YS 160DZ SETUP
05-04-2007, 04:27 PM
#1
Thread Starter
YS 160DZ SETUP
Hi Troy,
Got some questions about my new 160DZ ...
Some data : new engine (6 flights) 16.5X12, 30% N, 18 % low v oil. ES 160 pipe, OSF
It seems that there is an important relationship between the fuel-pressure and the HS needle , and thereby the HS affect the idle ... Correct if iam wrong, but it feels like when i run the engine a bit rich on HS, the idle also suffer and become rich, at least it go a bit rough and stop after a longer period of idling -or dont transit smouth .... seems to me a lower temp at this rich setting can cause this ... ? well , for running-in time this setting seemed ok.
Then i tried to lower the fuel pressure ( open the by-pass more) to get it steady at idle, continuing CCW the regulator until the engine would not give a smouth transit , and surging in part-power, in other words too lean in transit and still seems to be rich on idle. The lean part-power could not be richen on HS, cause too rich top-end ... Then i turned the HS in 0.25 ( now set at 1.0 turn) and the regulator back to flush, and mr Dingo are more satisfied ... but still the engine drop the idle over time on ground even with a good warm-up period ... ( with glow driver connected it is ok ).
Still there is room for leaning the HS more, since the fuel pressure seems high enough to maintain the flow. I haven`t tried this yet, want to hear if i am way off in my theory first.
Could it be right that the engine need more flight time, and need to settle a bit before i can make any more adjustments ? ... At least it do not stop in air, in fact it run flawlessly if i drop too long idle before take-off.
Is it something i have missed on the way ... Mr Dingo is a gent and want it to be right !
Kjell Olav
Got some questions about my new 160DZ ...
Some data : new engine (6 flights) 16.5X12, 30% N, 18 % low v oil. ES 160 pipe, OSF
It seems that there is an important relationship between the fuel-pressure and the HS needle , and thereby the HS affect the idle ... Correct if iam wrong, but it feels like when i run the engine a bit rich on HS, the idle also suffer and become rich, at least it go a bit rough and stop after a longer period of idling -or dont transit smouth .... seems to me a lower temp at this rich setting can cause this ... ? well , for running-in time this setting seemed ok.
Then i tried to lower the fuel pressure ( open the by-pass more) to get it steady at idle, continuing CCW the regulator until the engine would not give a smouth transit , and surging in part-power, in other words too lean in transit and still seems to be rich on idle. The lean part-power could not be richen on HS, cause too rich top-end ... Then i turned the HS in 0.25 ( now set at 1.0 turn) and the regulator back to flush, and mr Dingo are more satisfied ... but still the engine drop the idle over time on ground even with a good warm-up period ... ( with glow driver connected it is ok ).
Still there is room for leaning the HS more, since the fuel pressure seems high enough to maintain the flow. I haven`t tried this yet, want to hear if i am way off in my theory first.
Could it be right that the engine need more flight time, and need to settle a bit before i can make any more adjustments ? ... At least it do not stop in air, in fact it run flawlessly if i drop too long idle before take-off.
Is it something i have missed on the way ... Mr Dingo is a gent and want it to be right !
Kjell Olav
05-04-2007, 05:24 PM
#2
Senior Member
RE: YS 160DZ SETUP
If everything is working while flying, but on start up the engine doesn't idle low for a long period of time when first started. Then its not really up to operating temps. This is common and means your setting is about perfect. You can lean the pump screw CCW slightly and this will help.
My engines I set slightly on the rich side as you describe. When at start up they will idle for about 1min to 1.5mins at aprox 2000-2200 before they will die. I keep the idle up higher when on startup and reduce it to the 2000rpm just before I takeoff. With this setup the engine will not surge or go lean in the midrange, and it always performs flawless in the air. Rarely if ever will it die in the air.
Another note, is that the glow plug will likely be a cause of poor idle. Especially when the engine is new and break in is going on. If you get 15-20 flights out of the first glow plug you are lucky. After that I would say the glow plugs last about 75-100flights then they start to show signs of a rich idle like you describe. Changing the plug will make a huge difference.
I have some engine that run near 1 turn open on the HS needle. I would suggest that you lean the pump adjustment slightly and leave the HS alone. 1/8th of a turn. See if that work or if the engine goes lean as you slowly throttle it up. Of note, the engine needs to be warmed up slowly but from your post you already know that.
I send caution regarding your oil content on your fuel. I have been told by Cool Power folks that the Low Vis oils need more volume in order to protect the engine properly. While Yamada recommends 20% as the benchmark standard, you might be ok with 18% oil if the oil has sufficient properties to do the job. I have been told the Low Vis oil used in Cool Power Heli fuel is about 23% due to its thin oil,a nd the properties of the oil needing to protect the engine.
I think you are fairly close on setup...and more run time will help. Perhaps your glow plug has some small bad spots due to the break in process. This is common in the first 1-2 gallons of fuel.
Troy Newman
Team YS Performance
My engines I set slightly on the rich side as you describe. When at start up they will idle for about 1min to 1.5mins at aprox 2000-2200 before they will die. I keep the idle up higher when on startup and reduce it to the 2000rpm just before I takeoff. With this setup the engine will not surge or go lean in the midrange, and it always performs flawless in the air. Rarely if ever will it die in the air.
Another note, is that the glow plug will likely be a cause of poor idle. Especially when the engine is new and break in is going on. If you get 15-20 flights out of the first glow plug you are lucky. After that I would say the glow plugs last about 75-100flights then they start to show signs of a rich idle like you describe. Changing the plug will make a huge difference.
I have some engine that run near 1 turn open on the HS needle. I would suggest that you lean the pump adjustment slightly and leave the HS alone. 1/8th of a turn. See if that work or if the engine goes lean as you slowly throttle it up. Of note, the engine needs to be warmed up slowly but from your post you already know that.
I send caution regarding your oil content on your fuel. I have been told by Cool Power folks that the Low Vis oils need more volume in order to protect the engine properly. While Yamada recommends 20% as the benchmark standard, you might be ok with 18% oil if the oil has sufficient properties to do the job. I have been told the Low Vis oil used in Cool Power Heli fuel is about 23% due to its thin oil,a nd the properties of the oil needing to protect the engine.
I think you are fairly close on setup...and more run time will help. Perhaps your glow plug has some small bad spots due to the break in process. This is common in the first 1-2 gallons of fuel.
Troy Newman
Team YS Performance
05-04-2007, 07:26 PM
#3
Thread Starter
RE: YS 160DZ SETUP
OK, Everything seems normal then ... run at high-idle after start, bringing the idle back to 2100-2200 just before t/o and mr Dingo are satisfied ...
I was worried about the oil content in the beginning, and i have to admit it took some time to convince me .... but it work very well in both pressurized and pumped YS ,so i took the chance, and so far my YS engines are happy ... time will show ...
... So, we continue to burn fuel and change plugs until it get some flight time ....
Thanks!
Kjell Olav
05-20-2007, 05:02 PM
#5
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RE: YS 160DZ SETUP
Hi Troy
Flew my new Somenzini 73" Yak with a new 140DZ today and had a dead stick. Flying straight and level about half throttle plenty of smoke using CP 30% with a 18X6 prop and it just shut off. I did run it in on a test stand for 2 tank fulls and it sounded fine. I also have some concerns about the plumbing and wondering if that could have attributed to the problem. I have the vent line open to the atmosphere and the feed line has a filter and a shutoff valve and also a fill line. I know this engine does not rely on pressurizing the tank so I did not use a check valve. Should the vent line have a check valve? Also, when I ran the engine on the test stand I did turn the "regulator screw" in about a 1/4 turn.
Flew my new Somenzini 73" Yak with a new 140DZ today and had a dead stick. Flying straight and level about half throttle plenty of smoke using CP 30% with a 18X6 prop and it just shut off. I did run it in on a test stand for 2 tank fulls and it sounded fine. I also have some concerns about the plumbing and wondering if that could have attributed to the problem. I have the vent line open to the atmosphere and the feed line has a filter and a shutoff valve and also a fill line. I know this engine does not rely on pressurizing the tank so I did not use a check valve. Should the vent line have a check valve? Also, when I ran the engine on the test stand I did turn the "regulator screw" in about a 1/4 turn.
05-20-2007, 10:39 PM
#6
Senior Member
RE: YS 160DZ SETUP
Chances are you are too rich. The DZ engines will dead stick when they are new and get too rich. If it was running well...try and lean the HS a little and give it a go again. Another option is as the engine breaks in it will be time for a new glow plug soon. Maybe after about 1 gallon or so...This is because the break in process.
DZ's don't like to run tool rich....since they are direct injected the raw fuel can just put the glow plug out. This usually happens from a long idle and throttle up...but it can happen at mid power too if its really rich.
Troy Newman
Team YS Performance
DZ's don't like to run tool rich....since they are direct injected the raw fuel can just put the glow plug out. This usually happens from a long idle and throttle up...but it can happen at mid power too if its really rich.
Troy Newman
Team YS Performance
07-31-2007, 10:26 AM
#7
Thread Starter
RE: YS 160DZ SETUP
Hi Troy,
So, finally the problem was solved ...
The problem was still valid after a longer period in service, and i decided to investigate how this engine work , and it`s production tolerances etc ... I think i posted the same photo somewhere else in this forum also, but i put them back here.
To make a long story short, i found that the metering groove in the throttel barrel was leaking fuel directly into the pressurized air-intake manifold. This leakage seems caused by a combination of a too big toleranse between the barell and the housing, and a too rough surface threatment of the barell. I did some tests on a new housing/barell (sold as an assy ), and this was better, but still some leakage ...
P.S.The leakage is straight forward to find . Done by pressurizing the barell / housing assy in water, with removed HS assy which is then blocked, and also the fuel output on the housing blocked.
So, i decided to do some machinery as you can see in the picture ( first picture the original one,second the modified )
In the same process i put a third o-ring to seal off the air- inntake side / pressurized side. This was done just to optimize the assy, since i also found leakage between this to chambers.
Well, the engine has now run a longer period, and it has become totally different in a very smooth, realiable and easy adjustable engine. It also seems that it became "thermal stable", in other words, uncritical to temperature variations of the engine.
Both my Impact and Integral are lucky to be pulled by this great engine!
Thanks
Kjell Olav
So, finally the problem was solved ...
The problem was still valid after a longer period in service, and i decided to investigate how this engine work , and it`s production tolerances etc ... I think i posted the same photo somewhere else in this forum also, but i put them back here.
To make a long story short, i found that the metering groove in the throttel barrel was leaking fuel directly into the pressurized air-intake manifold. This leakage seems caused by a combination of a too big toleranse between the barell and the housing, and a too rough surface threatment of the barell. I did some tests on a new housing/barell (sold as an assy ), and this was better, but still some leakage ...
P.S.The leakage is straight forward to find . Done by pressurizing the barell / housing assy in water, with removed HS assy which is then blocked, and also the fuel output on the housing blocked.
So, i decided to do some machinery as you can see in the picture ( first picture the original one,second the modified )
In the same process i put a third o-ring to seal off the air- inntake side / pressurized side. This was done just to optimize the assy, since i also found leakage between this to chambers.
Well, the engine has now run a longer period, and it has become totally different in a very smooth, realiable and easy adjustable engine. It also seems that it became "thermal stable", in other words, uncritical to temperature variations of the engine.
Both my Impact and Integral are lucky to be pulled by this great engine!
Thanks
Kjell Olav
07-31-2007, 12:01 PM
#8
Senior Member
RE: YS 160DZ SETUP
Very good idea.
What I know is that I have had some engines in the past with similar o-ring configuration.
when the throttle barrels and carb body is put togther at the factory. The fit is really tight. They are then lapped together to minimize tolerance and make the fit a perfect matched pair. To have a slight leak is probbaly OK. But if the fit is way too loose then you cna have issues.
The latest 170 I have has the throttle barrel seal similar to the 140L. This is a rubber flanged seal that is in location of the original o-ring seal on the DZ barrel.
What you have done is make sure that nothing is leaking between the chambers and that works well. I'm going to forward the information onto YS and see what they think about it. Personally I like the idea but doubt it would have much effect ona carb-barrel assembly that was a proper fit to begin with. My guess is yours was just way too off tolerance, and the fix sealed it up. Perhaps Yamada can incorperate a similar solution to make things better overall and reduce the dependance on that perfect fit of carb-barrel assembly.
Excellent engineering and work.
Troy Newman
Team YS
What I know is that I have had some engines in the past with similar o-ring configuration.
when the throttle barrels and carb body is put togther at the factory. The fit is really tight. They are then lapped together to minimize tolerance and make the fit a perfect matched pair. To have a slight leak is probbaly OK. But if the fit is way too loose then you cna have issues.
The latest 170 I have has the throttle barrel seal similar to the 140L. This is a rubber flanged seal that is in location of the original o-ring seal on the DZ barrel.
What you have done is make sure that nothing is leaking between the chambers and that works well. I'm going to forward the information onto YS and see what they think about it. Personally I like the idea but doubt it would have much effect ona carb-barrel assembly that was a proper fit to begin with. My guess is yours was just way too off tolerance, and the fix sealed it up. Perhaps Yamada can incorperate a similar solution to make things better overall and reduce the dependance on that perfect fit of carb-barrel assembly.
Excellent engineering and work.
Troy Newman
Team YS
07-31-2007, 12:55 PM
#9
Thread Starter
RE: YS 160DZ SETUP
... here`s my modified barell of the latest version ...
This is sold as an assy ( matched parts ). The black seal is the same as 140L.
Well, this assy will be fitted to my next 170 when it will be available for us enthusiasts!
Kjell Olav
This is sold as an assy ( matched parts ). The black seal is the same as 140L.
Well, this assy will be fitted to my next 170 when it will be available for us enthusiasts!
Kjell Olav
