marc morin

My Feedback: (1)

Hello fellow Wild Hare flyers .I have this problem with landing this light plane It will either float right down the run way at a touch above idle or at Idle will stall in ground effect .Sometimes it will just grease those landings when there is no wind.I was thinking of adding up aileron to kill some of the lift anybody try this approach?

Rfabbre

My Feedback: (6)

Haven't tried it but it sure sounds like it would work.

rctom

Where is your CG? If it's too far forward it will want to keep going and then nose down. When balanced properly it should settle in after it loses flying speed. More nose weight means you must carry more energy into the last part of the flight and that the nose will drop when the wing stops flying.

TF

marc morin

My Feedback: (1)

Tom C.G. is at the factory recommended could add some tail weight but do like the way it flies now,perfectly balanced in the air except for inverted just the slightest forward stick.

sailing1

My Feedback: (134)

I have this plane and it is a floater but not hard to land if set up right. I agree with Tom about the balance. You also might want to check your thrust lines. Mine needed one degree of down thrust. The only times I ever had problems like you are seeing was when I had it set up a little tail heavy. Then it would float down the runway till it lost flying speed and then tip stall. After the thrust adjustment and moving the balance a little forward it pretty much lands itself.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

If you're using a 10 pitch prop or a Vess "B", get rid of it and go to an 8" or "A" pitch. See if you can idle the engine down more and still have a safe and comfortable idle. Balance at 3-1/2" and work back a little if need be.

It sounds like the plane is one of, or a combination of, those three things. Prop, idle speed, and C/G location. She truly is normally an extremely easy plane to land in most wind conditions.

Rfabbre

My Feedback: (6)

Is it the version 1 or 2?

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

It shouldn't matter. Version II is lighter than the original and will land at an even slower speed. If the plane is brought in too fast or is nose heavy she'll use up a lot of runway trying to get her on the ground.

marc morin

My Feedback: (1)

The Extra is v.2 I'm running Wild hare prop 23/8 on 3W 60 I have to agree that it is a superb flying machine right from the first flight I was comfortable with it just used to flying heavier planes that would have a sink rate ,but this one is such a floater that was why I was wondering if up aileron would work on the landing approach,but I'll try the C.G. change first.Thanks guys.

rctom

Some reflexed ailerons might do what you want but I caution you to do it a tiny bit at a time, it's real easy to over do it.

TF

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

The problem I have in using reflexed ailerons for a landing is that they cause earlier air separation from the wing than flaps or a straight wing does. So just a little extra control input at the wrong time and you'll severely stall the plane close to the ground. Worst situation at the worst time with terrible results.

A good way to see the negative effects of reflexed ailerons would be to take the plane up high and try some medium steep turns. Say between 25 and 35 degrees of bank. They can snap in a heartbeat. Better to plan the approach a little farther out than you have been and slow her down. Most of the light aerobats have a fairly flat approach profile compared to other planes. You can't point them down and pull up to land unless you planned on a parachute type landing and that's a whole different story. They will float a long ways with the speed obtained in the steep approach. There's always the use of slips as well.

sailing1

My Feedback: (134)

One thing that helped me with my extra was just getting it up a couple of mistakes high and seeing how slow I could fly the plane. As Pat mentioned these planes approach fairly flat so practicing flying them slow really helps with your approaches. It's fun too!

rctom

I usually recommend that you learn how to wag the rudder a little, this will scrape off speed very quickly.

TF

marc morin

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks guys I have tried flying slowly and it is fun the plane just hangs ther with a lot of elevator input and the slightest amount of throttle.All this input on reflexed aileron was what I needed I think I'll play with C.G.

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

A couple of seconds for the suggestions about verifying the CG, I use the IMAC test of an inverted 45 degree climb and it should continue on that path at least several seconds when you let go of the sticks. The actual recommendation I've seen is that it should begin to slightly nose over after that several seconds, I like my CG far enough back that it will just continue on rather than start to nose over.

Then there is the prop, yeah I'm big on the 8 pitch too but if the engine is idling too high it can be more difficult to land. I use a "flight idle" setting with a mix to kick up the engine idle while flying as mine will idle so slow it makes me a bit nervous to just fly it that way. Most of the GS guys around here do the same thing so I tried that rather than the clicking the idle up before takeoff and back down to land, works great.

The other issue you may be having is one I had when learning to get these bigger models down. That is to establish a higher angle of attack (AOA) on your final approach and putting the model into more of a slow flight mode rather than a glide. Now there are various ways to do that as you get more familiar with the idea, but the easiest way to learn it is to just flatten out your glide a bit on final and the model will slow down and begin to settle faster. Add just a touch of throttle and remember that throttle controls alititude, or in this case the descent rate, and elevator controls attitude. VERY important you remember that one.

Then just let her settle in and cut the throttle as it touches down. You will probably find that an occasional throttle blip will be needed to control the descent rate and remember the rudder is your friend. You should experiment with this and slow flight maneuvers in general at a safe altitude before trying it on landing since it is an Extra and it'll tell you if you've violated the rules rather abruptly when you do..

Hope that helps you as it did my landings.

marc morin

My Feedback: (1)

The IMAC method is the way the plane is presently set up for C.G. I've done your style of approach 3 point landing but with that heavy 3W in front the landing gear takes a beating .The flight idle is higher then landing idle for the same reason nervous at the extreme low setting,but I'm using the trim lever on final to lower R.P.M. running JR10x going to look into how to program a landing R.P.M. setting [sm=thumbs_up.gif]

thewrap

I had the same problem with my Sukhoi so I tried this and just killing the engine it works best to do both at the same time. Solved that problem.

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

Just a thought in that it really doesn't matter about the 3W up front, it's just a case of some judicious throttle use. When you're slow flying, monkeying around with the elevator doesn't really produce any additional pitch change when you're close to the runway because the model is very close to being stalled at that point, but a tiny blip of the throttle will add some authority to the tailfeathers and a bit of lift along the wing root. The additional authority on the elevators from the prop wash will allow you to pitch the nose up a bit more and slow the descent rate due to the higher angle of attack (AOA) on the wing. That is why it's possible to slow fly at a lower airspeed than what the power off stall speed is, and a power on stall is much slower.

You'll also usually get a bit of ground effect to work with, but that is more evident as the speed increases and is why it doesn't want to land if your approach/landing speed is too high. It gets in that ground effect and just keeps going. Full scales do the same thing and low wings are much more prone to doing it than high wings for obvious reasons...

It does take practice, but you can set them down very lightly using this method.

Cobra1

My Feedback: (42)

I program spoilers (both ailerons up) about 10-12 degrees. I also program a little down elevator (about 2 degrees) on the same switch. I hit the switch on the downwind leg, make my turn and land. This makes landing very simple and I have never had a problem with the plane stalling. It just just settles in with a nice glide slope and lands. It really helps when there is wind as the spoilers push the plane down (kill the lift) at a very controlable rate. I use this on all my floaters - WH Edge 540 and WH Sukhoi.

Whith CG back far enough to fly 3D well, these planes want to float all day. Try the spoilers, I think you will like them. I love it.

marc morin

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks thats what I needed to know You've given me some values to work with and confirmed that it works well.

Tetley

Hope you get it sorted dude , i just put a Vess23A on mine and its awesome, real made it fly how i wanted it to.
Get some more time on her and listen to the guys here who gave you some great advise.
Here's a clip from my vess maiden flight, just feeling the prop out etc ive only had about 8 flights on this extra now.. check the landing .

Its got a 3w55i in it and still pulls out of hover well!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...97649822956067

Jim.

marc morin

My Feedback: (1)

Yes the guys have been giving great advice that is what these forums can do when in doubt.Where is your C.G. at?

Tetley

I'll have to get back to you on the exact cg as i changed it at the field on Monday, but its pretty close to book, maybe a little further back. Next time out im gonna tweak the cg back a bit more.
I also found it was landing a little hot but since changing to the vess 23a it bleeds of speed very well on the approach, my tick over is getting better now too as the motor beds in which helps on landing!.


Jim.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Oh hell, enough.

A plane will not land as long as the wing is generating lift. The wing generates lift because of angle of attack and speed. If the angle of attack is too high, and the speed too low, the wing will stall. If those flight profiles come together in close proximity to the runway, then you just landed. A landing is a form of a stall. If the plane is carrying too much speed and the wing is generating lift, a forced landing will turn into a bounce and porpoise. A plane can't land until the wing is done flying. Plane and simple the aircraft is being brought in too fast. If the operator is reluctant to pull the nose up a little to bleed off speed and generate drag it floats. Being timid about slowing down will make it even worse.

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Double check engine idle RPM and make sure it is not over 2000. A higher than normal idle causes all kinds of trouble during landing.

I land my 50cc Extra or Edge by initiaiting the process about 100 yard from the pilot's position and throtle down. Then fly the 180 degree circle to land it (aka IMAC style). During 80% of the 180 circle, the throttle is set at a little bit above the idle to kill speed. It is for the remaining 20% I need to throttle up at about 20% on and off to provide enough lift.

I have used Menz, RCShowcase and Vess Props. Seems to me throttle management and the fly path are the key to a perfect landing.