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  1. #376
    Rocketman_'s Avatar
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    On Saturday, a high speed taxi and a rise to about 5 feet, followed by a firm but acceptable touchdown resulted in two circumferential separations in the ABS plastic fuselage where the forward and aft sections are joined. The tail didn't hit the ground. The fuselage is joined at the rear of the wing saddle and it appears that some glue gave way as the rear of the fuselage flexed downward when the main wheels touched down.
    The right and left plywood longerons are intact but they are loose where they pass through the slots in the former. There is no glue on the outer side of either longeron at the former. They are only glued to a tiny strip of the plywood former on the inner side and none on the back side of the former.
    The longerons only provide support for a distance of 4.25 inches rearward of the wing saddle and that seems barely minimal for the heavy tail section that extends over 31 inches rearward from the wing saddle.
    I'll just have to concentrate harder and make smoother landings.

    Didn't someone say that their hatch flew off when they made a tight turn and they thought it might have been due to the fuselage flexing? He may be right because the aft latch on my hatch was released when the wheels touched down.
    ORIGINAL: Staggerflyer
    ... How are those struts working? If they ever come out with the 90deg rotating ones in that size, I'll be getting a set for my P-40. The Lado's cost $230.
    There was no damage done to my cheap retracts or their hardwood mounts and glue joints in the fuselage
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  2. #377
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat


    ORIGINAL: boostoman

    hi guys, I was wandering if I will be able to install a 15cc gas engine on this plane. i would love to build one of these planes but I hate nitro engines. I would prefer gas.
    I hesitated to reply to your question because I like big powerful 2-stroke glow engines and I would find 15cc gas engines for this application to be too feeble for my taste. You might like to wait for other opinions before making your decision.
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  3. #378
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Rocketman, look closely at the second photo. Looks like the plywood separated at the glue joint in the edge of the wing saddle.

    I didn't do much strengthening behind the wing, but it looks like I better check things out. Unfortunately it doesn't look like access is going to be easy. I did make some gussets for all the front formers by cutting and glueing some 3/8" square stock on both sides of each former where the longerons go thru them, as well as doubleing the logeron with 1/8" birch stock. Looking ar your photo, it almost looks like a new horseshoe assy will be best, but make the top/crossover section larger and coat the assy with glue before installing.

    Good luck, and I think you are right, you need to work on "greasing" this plane in. Hard touchdowns will not be good. You do need to carry some power all the way to touchdown. I've learned to fly it all the way down, and flare it carefully.

  4. #379
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    I've only had one gas job, looong time ago. (Quadra 50 powered.) I don't know the size equivalancy, but the thing I've noticed with the gas powered ones at our field is that they seem to be equivalant to four-strokes in power/torque.

  5. #380
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Hi Boostoman,

    you can use two RCGF 15cc gas engine.

    In y case i prefer the sound of two four stroke engines.

  6. #381
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat


    ORIGINAL: Staggerflyer
    ... I did make some gussets for all the front formers by cutting and glueing some 3/8'' square stock on both sides of each former where the longerons go thru them, ...
    I inspected the Tigercat immediately after I got it home and found that most of the damage was snapped glue joints and very little damage to the wood. No wooden parts need to be replaced. I will strengthen the joints between the longerons and formers with extra stock just as you did and maybe add a little extra plywood to the former at the aft end of the longerons.
    No matter how many landings a pilot has made, there will be some that are not so graceful. I've been aboard passenger jets that landed so hard that many overhead luggage compartment doors popped open.

    I had been doing high speed taxi runs with the Tigercat and lifting the wheels just inches off the ground. Out of curiosity, I set takeoff flaps to the amount recommended in the manual and made a run. Well, it sprang off the ground just as I was throttling back and passed in front me at about 5 feet. Since my mind was dead set against flying it around, I let it settle back to the ground but didn't advance the throttle soon enough to cushion the touch down. Darrn heavy ass scale model.

    On the subject of engines, a 15cc gas engine has the same displacement as .91cu-in glow engine but may be only as powerful as a .91 4-stroke glow. Some people are flying Tigercats with .91 4-strokes, so, it can be done. I considered all of the engine options but eliminated gas because I didn't want any additional complication, eliminated 4-stroke glow because the price for 2 larger engines would drive up the cost for this one project and I never pay the premium just for 4-stroke sound. I do like 4-strokes and I have 6 of them. I chose the OS 1.20 AX 2-stroke glow for it's power and simplicity. The pair of them on the Tigercat have a low throaty growl probably due to their size and the large expansion chamber of the mufflers.
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  7. #382

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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    thanks for the info guys

  8. #383
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    ORIGINAL: Rocketman_

    I inspected the Tigercat immediately after I got it home and found that most of the damage was snapped glue joints and very little damage to the wood. No wooden parts need to be replaced. I will strengthen the joints between the longerons and formers with extra stock just as you did and maybe add a little extra plywood to the former at the aft end of the longerons.
    No matter how many landings a pilot has made, there will be some that are not so graceful. I've been aboard passenger jets that landed so hard that many overhead luggage compartment doors popped open.
    I'm thinking the rest of us need to carefully inspect our rear fuselages, too. I was just down in my storage area rearranging to make room for my new GP Waco (supposed to arrive Tues, 5-31-11) and my GP Ryan STA-M (out of production, but my LHS had one on the shelf.) When I picked up my Tigercat fuse I noticed a small white line at the rear of the wing opening where the two pieces meet, like you found. After looking inside more closely, I found a part of my rear longeron bracket broken also. On mine, the vertical piece was gone, while the little piece over the top was still there. I'm wondering now, if that wasn't the reason for the twitchyness in pitch I was experiencing on my last landing???[X(] Good thing our weather isn't good for flying right now. I'm going to make a couple "C" or"[" shaped brackets out of plywood to epoxy in place.

    Sorry for the upside down pic, I can't delete it, for some reason. The rightside up one is there, too.
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  9. #384
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Got my storage space straightened up, so brought the Tigercat's fuse up to the work table to check out the damage. Glad I didn't go flying this afternoon. The wind finally stopped blowing at hurricane strength about 3pm this afternoon, but it is still cloudy and ugly. Anyway, here is what I found after close inspection and pulling on the pieces, including pushing downward slightly on the tail section.

    #1. The former that forms the rear of the wing saddle was broken. The ply had separated on all three sheets from each other. (This is the area I mentioned to you, Rocketman.) This occurred on the right side. The left side is still good.

    #2. The left side longeron is still glued to the former on the left side, even though that side is missing part of the former. The right side, which still has all the wood, is completely separated from the former! It was never glued!!!

    #3. The right side longeron was never glued to the wing saddle former!

    #4. The two soft balsa stringers along the inside of the upper spine and the two small carbon fiber stringers are all that tie the tail assy to the front of the rear wing saddle. In other words, the skin is ALL the strength there. Hi G manuevers NOT recommended!! It's hard to see, but I am squeezing the areas in the center of the two long balsa stringers, where the arrows are pointing. You cannot feel the stringers because they are so soft. (Read WEAK!)


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  10. #385
    Rocketman_'s Avatar
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    The damage to your Tigercat is nearly identical to mine and glue is missing from the same places. I still believe that my Tigercat should have held up better after my not-so-perfect landing. I suspect that ASM made the longerons short so as to avoid excessive tail heaviness but I have no clue as to why we got short changed on glue.

    I completed my repairs last week. I made plywood doublers for the right and left sides of the former where the longerons pass through and added triangular stock in various places. The pictures show what I did.

    I can understand why you fell for the Great Planes Waco, it is one good looking model. There is one flying at my club field and it is highly visible in it's bright yellow skin. It seems to land a little hot for a bipe but maybe thats how the pilot does it.
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  11. #386
    Staggerflyer's Avatar
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    RM, almost exactly the repairs I am planning. Your rear former piece looks more robust than my original plan. I like it. Will make mine that way, also. I am going to try doubleing the balsa stringer, also. Just because of the way I have to handle mine when carrying it up and down the narrow basement stairs, and positioning it on the storage rack,I have to use that part of the fuse as a handhold, along with the vertical stab, and I just know it is stressing that area.

    Yes, that yellow scheme is easy to see. I wish my Staggerwing was yellow, also. The red just turns black anytime the bright sun isn't directly on it from behind me. And black is extremely hard to tell orientation on. I don't want to even try counting how many times I've had to make a correction because of lost orientation on it. I plan on trying to change the registration number to my AMA number with the American "N" in front. N55417, or maybe N417DH. The Staggerwing has the old style NC55417DH. I do that with most of my civilian type aircraft.

  12. #387
    Rocketman_'s Avatar
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    I flew the F7F Tigercat for the first time a couple of days ago. You guys were right, the ASM Tigercat is a very good flier, even in a moderate breeze.
    The next day, Wednesday, was not a flying day. There was a powerful tornado, a rarity in this state. My area only got strong winds and thunder storms.
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  13. #388
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat


    ORIGINAL: Rocketman_

    I flew the F7F Tigercat for the first time a couple of days ago. You guys were right, the ASM Tigercat is a very good flier, even in a moderate breeze.
    The next day, Wednesday, was not a flying day. There was a powerful tornado, a rarity in this state. My area only got strong winds and thunder storms.
    Great! It really isn't anything to be 'scaird of, lol. Flies like most other aircraft of it's size. It's just that there are two buzz saws up front instead of one, lol.

    Got mine fixed last Monday, hope to fly it this weekend. Supposed to be good weather.

  14. #389
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat


    ORIGINAL: Staggerflyer


    ORIGINAL: Rocketman_

    I flew the F7F Tigercat for the first time a couple of days ago. You guys were right, the ASM Tigercat is a very good flier, even in a moderate breeze.
    The next day, Wednesday, was not a flying day. There was a powerful tornado, a rarity in this state. My area only got strong winds and thunder storms.
    Great! It really isn't anything to be 'scaird of, lol. Flies like most other aircraft of it's size. It's just that there are two buzz saws up front instead of one, lol.

    Got mine fixed last Monday, hope to fly it this weekend. Supposed to be good weather.
    Well done guys. Keep it happening.
    I have yet to start repairs on mine. Still very busy with the Spitfire and the 109.

    Cheers,

    Brad
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Progress update:
    I had to drop the idea of installing the electric E-Flite 1.20 size retracts because I couldn't turn the spring coil out of the way on one of the retracts and the nose retract is too "tall" to allow the wheel to fully retract into the fuse. So in go the wire gear and on we go. I have re-enforced the areas in the fuse that you folks have described as weak. I have all servos and radio equipment in and surfaces are set for travel. I made my own standoffs for the E-Flite 110 motors from aluminum tubing that I got from a local machine shop. I am waiting on 3" socket head bolts for the motor mounts. Soooo I should be able to launch as soon as I can finish extending my runway for some more runout room. As you guys have mentioned you have to be careful in handling this plane as it feels very fragile when moving fully assembled. I can't seem to find a comfortable spot to grab and lift without crushing something.
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  16. #391
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat


    ORIGINAL: Lebus1

    I can't seem to find a comfortable spot to grab and lift without crushing something.
    Inboard of the engines on the leading edge of the wing,,,, but still very carefully

    Cheers,

    Brad
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  17. #392
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Brad, its good to hear that you haven't abandoned your Tigercat even though you're enjoying your other models. Before my first take off I visualized the result of your engine-out incident and wondered why I hadn't brought a garbage bag with me to the field. I made two flights and sure as hell the right engine quit during the second flight.

    The first take off was quick from the paved runway and the climb out to a safe altitude was fast. What a relief! Then I throttled back and got busy trimming the ailerons and elevators and getting the feel of the plane. Throttled back to idle and fed in up elevator until the nose dropped but it didn't snap over. Flew it around for awhile then made a right hand turning approach with a steep decent to the runway and made a smooth landing. I was so busy with it that I didn't remember that it had retracts until I was taxiing in.

    Being impressed with the power of the twin OS 1.20AX engines, I couldn't help myself and went vertical on take off for the 2nd flight. Yeah, I know it was non-scale but I sure did like it.
    I don't really know if the climb is unlimited because I leveled off when it started to pull to the right. By then I was more relaxed and started doing split S's and consecutive axial rolls.

    It suddenly occurred to me that it had retracts. With my finger on the retract switch I throttled back to the lower mid range for a long slow straight run but it got slower than I intended so I advanced the throttle. That's when my spotters, who were my wife and the airport manager, yelled "you have an engine out".
    By then it was vividly clear to me because it pulled to the right and dropped the wing and the nose so I let it continue to drop to gain speed for my steep right hand turning approach for landing. It landed smoothly. I was able to restart the engine by hand immediately after landing.

    What a rotten disappointment. Stopping in the mid range, what the #@%! kind of crap is that? I'd heard that these AX series OS engines are finicky and are not equal in reliability to the older FX series. Silly me, I thought I could properly adjust them. I had adjusted both engines until they would idle for well over 3 minutes on the ground and still accelerate on a throttle burst from idle to max without stopping. On the day of the two flights I checked the top end to make sure they were not too lean and they showed no sign of distress at any throttle setting during the flights until the right one just upped and quit. Maybe the top end wasn't lean enough.
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  18. #393
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    You had a good camera operator there. Nice pics. And nice recovery.

    Just another of the many reasons I've given up on fuel fed engines! And I'm a mechanic! Supposed to be nice weather Sunday. Hope to fly again.

    A couple pics of my repair.

    I didn't do anything with the stringers on top, couldn't get my hand in to fit anything.

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  19. #394
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    ORIGINAL: Brad330l


    ORIGINAL: Lebus1

    I can't seem to find a comfortable spot to grab and lift without crushing something.
    Inboard of the engines on the leading edge of the wing,,,, but still very carefully

    Cheers,

    Brad
    What Brad said. Also, with full palm of hand you can lift on fuse under center of wing, using other hand to hold/control nose. Feel for formers in fuse. When the wing is off the fuse, you can do the same from the tail, but always do the lifting from the fuse under the wing area. The wing center section is always lifted from between the engines at the FRONT of the wing. Always use the palm of the hand, not the fingers, or you'll find all the weak spots.

  20. #395
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Just a quick off topic. I recieved my new Great Planes Waco Classic Tues. Now to start gathering equipment for it.

  21. #396
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Staggerflyer,
    Your modifications look strong and should add stiffness to the floppy fuselage and reduce what you believe to be the cause of your elevator sensitivity.

    I didn't find my Tigercat to be too pitch sensitive even though my CG is at least quarter of an inch farther aft than recommended and I'm not using exponential on any control surface. Maybe it is because I'm accustomed to flying models that are far more responsive than the Tigercat. Also, I didn't use the flaps at any time and that might have avoided any change in pitch sensitivity.
    I can remember having all kinds of trouble trying to land a tail heavy 3D model in the wind until I discovered that I'd forgotten to turn off spoilerons and high rate on the elevators. That's why I'm guessing that flaps may have some effect.

    ORIGINAL: Staggerflyer
    ... I've given up on fuel fed engines! And I'm a mechanic!
    LOL@the mechanic giving up on fuel fed engines. I Gave a brief (very brief) thought to going electric on the Tigercat before I bought it but I'm just not ready to give up those good smelling, smokey, noisy, oily recips. Many mechanically inclined folks just love to watch engines run even if they are mounted on something stationary and doing absolutely nothing. I suspect that these are the guys who burn gallons of fuel/gas doing very long break-ins on the bench.
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  22. #397
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat


    ORIGINAL: Rocketman_

    Staggerflyer,
    Your modifications look strong and should add stiffness to the floppy fuselage and reduce what you believe to be the cause of your elevator sensitivity.

    I didn't find my Tigercat to be too pitch sensitive even though my CG is at least quarter of an inch farther aft than recommended and I'm not using exponential on any control surface. Maybe it is because I'm accustomed to flying models that are far more responsive than the Tigercat. Also, I didn't use the flaps at any time and that might have avoided any change in pitch sensitivity.
    I can remember having all kinds of trouble trying to land a tail heavy 3D model in the wind until I discovered that I'd forgotten to turn off spoilerons and high rate on the elevators. That's why I'm guessing that flaps may have some effect.
    Rocketman,
    Yes, they stiffened the tail immensely. I'm sure this was the cause of the pitch sensetivity, as it was never that way before. The previous days flight had ended with a rather rough landing, as I had let it get to slow when using full flaps for the first time. I had not known about, nor checked for the loose longerons yet, but I'm sure that was the problem. Hopefully will find out tomorrow. The flaps DEFINITELY make a difference. If you are not used to using flaps that much, I suggest using only 10-15 degrees on the first notch, then no more than 45 degrees on full flap. Make your first landing with just the first notch. (That's if your radio uses a switch, instead of a knob.) You don't need much, if any power on first notch, but they do provide the lift at lower speed. Full flaps also add drag, and power is definitely needed on the approach. The final slowdown is rather sudden, that's why I dropped it in kind of hard the first time. The landing in the video of the maiden flight was with just first notch of flaps.

    Definitely know what you are talking about with tailheavy aircraft. My Staggerwing's first flight was a real hand full because I had not read the balancing instruction thoroughly. WOW!![X(][X(] I couldn't believe I got it down safely! It took two, yes TWO lbs (32oz) of weight screwed to the firewall to balance it properly!! I had balanced it rightside up, straight up from the point on the LOWER wing (proper point, but should have been done UPSIDE DOWN.) It was my experience from flying helicopters that allowed my thumbs to work fast enough without much thinking ahead about what I was doing. WHEW! (No, I never advanced to 3D on my heli's, because I had changed jobs while learning, and suddenly had NO time to practice.) That's the main reason I've gone back to fixed wing, and strictly ARF's, as well as electric all the way. I want to be able to build it quickly, pull it out and fly, then quickly disassemble and store, without all the cleaning, repair from vibration and fuel soaking, etc, etc. Still love the sound of a good four stroke engine in full song, and a twin sounds even better, but. I still have the OS FS160FT that I originally had in the Staggerwing. It is over at my flying bud's house, because he is still using his in his SiG 1/4 scale full wing cub. Mine was in the clipped wing version for almost 10 years. We built them both at the same time. But mine was mid-aired and retired. We plan on building a Ziroli D-18/C-45 Twin Beech someday and using them in it.

  23. #398

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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Progress report:
    Mostly complete. I have to install the ESC's and battery wiring. As soon as my runway is lengthed I'll be flyin. As you can see I went with the wire gear for now. If the plane survives the summer I may install retracts. I still want electrics but if I have to I will install pnuematics. I have the MAS 16X10 propellers on is a pusher and it looks like I have about 1" ground clearance. I will go with that as I have glow planes with less and I haven't broken props from landing normally(on wheels not nose) yet. I will put the motors on my amp meter once the ESC's are installed and battery wiring complete to check out amp draw. I am sure it will be in the 60 - 80 amp range as my P-51 with the same motors running a 16X10 pulls 80 at full power.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Nothing Runs Like a Deere

  24. #399
    Staggerflyer's Avatar
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat

    Lebus1, are you running 5 cells or 6? And what motors again? My Rimfire 120s would shut off at half throttle on 6 cells. 5 cells ok. Otherwise, looks good.


    Will post video link to flight this past Sunday after I get it uploaded.

    Video uploaded.

    http://youtu.be/K4pl0TveBbY

  25. #400
    Brad330l's Avatar
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    RE: ASM F-7F Tigercat


    ORIGINAL: Staggerflyer

    Lebus1, are you running 5 cells or 6? And what motors again? My Rimfire 120s would shut off at half throttle on 6 cells. 5 cells ok. Otherwise, looks good.


    Will post video link to flight this past Sunday after I get it uploaded.

    Video uploaded.

    http://youtu.be/K4pl0TveBbY
    Wow Staggerflyer,, that thing has some power!!

    Brad
    Visit pilbaraaeromodellers.com
    Spitfire Brotherhood # 5


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