atul

Hi All:

Before you flame me, do note that it is impossible here in Banalore, India to get 100% pure Methanol any more: by regulation, one can only get Methanol that already has 10% castor mixed in. Nitro is also of varying quality and costs $200/gallon (about $50/litre). Based on this, one can basically purchase a brand new YS 110 every 70 flights or so if one runs on FAI fuel, so that's the reason for this approach.

Here are the results of running the brand new YS-110 on FAI fuel (the recommended YS fuel is between 15% and 30% nitro).

The Engine was brand new. A beautiful piece of engineering one must say.

On straight fuel (FAI: 78% Methanol, 10% castor, 12% synthetic), the result were as follows (with a 15x6 prop to run-in)

The engine started on the first flick : no problems

Took it up to 4,000 RPM and ran it for 3-4 mins; no problems

maxed out the throttle for 10 secs : great transition; set high-speed needle to 1 1/3 turns (up from 1;25 to 1.33 basicallhy); came back to 4000 RPM (apparently this is recommended by Troy and other YS Experts). At this point, the engine started LOADING UP.

Closed the regulator 1/8 turn; marked improvement in transition; took engine up to max RPM for 10 secs (about 9500 - but it was 6 PM so the tach was not working well in the dying sunlight for some reason); came back down; much LESS loading up now

Closed the regulator another 1/8 turn; this time, the transition was even better and on coming back to 4,000 RPM, there was no more loading up!

Started setting the idle: about 2300 RPM (yet to be fully verified). Engine started loading up a bit, Leaned out low-speed needle the idle was too rich, so had to lean it out by a 1/4 turn

Result: the engine continued to run well. Ran a 12 oz tank for about 11 mins. Not bad! With ZERO nitro, the engine runs well enough. With Nitro, the engine will likely run smoother and one can likely get 400 to 500 RPM more and turn a bigger prop. But that's not my goal. The goal is to enjoy the YS power with 500 less RPM on a smaller model!

Cleanup: stopped engine after 2 tanks (had to run errands after that), and had a helper remove the blue tubing and clean out the engine (to prevent Castor Oil gunk from clogging the engine), with Kerosene (Airplane fuel).

Conclusion: YS Engines run great on no nitro. They are truly beautiful engines. Just follow Troy's run-in instructions and you can't go wrong. Zero Nitro definitely gives one less power and it takes time to set the needles properly, but the fact is that it does work. One has to keep it rich and follow the advise on running at 4,000 RPM and adjusting the regulator. I cannot understand why YS does not put this basic running information into its manuals!!

atul

petec

My Feedback: (58)

Other than cleaning the engine out with kerosene (petroleum products are bad for the silicone parts in the engine) I have to applaud you for taking the time to get the engine running on FAI fuel.

atul

Pete: actually, I ensured that the silicone parts of the engine were taken off before the engine was cleaned out.

The FAI stuff seems to work well. I only had time to run the engine twice (two tank fulls). Very nice engine indeed - the technology is cool. I'm sure that once it loosens up it will be fine!

atul

mjfrederick

Your report pretty much confirms what I would have expected as far as necessary adjustments. Thanks for the detailed report, atul.

atul

Thanks. The information on Troy's blog helped a lot. YS Engines are pretty easy to tune (at least when new!) once you follow the "4000 RPM check" method, IMHO and then do essentially the same check with the LS needle. Things get a little confusing sometimes because there are three variables to manage (Regulator, HS and LS needles).

I still do have to run the engine several times more on the bench (mainly because the model for it is not ready yet!). The LS needle still needs adjustment. The point however is that the engine is fun to tune, has a great sound, exhibits very good transition (which will doubtlessly be better with more Nitro - but is still very good anyhow) and above all is an Engineering Marvel.

Atul

Iflyglow

My Feedback: (79)

atul123
First off, applaud you for trying the FAI fuel. Second, I wonder if you took the engine completely apart to remove all of the orange (SILOCONE O-RINGS). Did you use all new gaskets to reasemble the engine then. The Silocone goes alot farther into the engine than just the regulator. You would have been better off to flush the engine with straight alcohol, and then lube it with a little YS safe oil (Mobil 1 0-20) is known to be YS friendly. There is at least 5 or 6 o-rings that are Silocone (orange) besides the regulator. The Kerosene which you stated you used, will wick into and conpromise the silocone seals after you run it. I would dismantle the complete engine, clean with alcohol or glowfuel, and reasemble with new orings and gasket's. This is the same thing that YS or Troy would tell you to do.[]

atul

Motorman: Ah! I did not know that Silicone goes further into the engine. I've only cleaned the engine once with Kerosene (a couple of flushes). I'll start using Alcohol the next time around. The only idea was to clean out the Castor deposits. I'm trying hard to get pure Methanol here so that I can mix it with pure synthetic. I think dismantling the engine might be too much overkill. ALso, the "experiment" is not over as yet: there's still plenty more running-in and also flying to do!

Thanks for the tip anyway. I guess Kerosene is out!

atul

atul

Motorman: Your advise is needed on whether any cleaning at all is needed with the Castor/Synthetic mix.

Downunder (from Australia) posted the following on another thread in the YS-zero-nitro discussion:


It's generally accepted that a mix of synthetic and castor is all that's needed to keep any carbon deposits down. A friend of mine runs his Saitos on zero nitro (with much raised compression though) and uses castor with a little synthetic (90/10 castor/synthetic) to keep it clean inside. Washing the castor out of the crankcase isn't a good idea though because it's an excellent rust preservative (after run oil if you like) and it takes a very long time for it to start getting sticky, many months.


The above post seems to say that if one uses 10% castor and 12% synthetic then the deposits of castor should not develop and that Castor serves as an "after run oil" (!). I can say that after the 2-tank first-run, the engine seemed reasonably clean and non-sticky (at least in comparison to my JETT running 20% castor and no Synthetic). So the blend seems a lot less sticky than the "pure castor".

What are your thoughts? Should I clean out the engine at all? Perhaps I could simply use the same glow fuel to clean it out after a day's run?

Any advise is appreciated!

atul

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

Thanks for sharing the FAI fuel experience. Please let us know how the engine behaves during and after break-in.

togatoga

My Feedback: (42)

I've been running 5% nitro on one of my 110 in a sport plane since new. Engine runs OK but power goes down a fair bit and so does torque. As such the transition is a kinda laggy so I've resorted to using a much smaller prop size. Other than that, the engine runs fine with a good idle. The engine was designed for higher nitro and as such the regulator and needle settings are way off.I have however abandoned the idea and am going back to at least 15 to 20% nitro. There's just no "kick" !!

Atul- use a 17% synthetic / 3% castor mix. Bangalore is one of my favourite Indian cities, nice cool weather. Do you guys still fly at the old airfield?

atul

Togatoga:

What were your regulator settings? I only had to screw in the regulator slightly less than a quarter turn, and the low-speed needle was leaned out another quarter turn. I have not run a detailed analysis right but power will obviously be lower. The precise numbers need to be checked... what prop sizes did you run with the 5% nitro and what were the RPMs? Hopefully, the drop-off will not be super bad. If it is, then Nitro is the only answer! I do agree that the engine seems designed for more nitro...

I wanted to use 18% synthetic but about a month back a regulation was passed to only sell Methanol in Bangalore with 10% castor pre-mixed. This is because bootleggers were using Methanol in illicit country liquor that killed over 200 people (!!). Wild stuff.

We still fly on the old field but I've found a huge open field next to my home in Whitefield, where I've been flying in peace.

I will continue the "beta test" and publish the results. Unfortunately, been a little tied up this weekend. Back to more testing on Monday/Tuesday onwards.

atul

atul

Motorman:

You were right about the Kerosene! Looks like it affected some of the internal parts since the engine refused to start right up today. I had to open up the regulator and clean out the o-ring, and then it started up but performance was a little erratic. After the first start the starting became more difficult and the transition started suffering, until the point where the engine would not transition at all [], unfortunately. Cleaning out a YS with Kerosene has got to be the most boneheaded move in the business :-).

So basically it looks like an air-leak has developed somewhere. Most likely around the o-rings around the pushrod tubes (there are 4 of them there) and/or around the needle valves. It's clear that an air-leak is the problem.

Looks like I'll have to either get an o-ring set or send it in. Spoke to YSPartsAndService and they confirmed what you said - all o-rings have to be replaced and the regulator assembly might have to be taken apart and examined. That's not easy to do because on the 110-S the assembly is fused. So I'm going to have to send it in, though I'll try testing one more time before then...

On the brighter side, I am getting my old YS-53 exchanged for a brand new YS 63S, so the Zero Nitro experiment can continue on that new engine next week! The 110S will be back in a month or thereabouts and so flight-testing on Zero nitro has to wait for a while.

BTW - YSPartsAndService did say that the engine would run without nitro but (as expected) the performance would be considerably lower (lower pitch props, etc.).

Atul

Iflyglow

My Feedback: (79)

Atul,
I kinda thought it would get expensive for you. The only oils that will not hurt it are Mobil 1 synthetic car oil, and Ultra oil sold by performance specialties. I personally use Mobil 1 0w-20 weight motor oil for preserving. You can only flush the engine with methanol, denatured alcohol, or model fuel. The castor you were refering to will carbon the exhaust valve, and it will STICK A VALVE. If you thought the kerosene was expensive, don't run castor oil either. The YS's are intended to be run on 100% synthetic. If you run very small %'s (2-3% )of castor it might allow to avoid a very expensive problem for a little while. The way the fuel is transferred through the bearing's on a YS, they are not plagued by the corrosion problems of the normal 4 strokes. If you run and treat them with the fuel intended for them, you will have a much better time.
To put it into perspective, It appears as if you bought a Porsche engine intended for premium, but are trying to run E85 gas in it. The flushing with kerosene shows that you have no real experience with a YS, and the guy that helped you did not either. Try to find a club member or someone who actually knows and runs YS's, and learn from him. My 1.
10S happily spins a 15-8 on 20/20 @ 10,000 plus. I know that I am a little over the recommended 9,600 rpm's, but I like the engine to be a loaded a little less. There are many sites outthere with good advice on the careing and running. a YS is to expensive to be experementing with especially when you are a YS newbee.

atul

Motorman,

The idea was always to use 100% Synthetic oil. Unfortunately, the only methanol available here (in Bangalore, India) comes mixed with 10% Castor. I am trying to source pure methanol and then run on 100% synthetic. I'll have to get it from another city now - it's quite an exercise in logistics. There's little to no predictability in getting stuff like glo fuel here in India since the demand is not there like it is in other countries. So one has to improvise.

The engine was actually running very well until the Kerosene 'wash'. On closer analysis, it seems that only the four black O-rings around the rod housings were affected: the regulator assembly was not 'treated' with Kerosene so it should be fine. . Instead of sending I've ordered the O-rings and gaskets from Central Hobbies and they should be here next week. I'm confident that after the new rings are on the engine will be back to it's normal good self - like it was before the kerosene fiasco.

I have read a lot of the forums and websites. Once you get the hang of it, the YS concept is actually quite simple. It's just that with an additional variable (the regulator) besides the LS and HS needles, one can sometimes get confused. However, one one gets hang of the fact that the fuel system needs to be totally sealed, panic is avoided. The information on all these forums has certainly helped a lot.

As for the Nitro, all engines (for the most part - except the European ones like Rossi, Moki, etc.) run better on more nitro. With almost double the fuel being consumed, it is obvious that the "needleability" of the engine will improve, as will power. With Zero nitro, or a brief moment (before things went south due to the leaks) I did see 9100 RPM on the tach with a 14x10 prop, which is not too bad. Once the engine is fully run-in, I suspect it will turn a 15x8 in the low 9000 RPM range, about 9100. The added 20% nitro gets you another 800 RPM or so, which is expected. I think I might not need it but if I do, then it is always possible to move to more Nitro (though it costs over $50/liter here in India .

It is true, though, that the engine seems specifically designed for more Nitro. If someone can figure out a way to increase it's compression, then it will easily run great on less nitro, but I'm not sure anyone offers such a service. Also, YS likely sells more fuel than engines - and makes a higer margin - so they've got no incentive to increase the compression either.

I like the Porsche analogy. I actually drive a Ferrari in California and you're right: no E85 in the Mondial .

For now, the plan is to fully run in the engine on Zero nitro, get several flights going and understand the characteristics of the engine. The fuel will be Methanol and 100% synthetic (based on availability)... I'll keep you posted.

atul

atul

Motorman: About the castor sticking a value - here's another comment from DownUnder on another topic on the 'Car and Gas Engines' forum.

DownUnder says: "It's generally accepted that a mix of synthetic and castor is all that's needed to keep any carbon deposits down. A friend of mine runs his Saitos on zero nitro (with much raised compression though) and uses castor with a little synthetic (90/10 castor/synthetic) to keep it clean inside. Washing the castor out of the crankcase isn't a good idea though because it's an excellent rust preservative (after run oil if you like) and it takes a very long time for it to start getting sticky, many months."

What do you think of this? I have noticed myself that running a 50/50 mix of synthetic/castor leaves the engine quite 'clean' compared to 100% castor. What do you make of the statement above?

Have you actually heard of / seen a valve sticking with the partial use of Castor? I will likely switch to pure synthetic after my current gallon of fuel is done, but I wanted to know about this valve-sticking issue anyhow.

Finally, on the same prop, how much (in your experience) more power (in terms of increased RPM) does each additional 5% of Nitro add to the engine. I suspect that the Nitro has more affect on Torque so one can spin a higher pitch prop. For instance, Troy said that with 30% CP his YS 110 spins a 15x10 prop at 10,000+ rpm. At 20% your YS spins a 15x8 at 10,000. Perhaps with 10% that should mean spinning a 15x8 at 9400? Any numbers on this sort of thing?

I think I'll stick with a 15x6 prop and check the numbers. Hopefully, once the engine is full run in the numbers will go up!

BTW - I will likely also get a new 110s in the near future and run it exclusively on 20/20 fuel. It is a great engine for sure

atul

Iflyglow

My Feedback: (79)

Atul,
First: Castor in a YS is bad. It is a known fact with YS's that the exhaust valve will coat very quickly with burnt on carbon and cause problems. A YS is a totally different animal than a Car motor, Saito, or any other four stroke outthere. Second: Troy said his YS spins a 15-10 a little over 9,not 10,000 rpm. Third, down under does not run YS's.[X(] If you do not want to listen to good advice from people who know and run YS's thats fine with me too. You will lickely have a very expensive lesson with the YS learing curve. Mine peaks at 10,000+ but is richened down to 9,800+,depending on the outside temps. The 1.10S will never bee happy on 10%, and you will not see 9,400 on 10% either. I am about done talking about this subject too. You need to run the excepted fuel.
You have alot of what if questions, but do not seam to want to follow the recommended advice from YS users.

atul

Motorman:

Point noted and understood. 100% synthetic it is. No further discussion on this point.

One more question on replacing the O-rings and Gaskets: any special advise on the procedure? Does everything have to be dried out (I suspect it does since if there's oil around the O-rings at the time of installation, they might leak?). Please let me know.

Didn't mean to get you worked up or anything. Looks like I'll have to move to 15% or greater Nitro soon enough .

There's a small discrepancy in the YS manual for the 110S. The 63S, 140S and 170 DZ all say "20% to 24% oil content", but the 110S manual says "15% to 20% oil content". This seems to be incorrect (YS should have a website where they can take feedback!). I'm assuming 20% to 24% pure synthetic will be OK. Everyone seems to use 20% so I guess 20% is best?

Atul

PJ_TankPilot

Hang on here. A little castor is not necessarily bad in a YS engine. We have been racing YS engines here for many years. We push them to their limits and beyond. We run 110s up to 12,500 RPM, a little under their max. We buy a lot of YS parts in the process and engines are re-built regularly.

A little castor can be an engine saver. If you have a lean run (and you probably will) the castor burns at a higher temperature than the synthetic. Over time, castor can leave some varnish inside the engine. Left in an engine, it can get gummy over time. I like to have 2-3 percent castor.

If you are getting carbon deposits, the engine is getting too hot. You are running too lean, too cowled, or too big a prop.

Of course, the proceeding is based on my experiences. Your mileage may vary.

atul

PJ: Thanks for the reply. I did think that 2% or 3% of Castor might have helped but I think Motorman's viewpoint is that if one always runs Rich then 100% synthetic will suffice. Troy is also a 100% Synthetic man. Personally, I've used Castor in all my engines but YS seems a little more 'sensitive' to Castor.

Since you have vast experience in racing YS engines, can you comment on what might happen if one uses a mix of 10% castor and 10% synthetic? Will that whack out a valve in the short-term? You can assume that the mixture will be as rich as possible. I'm not saying that's what I want to do but if you have raced YS engines with a little more Castor then your experience will be appreciated.

Also, on the O-ring replacement, does the entire assembly have to be dried out completely before the rings/gaskets are replaced? MY previous experience is all with 2-strokes so the question might seem a little dumb .

Thanks,

Atul

PJ_TankPilot

I have never used 10% castor in a YS engine but I have used more than 10% in 2 strokes. You will probably get varnish build up but that takes time. If you don’t run the engine for extended periods, you may have some gummy problems like narrow fuel passages plugged.

>>Will it whack out a valve in the short-term?
I don’t know how that this is going to happen.

>>on the O-ring replacement, does the entire assembly have to be dried out completely before the rings/gaskets are replaced?
There are a lot of O-rings in a YS engine. If you are replacing the O-rings because you used an unfriendly solution, you should make sure it is all cleaned out. When re-assembling an engine, a little synthetic oil will only help.

atul

PJ: thanks for the update. I use 20% castor in my 2-strokes and it works great. Gets a little gummy after a while but basically is quite harmless. The overall YS user opinion seems to be against Castor in any form, but as you said, 2% or 3% is good protection against running lean.

On the O-Rings: they are easy to get to for the most part. So the replacement should be simple enough.

Thanks!

atul

A1

My Feedback: (2)

This is from the new ys110S manual.

2. Use a good quality fuel which contains 15-30% nitromethane and
an oil content of 15-20%. Synthetic or castor oil can be used, or
a combination of synthetic and caster. Do not use four cycle fuel
due to low oil content.
3. The needle valve should be set so that the engine is running at
a rich setting. Run the engine approximately 20 minutes with this

Iflyglow

My Feedback: (79)

A1,
Ys perfromance the american distributer and warranty center does not recommend castor, and atleast 20% nitro for best results. Call them if you donot believe me.

atul

A1 : Motorman is right. The manual seems to be incorrect, since the manuals for the YS-63S, YS-140S and the YS 170 DZ all say 20-24% oil. The 63 and 140 manuals say "Castor or Synthetic or a mix", but the 170 Manual says "Synthetic Oil only; if you use castor, ensure you use less than 2%".

The consensus is that Synthetic oil is better in the long-term for YS engines. Some racers (PJ for instance) recommend 2% castor which should be fine, IMHO.

YS engines also seem to be tuned for a whole bunch of Nitro, though they will run without nitro as well with a lot less power. I'm in the middle of that experiment right now in fact, but once the results are available I suspect I might have to move to the classic YS 20/20 mix (20% Nitro, 20% Synthetic - or 18% Synthetic and 2% castor). But I'm curious about the power the engine will finally show after a full run-in on Zero nitro so I'm going to continue that for now.

Atul

togatoga

My Feedback: (42)

Atul, I suggest you use 2~3% good quality castor for your engine as you are mixing your own fuel.The methanol may not be pure and may contain or attract moisture during mixing.The castor will save you some grief. Castor in this low percentage is fine and does prevent corrosion especially in humid conditions where you reside.
I used a 14x8 prop and was getting about 10k on 5% . Engine idles extremely well and provides unlimited verticals in my plane.I had a trike plane that had limited prop clearance, so I popped in a 110 that was lying around doing nothing and used low nitro.I wouldn't consider a YS with the limited fuel choice that you have, rather I'd go gas IMHO. Hope to get to Bangeluru one day and walk along Brigade street. Happy flying!