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  1. #1

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    RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    Well I have been thinking about this for quite some time now, and looking at other people's thoughts on this subject, not really concerned about the financial side to things, just design, and I have compiled this design.
    Basically, starting with the engines and tilt rotor mechanism, well, (I wasn't sure whether you could program the helicopter settings of a computer transmiter with two modes, if you could it would make this much easier), the simplest way to connect the two would be to have both attatched to a solid rotating shaft, turned by some modified motors or servos, (BIG SERVOS) possibly driven by a worm drive, engines would have to be i/c, I just don't think the power to weight ratio could be cut enough to use electric, but if you think differently please say, yaw in hover I think could be controled by an electric motor with a fan unit built in to the tail, since rudder wouldn't have much effect, and rigged with the rudder channel to alter direction dependant on which way you pushed the stick, throttle control would adjust height in hover, so bassiclly the only controls used in hover would be throtle, rudder, and rotor tilt, however this may leave problems with roll, so dihedral could be built into the wings to counter this. Huge three bladed props with heavily geared down engines. Thats the basis of my design, what do you think? any input would be appreciated.
    Thanks Chris.

  2. #2
    Gravityisnotmyfriend's Avatar
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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    If you mixed the throttles to the right stick while hovering, you could adjust roll by increasing one throttle and/or decreasing the other. I'm not sure if the difference in torque would cause the craft to unintentionally yaw, it seems like it would. I'm assuming your going to tilt the pods to get forward and aft movement, right? The fan in the tail would work, but it seems a little to complicated ( I think you'll have enough complications as is). wonder how the full scale Osprey changes yaw.
    The mathematician sees the glass as twice as big as it needs to be. The engineer sees it as full with a Safety Factor of 2.

  3. #3

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    the full scale opsrey has twin rudders and the 3 blade props on it when spinning almost touch the fuselage. Look it up on google there is a site dedicated to it.

  4. #4

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    right well I think the full size one yaws by having seperatly rotating engine pods which simply roll in opposite directions to induce yaw, but I am very confident that my fan in the rudder would work well and look very stylish, (I'm only 17 and like my planes to look cool), seperatly controlled engines would add a whole new complication to the design so I want to avoid that because It would devote another channel and both stick on the controller and my design I want to limit to a 6 channel radio system. But to my new idea I thought of this morning when I thought about how to convert to normal flight which I got the idea from an episode of Model Mania, in this episode they had a computer transmiter with a helicopter setup with two modes, one for normal flight which would just be devoted to hover flight, but then a second mode with a mix where when increasing throttle the blades would increase/decrease in pitch allowing for different manouvres, I think with a normal first mode setup for hover flight the osprey model could be easily programed with a throttle/engine tilt mix, where as the throttle is increased the the engine pods progresively angle forward, this would allow for reliable transition from hover to normal flight, however the model would quite likely be limited to landing vertically, normal landings being to fast, a threshold would have to be found where when changing from hover to normal flight, the throttle didn't cut too much causing loss in altitude. Well what do you think?

  5. #5

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey


  6. #6

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    http://www.gressaero.com/

    Check out this one.

    No one is using "puffers" I think this would add a lot better control.

    Keep us posted on your progress.

    -THX

  7. #7

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    The gas versions of RC VTOL's are very involved. I found it easier to start with an electric version which is a fast way of testing your theories easy and cheap. My twin VTOL electric hovers and transitions very well. It is easy to build but requires a comp TX with flight mode switching for tilting turning on and off gyros and servos etc.
    Kingsley
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  8. #8

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    vtolman, it looks like you're holding the tail of the model with your hand in hover. Is that necessary?

  9. #9

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    My latest twin electric VTOL hovers and transitions to forward flight very easy and piroettes in the air, and even faster on the groung. It will reverse taxi and do unusual maneuvers in the air. It flys similar to a fixed pitch heli, but it will glide and land without power.
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  10. #10

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    thanks for clearing that up vtolman, even retroactively - by adding the third photo to your first post. And in your last post you've not only removed your hand but the control vanes as well. That is some progress!

  11. #11

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    Maybe I'm a dumb %$*@# but I don't find anything easy about VTOL. And, as far as I know, nor has anyone else in the last 50 years. [] Vtolman, would you care to share some details regarding your control system?

  12. #12

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    HEY I'm sorry, I guess after 9 years of messing with these vtol's I now assume its easy since I have discovered a fue minor answers.
    Even so there is no rocket science to it.
    This concept will hover no mater what it looks like as long as it balances
    on the spar, I have previously made one with the motors in the center, looking like a normal twin aircraft, and it worked almost as good.
    As for it flying, design your own layout, and just keep it light.
    I have made 3 different designs and they all fly.
    RADIO GEAR 5 chanel - 1 TX program mix slaves the rear elevator servo on say channel 5 to the elevator chanel. However this model will fly without the rear elevator (4 chanels) but it loses a bit of the pitch control only in the inbound transition, requiring a different flying technic, but hovering and flying are OK.
    2 external mixers (I used VEE-TAIL omni )and 2 gyros are required.
    One gyro stabilizes roll and the other controlls pitch, and strangely enough yaw stabilization is not needed, unlike a heli..
    MY SPECIFICATIONS TESTED
    MOTORS - AXI 2212/26 (E) out-runner brushless 57 grams approx-1000 KVA 12 amp rated (low revs and high torque).
    PROPELLORS - MPI MAXX PRODUCTS counter rotating pair10 X 4.5 slow flyer. Prop savers with 2 o-rings each. (from toddsmodels.com)
    ESC CONTROLLER - Castle Creations newer phoenix 25 Amp with 3 Amp BEC (to run all the electronics) lithium low volt cut out programmable
    BATTERIES TESTED - Polyquest PQ-2100XP-3S 2100ma 20 C rated 167 grams or PQ-B2600N-SP 3S 2600ma 12 C rated 192 grams.
    EXTERNAL MIXERS - 2 VEE-TAIL OMNI mixers 10 grams each (reversing, end points, offsets, servo slow, exponential,fail safe etc).
    GYROS - strangely some new cheap gyros did not work sufficiently. I used old Arcamax peg1000 gyros which hold there signal longer as the model does not pitch as quick as a heli tail responds. I dont know what gyros work best so all I can suggest is BENCH TESTING a servo will travel approx 120-150 deg as you continuously rotate the gyro in one direction - some cheap gyros return the servo to soon or will lose center, and will only give about 60-90 deg travel, this will be insufficient to hover with.
    SERVOS - MOTOR TILTING servos- 2@ Hobbico CS-35 mini BB torque-55oz-in, 4kg/cm HIGH TORQUE & FAST
    AIRCRAFT STRUCTURE - ΒΌ" balsa tail and fuselage, 2 @ 8mm diameter carbon fiber tubes (tilting motor spar tube and fuselage tube) light arrow shafts
    WEIGHT - 920-950 grams (without film covering)
    DIMENSIONS - wingspan 48" 1220mm, center wing 29" 725mm, motor spacing 985mm, length 43" 1100mm, height 9" 230mm,
    C of G - on the tilt spar tube or maximum ΒΌ" in front of the C of G -30% of wing cord position WING - Clark Y 7" x 7/8" thick (180x20mm)
    STATIC THRUST - max 1300 grams -- 45 onces
    EFFICIENCY - 15-18 Amps at hover (tested), 14 Amps flying (a wild guess), 30 Amps at peak power (tested), using 80% of 2100 or 2600ma cells 7.5 - 9.5 minutes hovering minimum (tested), 11-13 minutes plus flying (a guess).
    (WARNING disable one red or positive wire on one only ESC lead plug so only one ESC is supplying the BEC power)
    The TX elevator stick both tilts the motors forward and moves the rear
    elevator. The rudder stick moves the motors opposite each other only about 10-15 deg for yaw. The aileron stick mixes 12-15 percent extra throttle to each motor for roll. Throttle is both motors together.
    THE KEY IS the throttle ESC mixer plugs into the gyro, as you can not mix from your TX unless you used 4 gyros I think?.
    Like wise the yaw / pitch mixer (tilting motor servos) plugs into one gyro also)
    I hope this helps someone !
    Kingsley


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  13. #13

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    vtolman,

    You're right, VTOL is not rocket science. It's HARDER ! .

    Rockets have been flying for decades, but I don't see any VTOL vehicles flying out there that don't have either cyclic (helicopters and the V-22) or secondary puffer jets (Harrier, X/F-35 JSF), or don't have more than two props/fans/devices (Draganflyer, Moller Skycar, Canadair CL-84, Doak VZ-4, Piazecki AirJeep etc., and a whole slew of X-planes from the 50's and 60's etc., etc.) for enabling hover stability and control. And, except for the 4-rotor Draganflyer, none of the aircraft in parentheses in the last group are - or ever were - in production.

    Gary

  14. #14

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    Well, it's been really hard for me. You could spend a lifetime, full-time, doing this stuff.

    But mostly because it's fun. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    Ok point taken Gary--- looking back it wasn't easy to set up my vtol's, but I guess the early days of full size heli's were hard also, and to the uninitiated, the new 3D rc heli's are a bit like rocket science to set up correctly.
    I know setting up my heli's, even for basic sport flying chews up my time.
    Having said this ALL of my VTOL's have fixed pitch props with NO cyclic and NO collective, but I do fly heli's with these features and I do understand thieir complexity may enhance a VTOL's performance some what, however I have proven to myself this is not at all necessary for a rc model twin electric VTOL with direct tilting motors or a single nitro VTOL with hover vanes below the prop wash.
    I do believe (my opinion only without any testing) a nitro twin engined fixed pitch prop VTOL will also now work fine due to the better power to weight motors with fast throttle responce and a correct mixing and gyro setup.
    So I am ready to help anyone make and setup a single or twin VTOL plane (electric or nitro) with whatever advice I can offer.
    I am surprised to find there is such a little following or feadback and information on model rc VTOL's.
    Should we be looking in UAV (unmanned aerial vehicles) forums for new info to help us?
    I have not searched there yet!
    Kingsley

  16. #16

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    I remember my art & design teacher saying it takes a lot of work to make something simple.

    Of course he wasn't talking about R/C VTOLs, but I think it applies here as well. And this is new for everyone.

  17. #17

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    VIDEO LINK TO IT HOVERING IN A CIRCLE http://designerimages.net/Video/RC/R...deos%20010.asf

  18. #18

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey


    ORIGINAL: vtolman

    So I am ready to help anyone make and setup a single or twin VTOL plane (electric or nitro) with whatever advice I can offer.
    I am surprised to find there is such a little following or feadback and information on model rc VTOL's.
    Should we be looking in UAV (unmanned aerial vehicles) forums for new info to help us?
    I have not searched there yet!
    Kingsley
    Dude, it's the other way around. THe micro-uav industry is borrowing heavily from our hobby. If you have worked out a solid tilt-rotor UAV you should look into patenting unique aspects of it and becoming a UAV consultant. Having seen the USMC dragoneye up close, it surely aint rocket science. In fact it's much simpler than most electrics. Seriously, all it takes is the confidence in what you know, and these days people will quite possibly pay you for it.

    Oh, and BTW, that thing definitely shows promise to be the basis for a scale V-22

    John
    John

  19. #19

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    vtolman...I am wondering if you could help me build a vtol. I'm an ME at northwestern (the midwest's version of harvard/yale/cambridge/oxford). anyway, we dont have an aero department here so I'm kind of lacking in faculty resources. Initially I wanted to build an autonomous electric plane...however the idea of vtol intrigues me, and i had planned to apply what id learned in the uav into a heli later for close quarters maneuvering..this would save me the step, and give me something way more impressive. basically I have two questions: one, how much do you think I'd have to scale up your model to be able to carry the extra electronics...mainly a microprocessor, servo controller,(RC would serve as a back up for testing), 3 axis accelerometer, gps, 2-4 ultrasonic range finders, battery..all told 1-2lbs..possibly less if I could avoid the gps. also, I would need 10+ minutes run time. Second, how much time do you think it would take to get a vtol working. experience wise, i could make a brick fly if I wanted to.. and my dad is a computer engineer so he's pretty good at solid state gyros and what not...just wondering if this will take a couple years to just get to fly, or if i'd be able to do it over the summer.

    Thanks,
    iamscottym

    s-mueller@northwestern.edu

  20. #20

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    Vtolman, I am currently building a vtol craft only instead of props it will be using a ducted fan instead, well, 4 to be exact. there will be two wing mounted fans, and then there will be 2 others in the rear of the craft that pivot as well for equal thrust for hovering. I have the fuselage built, and im adding wings similar to the V-22 Osprey's, but i have now run into the issue of getting the fans to pivot, and i dont know how to do it. any feedback would be much appreciated

    Thanks

    Ian

  21. #21
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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    Kingsley, vtolman,

    Congratulations man! That is a winner.

    I've been thinking about a scale V22 for a couple years but haven't cut metal yet. I've been browsing though. It sounds to me that you may be unaware how many people on this and other forums have been trying, and failing, to do what you have demonstrated in your video. You have, either deliberately or by chance, solved the controllability problem. You've got a winner there, it certainly has potential.

    Also, I agree completely with what Johng has said. Well done.

    Cheers from the Barfly.
    _/ _/ _/ R/C Flying...... The most fun you can have with your clothes on! _/ _/ _/

  22. #22

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    To IAMCOTTYM
    Start with finding out what props are available, unless you like hand making a matched pair of oppossite pitch props or paying huge dollars to get them custom made.
    These prop sizes then determine what is the most efficient motors, battery weight, model size etc, then you can figure out the total weight to get the 10 min duration.
    Thats how I did it.
    Most VTOL'S are marginal at carrying weight at possibly 10-15 % so your 2lb of electrics needs a 13 to 20lb model.
    Unless you have buckets of money, you need to access lighter electrics decause a 20lb model is huge dollars and too complex.
    Knowing what I do plus if all your specs are worked out prior it would then take 4 weeks solid to build that large VTOL say 150 - 200 hours, or 3 to 6 months if you have a full time job and are advance skilled at custom building and recieve help with info.
    My simple twin electric in this post took about 30 hours of head scratchin building but about 3 times as much figuring out the specs and sourcing and ordering parts etc (5 weeks total from memory without help) but if I had to replicate it probably - 15 hours making.
    Ian
    I found sail winch drum servos good for large tilt servos and/or you can gear them down as the picture and you can use a transmitter with servo slow control for timing the tilt or buy a inline servo speed controller.
    Barfly
    Control issues are overcome by gyros which have special features eg CSM SL560


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  23. #23
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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    vtolman,

    I reckon there's more to it than just gyros, your total package (gyros, V tail mixers, ESC's etc.) seems to work well together. Your set-up skill obviously is good , too.

    What machine is the sail winch servo going in? Servo City has a servo power gearbox very much like that, ideal for those who can't fabricate their own. I planned to use one for engine tilt on a Vertigo I have plans for.

    Cheers from the Barfly.

    _/ _/ _/ R/C Flying...... The most fun you can have with your clothes on! _/ _/ _/

  24. #24

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    Barfly
    The large geared tilt function servo was for a 7ft VTOL centre mounted engine (saito FA-180 tested or OS 160 not tested) 18x5 zinger producing a huge thrust to weight ratio and the design was based losely on the Vertigo design without the nacelle (prop cowling)
    I have since abandoned the project and sold most of the parts, due to my lack of interest as I would only be going over old ground and proving nothing new.
    These large internal combustion VTOL projects swollow up lots of valuable time which is better spent on say 5 or more different less complex electric VTOL testbeds which produce more results much quicker.
    Chears Kingsley

  25. #25

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    RE: RC VTOL cpable Osprey

    vtolman, woud there be any way to modify a standard futaba servo for use as a tilt servo? im just looking at my options, because im trying to build this thing on a very small budget. Thanks for you help.
    Ian


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