retracted position then snap into place. And just like I thought, I can reach in and push the pin back and pop the cover loose from inside the gear bay.

    Thinking it worked so well that I'm going to use a similar set up on the front battery hatches.
    You're doing some nice work Brad. Show us some pictures when you get a chance.

    Funny you mentioned Monster Planes. Zombie (102") and I (5' 10") were there last year (lots of pictures of Zombie on the net at Monster Planes 2010), and I plan to be there again this year.

    I felt I had a little edge at TG being I had already flown at the new field. Oh well. I will have a whole year of flying my maneuvers for TG, as I will fly the same routine each time I fly Zombie this year. We will have a whole year of flying the new electric gear as well. Not all bad.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  23. #773

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    The mailer came with the box the same day and today the wheels got here. ;}
    I want to see how this mod goes with the rear stab glued on sense my boys gave this P-38 for christmas and i had no idea of your mod kit .
    So i got her ready for her first flight by the end of February.I realy don't want to cut thru the epoxy ( i used alot ).
    Anyway if need be i will seperate it from the booms. I do have her suported prety good with the cradle i built .

    I thought i would post a pic before i get started tonight so there will be a before and after pic.



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    P-38 Lightning Brotherhood #21
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  24. #774
    ram3500-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Nitroplanes 90


    ORIGINAL: panhandler

    The mailer came with the box the same day and today the wheels got here. ;}
    I want to see how this mod goes with the rear stab glued on sense my boys gave this P-38 for christmas and i had no idea of your mod kit .
    So i got her ready for her first flight by the end of February.I realy don't want to cut thru the epoxy ( i used alot ).
    Anyway if need be i will seperate it from the booms. I do have her suported prety good with the cradle i built .

    I thought i would post a pic before i get started tonight so there will be a before and after pic.



    A very nice cradle you have there. I know, from my experience, the work is much easier when the booms are separate, but not impossible the way you want to do it. I would seriously consider separating them though. The time you spend on that job I think you will look back on as time well spent.

    Thanks for the picture. This will be fun to watch.
    Cheers,
    Gary P. / use Steel Powder for ballast not lead. PM me for more information.

  25. #775

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    RE: Nitroplanes 90

    I agree Gary ,,,, off they go .
    P-38 Lightning Brotherhood #21
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