sschwell

I have a WH 35% Giles that I like but I'm having problems doing a clean snap. The plane loses a lot of energy and wants to over-rotate. Any suggestions you all can offer as to set up, throws, CG, or any special tricks to help me get a clean snap with this plane would be greatly appreciated.

Schwell

rctom

Probably two separate problems.

Over rotating is a problem with the big thick airfoil used on the Giles which is what makes it fly so mice in all other modes. You have to time the release of the sticks or use opposite ailerons to stop it (which I find very difficult).

Losing energy is probably because you use too much rudder. Set up a low rate on rudder and dial it down until you get a clean snap.

TF

imacflyr3

Schwell,
Tom, if I may, this sounds like a classic "buried" snap. This usually happens when you pull the sticks to the corners and hold them there 'til the snap gets to where you want it. Unfortunately, it's hard to stop and kills the forward momentum. What I am learning to do to fix this is to "fly" the elevator through the snap.

In other words, you initiate the snap with elevator first followed very closely with aileron and rudder. About the time you reach full aileron/rudder input you begin to let out the elevator. The right TX stick will move in sort of a pointed oval shaped path beginning and ending at the center when done correctly. Of course this will all take place in the span of about 1 second at the most. If you manage to time this correctly, your snaps will use far less energy and stop where you want them. This method is almost required when snapping on an upline!

Good Luck!

Gary H.
Rantoul, Il

cstevec

My Feedback: (1)

Mike McConnville just did an article on this very problem which is in the newest MAN. As imacflyer3 stated, the correction is found in the elevator & how you use it. I have my 260 set up with one rate for flying everything in the sequence, except for snaps. I had to create a special mix with reduced elevator & reduced rudder to fly the snaps with. I find myself being a "stick banger" when it comes to snaps & in the normal flight mode I could make my 260 stop in midair!

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

My Giles is about the cleanest-snapping plane I have ever flown. I find that modulating the elevator helps control everything. I can't believe how nicely it snaps on a line, especially 45's and verticals.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I agree with the buried snap condition. Too much rudder travel makes it even worse.

I've found the Giles to be utterly predictable in the exit of a snap, and it maintains plenty of energy, with the correct inputs and planning. As with BTerry, I think the Giles is one of the best performers for snaps on any line that I have ever flown.

sschwell

Thanks for all of the suggestions. Just for a little background - I do snaps as recommended by Don Sczcur in his excellent article. It's also the way as described in the excellent video available on DOD. I pulse the elevator and as I unload the elavator I bring in rudder then ailerons. As the elevator approaches neutral I neutralize the rudder then finish by releasing ailerons. This produces very clean snaps on my Showtime which I practice on a lot. BTW - I'm using low rates on everthing when snapping from horizontal. Maybe as Tom says my low rate rudder is a bit much. I'll try to use less rudder and see what happens.

BTERRY -are you flying the WH Giles or another model? Just curious because as Tom said the WH airfoil is pretty thick which definately will effect the entry and exit from a snap.

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

I have the WH Giles, ZDZ 80 on a can, it is the white/red plane in my avatar.

Because it has the thick airfoil it seems to require a greater AOA to get the flow separation and snap. Not enough elevator and it doesn't snap, too much and it buries and falls off line. When people fly my plane for the first time they either can't snap it, or they bury it. After a few tries they get the hang of it. When the elevator throw is just right and timing the rudder/aileron application as you mention I find the snap very controlled and repeatable. It snaps with the control of a pattern plane IMHO. Much like the old Bridi Kaos years ago.

The amount of elevator isn't super-critical in the snap, but there is a definite happy range. More elevator makes it faster, less slows it right down. This "happy range" is actually wider than the "happy range" on many other planes I have flown - my custom thin-airfoiled Hangar 9 Extra, a stock H9 Sukhoi, QQ 104" Yak, AW 105" Edge, etc. To be fair, the AW Edge is very nice to snap because the snap is SO SLOW while those long wings rotate, so that is a close second. The other planes mentioned have a narrower allowable aoa range on the snap.

Also, I find tweaking the control throws/expo rates easier than tweaking my fingers. Sometimes a little programming helps things a bit. Slightly forward CG can help the plane snap better too.

I spend an entire flight at the start of the season perfecting the snaps and once I have the feel for it, the snaps really begin to flow. Positive and negative snaps, left and right, in various loading situations (upright/inverted horizontal, 45 up and down, verticals, etc). I use high rates on the rudder, but have a lot of expo on the "low rate" setting (with triple rates).

Sometimes a blip of opposite rudder at the end will stop the snap with a noticable "hesitation" that I think looks pretty cool.

I am rambling now. In summary, I now find it easy to keep it on a line during a snap.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I don't know if I have any valuable input to offer, but this is what works for me.

Good luck!

Brett

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

Here is a better photo. I am on the right, with brothers in the middle and Dad on the left.

Birddog-RCU

My Feedback: (62)

Brett,

Was that picture taken in St. George, UT? Where?

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

yup, the rest of my family lives there.

BrandoUno

My Feedback: (2)

Well, the rest of us live in SLC, but we like St Jorge, esp. during winter! EXTRA FLYING TIME YAY!

discusmike

My Feedback: (2)

I'm flying the 28%edge,im just getting really use to how it flies,i have not put it into a spin yet,was wondering how this plane reacts in spin/inverted spin??

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

The Edge fly's just exactly as you tell it to fly. In ANY spin, the proper recovery ALWAYS includes the use of rudder opposite to that used for the spin entry. A good flat spin often requires the addition of power. In that event, the removal of thrust will aid in the recovery. Pushing the nose over while neutralizing any aileron input also permits and speeds the recovery.

In any case, the Edge is an easy one to exit a spin.

However, failure to use opposite rudder to exit a well developed inverted flat spin with the Giles can get pretty exciting[X(] But then again, that's part of the fun!!

sschwell

Bterry - thanks for your detailed response. Let me make sure I understand you though. I did expect to have to tweek my elevator rate a bit for my snaps but I'm confused about the rudder and ailerons. I'm guessing low rate on ailerons. Did you say you were using high rate rudder? I was thinking that maybe my low rate rudder was still too much.

If you can provide me with deflection measurements for all of your surfaces for snaps that would save me a lot of trouble. I'm guessing 15-20 degrees for elevator, 20-25 for ailerons, and maybe 35 degrees on the rudder. Thanks a bunch.

sschwell

I just wanted to close this thread by thanking everyone who chimed in, especially BTerry and Tom whose suggestions were excellent. I reduced the elevator and rudder throws and my snaps are much cleaner now. I was surprised at how little elevator I ended up using. I don't think it's even 15 degrees. This is especially surprisng given that the plane is set up a bit nose heavy. Thanks again everyone.

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

sschwell, I am sorry for not responding to your question. I have newborn twins at home now (3 weeks old!) and don't have much free time.

I also found that decreasing the elevator rate helps the snaps. Otherwise, it snaps too fast. I am very glad you got yours to work so well! Looking at the numbers this doesn't seem like it should be a good-flying plane (somewhat high wing loading in this size range), but it is very sweet.

I replaced the tail wheel setup because the original broke while in the trailer. Now it is a bit easier to land as the tail sits a bit higher.