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Screamin' Toucan flies!

Old 12-07-2014, 01:45 PM
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MJD
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Default Screamin' Toucan flies!

Yeah, can you believe it? Today - clear blue, sunny, calm. A little below freezing but so what.

Three flights. I made a crude helmet cam by screwing a shelf bracket to the top of a construction helmet, and like an idiot (a) forgot the memory was almost full, and (b) forgot to mount the iPhone sideways for video. So.. I have the first 30 seconds of the first flight.

This is with a Driskill combat prop.. the one with the CF strand down the middle, I think it is about a 4.75x3 or 2.75 or something. A 10cc fill with a slow start so wasted a bit of fuel. 10% nitro, 23% total oil syn/cas. Needed a lot of down trim, seems I had it trimmed for a nice floaty glide not pylon racing. Next flight same prop 25cc fuel.. long and trimmed better. Third flight put on the 4.1 x 4.5 thin speed prop. Ground rpm down, launched a little rich and it unloaded and took off like a rabbit in the air.. big speed boost. I have no clocking but I am pretty confident the goal of 140 was quite realistic. This thing hauls.

With the light wing loading it absolutely floats on glide. I think it will thermal, but not until next season,

The video is uploading now.. yeah it's sideways, I'm a bonehead. I'll put the link up in 10-15 minutes.
Old 12-07-2014, 02:36 PM
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Congratulations..!
Hopefully it wasn't too painful on the fingers handling the fuel, the prop blast, etc.
Please refresh my / our memories about this project. I seem to remember you have a PROFI .049 combat / FF type engine..?
How much did it cost and who did you get it from..?
I remember the ARF conversion and the custom cowl, but do not recall seeing the finalized [RTF] photos with how you arranged the plumbing, needle access, etc.
I am surprised to hear that the .049 handled the 4.5 pitch prop well. Is this APC...?
I'll say that even though using the Driskill combat props seems like a "conservative" way to go [It IS for the health of a new engine], the acceleration of the model is so great that you don't get too much time to react if the plane is way out of trim...!
Old 12-07-2014, 02:53 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK6M...ature=youtu.be

It is a Profi "Rambler" .049 - FIRE, non-pipe timed speed engine for proto. Set up for max 10%. Got if from Alberto on the west coast, $215 IIRC. Plug and play engine - typical Profi as I am coming to learn, probably same for the Cyclons you've run.

The prop is a Steve Wilk Eliminator E-3. I thinned and sharpened the TE and made it look purty. Ended up at 4.1 diameter. The engine was obviously fighting the blade AoA by the reduced ground rpm. I launched audibly rich figuring/hoping the prop wold unload some, and it sure did as the airplane picked up speed, you could hear the tires bite and zoom..

I won't estimate the top speed on the 4.5 pitch prop.. but it frikking hauled!!

Last edited by MJD; 12-07-2014 at 02:57 PM.
Old 12-07-2014, 02:58 PM
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Oh yeah, no cowl today. I post a pic later.
Old 12-07-2014, 03:05 PM
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Hi MJD,

Awesome !
I remember holding it in my hand, thinking it was 'lighter than a feather'...
And that was with the clay mold around the engine !
I still say that the only way you can see it coming towards you,
Is by 'Doppler' effect !

Take care,
Have fun,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
Maac 6437
Unabashed Combat Team
Old 12-07-2014, 03:19 PM
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Ohhhhh...I see now. Rambler refers to the type of flying the engine was built for. [In the USA, Rambler is NOT a good choice to call ANYTHING remotely connected to motor sports. Rambler automobiles were mostly sold to librarians, florists and kindergarten teachers.]

E-3 rings a bell with me. I might have tried it with the G&Z .061 but never with the Cyclon.
That plane looks like it ought to get into the 150s.
Old 12-07-2014, 03:36 PM
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That really unloads in the air. I think I am done flying outdoors for a few months now. Good to see you found some time to get it going. Looks like a hoot.
Old 12-07-2014, 05:13 PM
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Yay WTG MIKEYYYY!!

Your very own Screamin' Toucan!

I had readings of 28.3k on the ground
- Rpm leaped up to 37.7k (best) in the air

Base on your 4.5P prop one can extrapolate 37k rpm / 150+ mph unloaded
With the cowl on and some needle tweaking you should exceed your goal.

I found Steves extended prop list I will have to do some ordering.

http://www.nclra.org/Supply/SteveWil...0b9a9fa66fcab8

Last edited by Pond Skipper; 03-29-2018 at 08:52 PM.
Old 12-07-2014, 05:39 PM
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I am sure it was in the triple digits on the first flight.

I had the prop set right, and the ***** stopped at about 5 o'clock anyway and I cracked a blade. One flight wonder. There's much to be said for APC 4.2x4.
Old 12-07-2014, 05:56 PM
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I've heard it said that CF props can slip out of place during the run. That would be easy enough to look into. I've just never been in a good enough mood to do so.
Old 12-07-2014, 06:32 PM
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It's still bolted on, I'll check. But the way it burbles down rich at the end I can see all sorts of things trying to foil my efforts.
Old 12-07-2014, 06:43 PM
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Yea I bought a 6 count bag of APC 4.2 x 4 a month or so back $10.28 shipped cheap cheap for what you get at $1.71 a pop.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-APC-4-2x...#ht_1296wt_876
Old 12-07-2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MJD View Post
It's still bolted on, I'll check. But the way it burbles down rich at the end I can see all sorts of things trying to foil my efforts.
I think you might eventually try crankcase pressure with this engine...?
I plan on trying it with the Cyclon .061. A 1 oz Hayes tank I am pretty sure will fit behind a cowled engine with some room for padding to spare. Otherwise, a Playtex baby bottle liner might work to convert a Hayes tank to a Tetra style..?
Old 12-07-2014, 07:01 PM
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[QUOTE=Pond Skipper;11933124]Yea I bought a 6 count bag of APC 4.2 x 4 a month or so back $10.28 shipped cheap cheap for what you get at $1.71 a pop.

IIRC...this is much cheaper than ordering direct from APC.
Old 12-07-2014, 09:15 PM
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I just wish APC made 4 x 4.5 in the half A class that extra .5 pitch makes a world of difference. In regards to a Cox TD manual states max rpm at 24k I imagine that is on the bench with a tach a 4.5P would provide 102.3 mph if at 26k / 111 mph heart thumper on the cheap.
Old 12-07-2014, 10:34 PM
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If either Steve Wilk or APC makes it, it has a real purpose. Even if the application is a bit antiquated.
I couldn't get 4.5 pitch to work when I tried it years ago and so "wrote it off" as not usable for .049 - .061.
If MJD can make it work with what looks like a superior airframe and get into the 150's, then that proves me wrong about "practical limits".
At $7-$8 for this prop [plus prep work for CF] it would be nice to have a less expensive APC alternative.
One thing is for sure, the 4.2 x 4 is an "agreeable load" that these engines can lug without hurting themselves. Even with an occasional lean run. I think 150 is possible with this prop, even on low nitro.
Old 12-08-2014, 12:12 AM
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Well the engine does turn up on the 2.75P I was getting readings up to 37.7k
The engine would need to reach 39,600 rpm to have a chance at 150 if with the 4P
I'm not sure what the safe running limits are with a Profi Rambler??

What dia. do you recall trying with a 4.5P?
Old 12-08-2014, 06:07 AM
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The Profi is probably happy to 40k, it's a robust little devil. Since it's open exhaust I might be better off with crankcase pressure as CP suggested, but the runs were pretty good so far I thought. It goes rich for a few seconds at the end, I point the nose up and get some height.

I see the props are $5 a piece, I had forgotten. The value depends on how you price your time finishing the darn things.

The model may handle a little less diameter, next spring time to experiment in earnest.
Old 12-08-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Pond Skipper View Post
Well the engine does turn up on the 2.75P I was getting readings up to 37.7k
The engine would need to reach 39,600 rpm to have a chance at 150 if with the 4P
I'm not sure what the safe running limits are with a Profi Rambler??

What dia. do you recall trying with a 4.5P?
I do not remember specifics, but my practice would have been to keep removing blade mass and diameter until I could get a piped G&Z .061 to hit resonance. I've always removed mass before sacrificing precious diameter. The actual test flights back then would have been naked eye assessments [no speed measurements] or radar and unless I saw something impressive, the props tested would not get re-ordered from Wilk due to their cost and my need to move in the direction where I was seeing results.
After so much hardship trying to keep a G&Z .061 running happily, I bought a FORA .049 combat engine and that was the best move I ever made. They run so well, so consistent with zero maintenance, low nitro and 4.2 x 4 props. By now I was satisfied with the 4.2 x 4 and 120 mph models. After 7 years of running the FORA I never had the backplate off of it, ended up trading it to a friend and bought myself a Cyclon .061 Combat engine. This was a definite upgrade in power and around here the Cyclon was considered the Rolls Royce of brands for reliability. Mine has hit very close to 40,000 [in flight] with the 4.2 x 4 but I've never broken into the 150s. It might do 150 on Mike's plane here, though.
Old 12-08-2014, 08:44 AM
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My big goal was .049 speed vs 1cc. There is a FIRE .061 version as well, but that's cheating. Since .049 is such a traditional standard in NA, I was more interested in seeing what the potential was. And having fun in the process.

Just from these few flights I can tell it would be best to go down 20% or so in wing area and overall size. It would still be lightly loaded.

The fact that I - so far - find this engine easy to run is a testament to the ruggedness and design. Still squeaky tight at TDC.
Old 12-08-2014, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MJD View Post
The Profi is probably happy to 40k, it's a robust little devil. Since it's open exhaust I might be better off with crankcase pressure as CP suggested, but the runs were pretty good so far I thought. It goes rich for a few seconds at the end, I point the nose up and get some height.

I see the props are $5 a piece, I had forgotten. The value depends on how you price your time finishing the darn things.

The model may handle a little less diameter, next spring time to experiment in earnest.
Too bad you aren't down here. We are having a warm spell right now after a few weeks of freezing temps.
For cold weather flying, all of the critical hand movements to work with a high pressure bladder just get more critical. Pond Skipper posted a drawing of a servo operated, progressive fuel line pinch that would be handy but it is hard to find room for gizmos on 1/2 A planes. Imagine being able to have 100% control of fuel flow without any tweezers, hemostats, frost bitten fingers, etc.
Old 12-08-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MJD View Post
My big goal was .049 speed vs 1cc. There is a FIRE .061 version as well, but that's cheating. Since .049 is such a traditional standard in NA, I was more interested in seeing what the potential was. And having fun in the process.

Just from these few flights I can tell it would be best to go down 20% or so in wing area and overall size. It would still be lightly loaded.

The fact that I - so far - find this engine easy to run is a testament to the ruggedness and design. Still squeaky tight at TDC.
Is that wing designed so you could cut it down..?
I was so thrilled with the FORA .049 that there weren't any second thoughts about whether or not I should have looked for the .061 version. These combat engines are the result of a world wide effort to supply FAI competitors with the very best and as you'll notice from year to year new versions of all the top brands are introduced.
I've got a frightening amount of burned out Cox, VA, Norvel, AP engines and parts in bin boxes and coffee cans. It's like looking at piles of half burned dollar bills. They are too charred to be able to spend, but you can still make out how much they were worth at one time.
I've never carried any spares an have no bits and pieces of the Russian competition engines though....just good running specimens that are in one piece.
One Cyclon .061 and one Zalp .15 and that is more fun than you can shake a stick at on low nitro.
Piecing together a Cox or a Norvel for nostalgia is still fun
Old 12-08-2014, 09:27 AM
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As far as breaking props on landing, a single blade prop is safer that way. It can stick straight up as it comes up on compression. Of course Murphy is still involved. I would want a shutoff with a single blade prop for sure. If something happens, it will shake the plane to death in no time. When I did the FAI speed thing way back in the late 70's, I was stuck at 140 with the two blade props. As soon as I tried a single blade prop., the speed went up so much, that I was unable to keep up with the plane in the pylon. I would guess 15 mph anyway. A good thing about the single blade is that a small file on the hub can change the pitch a bit. I would be afraid to run the APC at 40,000 rpm, although it would be nice to hear. I got the (Fora) .049 instead of the .06 because the rules limit it to that for control line speed or combat. It is quite a big heavy motor for an .049. It also has a huge venturi and pressed in needle valve. Kind of hard to run on suction like I had planned, and difficult to change. I guess I will be stuck with a bladder.

Last edited by aspeed; 12-08-2014 at 09:30 AM.
Old 12-08-2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
Is that wing designed so you could cut it down..?
I was so thrilled with the FORA .049 that there weren't any second thoughts about whether or not I should have looked for the .061 version. These combat engines are the result of a world wide effort to supply FAI competitors with the very best and as you'll notice from year to year new versions of all the top brands are introduced.
I've got a frightening amount of burned out Cox, VA, Norvel, AP engines and parts in bin boxes and coffee cans. It's like looking at piles of half burned dollar bills. They are too charred to be able to spend, but you can still make out how much they were worth at one time.
I've never carried any spares an have no bits and pieces of the Russian competition engines though....just good running specimens that are in one piece.
One Cyclon .061 and one Zalp .15 and that is more fun than you can shake a stick at on low nitro.
Piecing together a Cox or a Norvel for nostalgia is still fun
Yeah it would be no prob to lop off the section outboard of the ailerons, and blend in a new tip. I might not have the stomach for it, depends how hot and horny this thing makes me for a new, dedicated speed project. I would be hard pressed to improve on small pylon racer wings made in CNC molds, however. I'm thinking about commercial wings and new fuse etc.

I haven't burned up as many engines as you by a long shot - I look at my 1/2A drawer and think about how many of the engines will never get screwed onto anything in my lifetime.
Old 12-08-2014, 10:50 AM
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With a one blader, if nothing else the probability of a prop-safe landing is about doubled. I set the prop so that light airflow will bring it up to the first hints of compression at 1/4 to 3. Whether it actually stops there or not is another thing. Flooding out on a bladder likely is no help.

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