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OS .15 mods

Old 04-23-2015, 08:38 AM
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AndyW
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Default OS .15 mods

Apologies to all for the off topic posts to my Youtube channel in the last few years. I hope I haven't lost too many subscribers. I'm struggling to get back into the groove, it hasn't been easy. First, with two brothers and their battle with cancer and then, for the last 3 years, taking care of my elderly Mom and her battle with post herpetic neuralgia, the aftermath of a shingles attack. Painful and brutal, I had to care for her 24/7 with some help from a sister and sister in law, THANK YOU Helen and Debbie.

Mom died mid November last and it's been a dark, cold, depressing winter. Whatever happened to Global Warming. Now that the snow is gone and the sun is shining, it seems a bit of spring fever has kicked in.

Here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihy7...ature=youtu.be we have a run of the OS .15 and on an 8 X 6 APC prop and 20% nitro, the performance is OK at 12.5K. Let's hope we can do better. As mentioned in the video, I'm not going to make a turbo head,,, the bigger the engine, the less we get for our trouble. This I determined by making turbo inserts for the Norvel .15 and .25, getting only a few hundred RPM at best.

I'll be doing the usual crank mods and will also show how you can anodize the piston. The crank needs a Dremel and some JB Weld. Anodizing requires some jars, some battery acid and a 12 volt power supply. Also some bits of aluminum to make clamps, some alligator clips and wire. Much of this is in the typical shop and battery acid is from your automotive store although with sealed batteries the norm these days, this may be a problem in some areas.

Unlike Norvel and their anodized liner, this is not HARD anodizing. While any anodizing is harder than the base aluminum, we are aiming for a slight increase in diameter to help compression seal. Anodizing aluminum also creates pores on the surface which fills with oil and this too, can improve compression seal. This can also improve mileage, as there's less blow by of fuel on the upstroke.

I may try resizing the liner but most won't have the tools to make the clamp so that may or may not be included. We want for you to be able to affect improvements to any engine you may have or even revive one that's worn out.

More to come. Good to be back.

Last edited by AndyW; 04-23-2015 at 07:19 PM.
Old 04-23-2015, 02:40 PM
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combatpigg
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Sorry to hear about your troubles Andy. I'm glad your Mom is free from her suffering and let's pray we all get to reunite some way, some how.
I've got 2 ziplock bags full of new OS .15 internal parts after breaking 2 crankcases on consecutive outings while flying "Official Rulebook" Slow Survivable Combat [SSC]. Those 40 oz [minimum] planes act like piledrivers when you crash them on hard ground. In both cases, the cylinder kept traveling forward just enough after the rest of the plane stopped to crack the case.
I retired from SSC right after and still have a small fleet of planes better suited for much slower PAW .15 diesels.
Old 04-23-2015, 06:14 PM
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You got to have your health first. Maybe happiness is better, because you would have your health and wealth to be that way? I played a bit with my LA .15's. I used a 7-5 M Airscrew for the tests. I soldered up the crank hole to give a radius, and ground a bit of the window for 300 rpm, and made a turbo head for 800 rpm after the crank was done for a total of 18,200. No muffler and 10%. I guess it was not really worth the trouble for the head, just removing the shim made a bit of difference. The ASP .15 however loved the turbo head with 2,500 rpm gain. I think the Norvel and LA were pretty good on the stock plug head. I wonder if a pipe or mousse can would be worth the trouble. Don't know where to get a header.
Old 04-23-2015, 07:00 PM
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AndyW
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Thanks CP, you've been a good friend among many others in our sphere of interest. I'm compelled to elaborate on some of my cranky posts over the last few years.

At the age of 13, I lost my Dad, just one year after getting my first engine, a Cox Babe Bee. I was building a free flight Spitfire for it, ( ya I know, but I was a kid) and I was looking forward to having him see it fly. At 23, I lost my step dad, a great guy who encouraged and financially supported my efforts in the hobby. At 40, I lost my youngest brother, 10 years my junior, who had a strange malady that the doctors couldn't figure out. He was sick for ten years and all my disposable income went to his care. By 60, two more brothers succumbed to cancer. Not through with me yet, fate dealt me another blow and that nearly finished me. Combining painkillers for a lifetime back problem and sleep meds makes you lose perspective and common sense and that's when I'd go on a rant about something, or nothing.

Right now, I'm dealing with withdrawal from these prescribed drugs and I wonder sometimes what normal feels like. It seems that doctors aren't trained to recognize side effects of the drugs they so freely hand out, never mind withdrawal symptoms. I get a lot of support from benzobuddies.com

One thing I DO know for sure is that IF there's a heaven, my people are there. And IF there's a heaven, there's a hell for those who dropped the ball on them, didn't care, covered up their incompetence or acted with a total lack of compassion. Healthcare givers, my ass.

Myself, I like to think that there's such a thing as re-incarnation. I would love to go to a jungle planet and be a 15 ft, blue giant with carbon fiber bones and riding flying dinosaurs. Any time depression starts to creep in, I watch Avatar and get a real boost of hope. One of the best Sci-Fi movies of all time, in my opinion, I must have seen it over a dozen times.

As I start on my dozen or more bagged projects, I hope to get the old fire back. Your encouragement is much appreciated.

But aboot SSC, what the heck is survivable about it? What was the concept?

And now you're flying DIESELS ??? Seriously ?? Can you give me some numbers to compare with my Norvel .15 conversions ?

I've often wondered why the Norvel glow .15 is such a dud. Could it be that it's really a diesel in disguise ? I had a very early one, much mileage on it with no pinch at TDC but nice snap over when flipped. Despite that, two drops into the intake and it would fire off, every single time, BY HAND, on the first flip. This was on open exhaust, it didn't behave so nicely with a muffler.

I have NIB, Norvel .15s, both RC and non-RC. Maybe I'll make another diesel head and give one a go. Napalm in the morning? Nah, KEROSENE in the morning, that's what I love. ( sorry neighbours).

Last edited by AndyW; 04-25-2015 at 01:02 PM.
Old 04-23-2015, 07:15 PM
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Aspeed, thanks for the input. The crank mods I don't expect a lot from but I think that the anodizing will give us something to cheer aboot. I'm running a muffler and will take it off too for some runs, just to compare.

This reminds me of the VA MK2 I had that didn't deliver the goods. So I anodized the piston and didn't get much out of that. The pinch at TDC improved but somehow didn't feel right. So I lapped the piston and surprise, surprise. When you anodize piston grade aluminum, it turns grey. Or is that gray? Anyway, after lapping, there showed multiple and serious, high and low spots, all around the piston.

The result was a VERY light fit where there once was some pinch. Did I ruin it? Not on your life. THAT VA MK2 was the best I ever had, outran my best NIB by a large measure 1.5K as I recall. Thing is, cold, with a bit of oil, it had a nice snap over. When HOT it had even better snap over. Go figure. Well, that makes sense. With a lapped, perfect fit, when hot, the oil was slippery as heck with no drag in the system. Boy, you sure learn a lot by accident. Serendipity they call it, I think.
Old 04-23-2015, 07:21 PM
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aspeed
 
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My Norvel .15 BB didn't respond well to the head, just a thousand. I wrote some #s. No muffler 16,900 rpm. .202" control line carb 18,900. Turbo plug give me 20,400. So the carb is the biggest setback, and the head not quite so much. I think the muffler is a thief too. I opened my muffler up but don't have it on the plane yet to try it out. (SPAD Gnat) I found health problems have to be solved on your own. Doctors are good consultants, but that is about it.

Last edited by aspeed; 04-23-2015 at 07:24 PM.
Old 04-23-2015, 07:26 PM
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The VA is AAC, right? Tighter when hot means the piston could maybe grow with heat. Not like the ABC which goes looser. Some are so tight when cold that they seize in frigid weather like my NV .074.
Old 04-23-2015, 07:38 PM
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Andy, I've run the PAW .15s with 8 x 6 nylon props on 500 sq inch flying wings for years. It's really slow paced, easy to avoid mid airs and it requires patience and strategy because the power just isn't there to attack at will for the entire flight. You will heat the engines up with too much fur ball activity, then need to retreat to higher ground to let the engine cool off. With 4 ounce tanks, the rounds can last 20 minutes. I think the engines turn 11,000, maybe 12,000. For some RC Combat guys, this is too "laid back"...especially when you provide lawn chairs and an ice chest at the "Command HQ".
Old 04-23-2015, 09:05 PM
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Duplicate post. Must be the meds.

Last edited by AndyW; 04-23-2015 at 11:01 PM.
Old 04-23-2015, 09:34 PM
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AndyW
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Originally Posted by aspeed View Post
The VA is AAC, right? Tighter when hot means the piston could maybe grow with heat. Not like the ABC which goes looser. Some are so tight when cold that they seize in frigid weather like my NV .074.
Actually, the VA MK2 are true ABC. My suspicion is, that the growth of both piston and chromed brass liner has been matched perfectly. They have the metallurgy figured out just right. Their honing appears to be a bit shy on accuracy.

Sorry to contradict you on the Norvel as well. I mention the .15 that, as a diesel with no pinch it to runs as one of my best because the piston to liner fit is perfect. No drag in the system, hot or cold. As the Norvels are unique, being AAAN, aluminum, aluminum, nickle, anodize, I suspect that your Norvels seizing up in cold weather has another cause. You see my sport flyer on skis doing just fine. They start right up even when caked with snow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuS3r-rQ9rM

The anodized, cylinder means the inner surface is porous. Anodizing is actually a form of aluminum oxide, and that's an abrasive used in sandpaper. But the pores hold oil and this saves the day along with creating superior compression seal. I learned early that if you OVER PRIME, you can wash the oil out of the pores and get a piston seizure all too easily, especially if hand started. I can drown an ABC, AAN engine and just flip and flip till the excess is cleared out. With a Norvel, no way. The first, Norvel, Litemachines engines were set up tight just like the fixed wing engines. This was a nightmare for Litemachines because guys were priming them generously and whacking the engine with a starter. Many, many engines went back to LM with bent rods. In the end, when LM was selling off their engine inventory, their Norvel engines were set up with ZERO pinch. This was not bad news as with no pinch at all, they started promptly and ran as strongly as you could want.

I had a G-Mark .06 on my first. 1/2A Stik. It ran well and after the addition of an airbleed screw, throttled quite nicely. One day, I used 40% nitro and maxed the needle out and let it scream, full throttle, in dives that I expected would break something. That session managed to affect a perfect, piston to cylinder fit,, keep in mind, the G-Mark was a steel on steel engine just like a Cox. So after that, the usual, 15% fuel delivered far better performance than before. Some snap over was missing but the piston to cylinder fit seems to have been made more perfect with that one screaming run. The piston had a beautifully polished, mirror like surface.

This is much like the later, LM engines with no pinch at all. No pinch but Norvel managed to give you a better fit,,, OR, the oil loading of the anodized cylinder is the culprit. A less than perfect fit is compensated for by the heavy oil film carried by the porous, anodized surface.

Some speculation here, but makes sense to me.

Last edited by AndyW; 04-23-2015 at 09:43 PM.
Old 04-23-2015, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
Andy, I've run the PAW .15s with 8 x 6 nylon props on 500 sq inch flying wings for years. It's really slow paced, easy to avoid mid airs and it requires patience and strategy because the power just isn't there to attack at will for the entire flight. You will heat the engines up with too much fur ball activity, then need to retreat to higher ground to let the engine cool off. With 4 ounce tanks, the rounds can last 20 minutes. I think the engines turn 11,000, maybe 12,000. For some RC Combat guys, this is too "laid back"...especially when you provide lawn chairs and an ice chest at the "Command HQ".
Command HQ?? Oh, the center of the circle. So what's in the ice chest eh, liquid meds?

Yeah, I can see that, like WW1 Fokkers and Nieuports as opposed to Messerschmidts and Spitfires.
Old 04-24-2015, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
Command HQ?? Oh, the center of the circle. So what's in the ice chest eh, liquid meds?

Yeah, I can see that, like WW1 Fokkers and Nieuports as opposed to Messerschmidts and Spitfires.
To set up Command HQ we drive around on the chest high grass to flatten it, then lay out a tarp, then the chairs and the ice chest. The rest of the field is chest high grass, so a lot of crashes with .049 - .061 powered planes never reach the ground. The drawback is finding downed planes in the tall stuff, but the attached streamers usually lead us to the crash site. Some times the engine is still running like a weed eater, waiting to be relaunched. This is truly SSC at it's best when you can rack up 100 minutes of air time during the day with just 1 or 2 planes injured. Fatalities are very rare, but the planes will gain too much weight to be good dog fighters after too many quick repairs.
Too bad more folks have never tried it this way. The important thing is to keep the weight low, the engines identical in power and low key. The AP .061s with 6 x 3 props were just perfect for this. The only "mod" was wiring the mufflers tightly to the case instead of using the supplied spring clip.
Old 04-24-2015, 04:49 PM
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Hi, Chuck. Got any pics of those combat planes? Sounds like fun!
Old 04-24-2015, 06:20 PM
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Mike..I'll need to go into the rafters.........

Here's a similar "wing", but powered by a Super Tiger .15 instead of a PAW.15...... https://youtu.be/6Uu8nqqhYxo?list=UUvajm0pYeG7PvspskjQLq9A
Old 04-24-2015, 06:31 PM
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I may have to whip one of those out. That would scare the hell out of our "park flyer" guys. Might be a good home for my .15CVA.
Old 04-24-2015, 06:52 PM
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You could build a .35 VooDoo, but equip it with a .15, 4 oz tank, elevons and fins. What works just fine is a solid pine center rib that you can bolt the engine mount beams to. Make the beams extra long. This way you can arrive at the perfect CG after the rest of the plane is entirely finished and RTF .
Old 04-24-2015, 11:44 PM
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Hi CP,
The key to 'High Speed Jousting', is to throttle back before ground impact !
There is allot more room in the 'Combat Box' than around Pylons.
Started with .15s, went to ,25s, Scale Combat is still cool, and pure adrenaline for pilots and spectators !
Speaking of OS.15s...

Wonderfull to see you back here Andy.
I'm Manic/Depressive, this song works for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF6vy2Lo51o
Somehow being honest, allways works for me.

I have a new without box OS FP.15, I would like to send you for your tryouts Andy.
The 12V piston anodizing sounds really cool.
Got a bunch of burnt .25s that got toasted when the OSFX came out.
Perfect project to wean my 85yr old Dad off of electrics ! ! !

Great to see you back Andy,

Take care,
Have fun,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
Maac 6437
Unabashed Combat Team

P.S. More music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJbRLHh3j_8
Cheers !

Last edited by Cross Check; 04-25-2015 at 01:07 AM.
Old 04-25-2015, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
Mike..I'll need to go into the rafters.........

Here's a similar "wing", but powered by a Super Tiger .15 instead of a PAW.15...... https://youtu.be/6Uu8nqqhYxo?list=UUvajm0pYeG7PvspskjQLq9A
Just spent a half hour watching the fun. OMG, a plane with the chord wider than the span? Shoot, I closed my eyes and could swear it was a swarm of hornets I was listening to.
Old 04-25-2015, 06:29 AM
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AndyW
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Thanks Cross Check. Are you a Leafs fan? I was, in the days of Darryl Sittler and Lanny McDonald.

And yes, thanks, that .15 FP would be welcome. I'll have a look in my stash for a NIB Norvel .15 if you'd like.

Love the music and I know what you mean by manic,, never been really depressed though. Fondling an engine usually gets me past that.

You can look up anodizing and get to see some pretty elaborate set ups. In reality, for us, it's far more simple and do-able. I'll also include how colour anodizing can be done.
Old 04-25-2015, 09:05 AM
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Hi Andy,

Unfortunatly, a Leafs Fan. Tried changing teams, my depressive side is more brain injury related, just like the people who keep paying to watch the currant 'so called' Leafs.! Watching them win the Cup, cut into my early stick/tissue/rubber/FF learning curve. Road Hockey was king... 'Car!'... Bobby Baun and Mike Palmateer are still my favourites.

PM me your address to send the 'new' OSFP.15. I have others I plan on completly 'burning/wearing out'. Sweet engines !
It will be awesome to see what you can do with this project Andy.

I'd like to take the time, to Thank Everyone Here.

Taking the time to share projects here.... Is Much Appreciated ! ! !

"Back in the Days", the latest magazine would show up at the LHS.
I want this, took 3+ weeks to get here, just in time for the next mag, to want more !

Take care,
Have fun,
Dave'crosscheck'Fallowfield
Maac 6437
Unabashed Combat Team
Old 04-25-2015, 10:22 AM
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AndyW
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The one thing I regret the most in life is that I never got to see the Leafs play in the Forum. The icing would be to see them joust with the Habs. Win or not, that would have been on my bucket list. The other thing I wanted to do is to see the Shuttle go up.

Ah well, regrets are best put aside. The future is what we make of it, we can't control the past.

I'll send you a PM and hold a Norvel on the top shelf for you if you ever get to wonder, what's all the fuss aboot.
Old 04-25-2015, 01:11 PM
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AndyW
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Alright, here are the mods to the crank. A stock crank is nearby. Not much to say, most of you will know what you're seeing. Here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scgM...ature=youtu.be you can see it run.

For the trouble, 500 RPM isn't worth it,,, at least on this engine. They do cranks like this on very high performance engines so there must be other factors that crank design takes advantage of. That the LA is a mild engine for sport is revealed by the fact that there's no boost port. That I won't tackle, don't want to disturb the integrity of the plating.

Next up is anodizing.
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Old 04-25-2015, 01:23 PM
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Great to see you back here Andy.

I think you might be over propping the engine. The largest prop I would put on a .15 engine is the APC 8x4 and they should spin that at around 15000rpm to be worth the effort. They run even better on a 7x5, should give you around 18000rpm

The Norvel .15 is great engine, the only thing that held mine back was the stock carb. It is simply too restrictive, it gives great fuel draw and awesome idle though, mine would run at 2500rpm all day.
Old 04-25-2015, 01:49 PM
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Here are a series of pictures revealing the mysterious process of anodizing aluminum. When you do a search on the subject you can see some wonderful and elaborate set ups. For our purposes, this is not necessary. It might look crude and Mickey Mouse, ( and it is) but it's all you need.

We are dealing with acid so all precautions must be followed. An apron, or clothes you'd use to clean out the barn. Full, wrap around goggles. Latex gloves. A paper towel dispenser nearby or rags. A fire extinguisher. Every shop should have two. VERY important is aggressive ventilation. Opening a window or two won't do. I have a 1/4HP exhaust fan with a positionable duct. The bubbles you see on the Cathode and anode are HYDROGEN. And maybe some other nasties that can burn your lungs or explode. Y'all be warned if you want to try this. Best done outside and like Lipos, never unattended.

Battery acid is available at some automotive outlets. With sealed batteries the norm these days, this may be a problem. Battery acid is not pure, it's diluted and I THINK it's 50/50 with water. We are diluting this further with 50/50 battery acid and distilled water. Note the label on the jar. If you have access to pure, sulfuric acid, take note the ratio should be 25% pure acid and 75% water.

The clamp must be made of aluminum. Where the clamp touches will leave a spot of unanodized material. In this case, we are clamping on the inside of the piston.

Your piston must be washed and rinsed 3 or more times. If water beads on it, it isn't clean. Washing once won't do it. You need to use the "water break" test. Water won't bead, it'll lay flat or just run off.

Note that the positive lead, the ANODE goes to the piece, hence the term anodizing. The negative lead is attached to a strip of lead. Make sure that the two never touch.

And that's pretty much it.

I used to use a deep discharge marine battery, my field box battery and a crude, adjustable power supply. This is my first use of a hacked computer power supply. Something to adjust the current is in the works. But in our case, to anodize a small piston, the current was just under 100 mAh so a field box battery should do just fine. It only takes 15 minutes to get a nice, grey, anodized surface on the piston and that's all we need. If you leave it in for a few hours, like I did once, by mistake, you'll find that at one point anodizing stops and corrosion sets in.

Anodizing normal grades of aluminum like 6061 will require much higher current and a longer time in the bath, at least an hour. Pistons have a high silicon content and won't anodize like most aluminums (hence the self limiting current) but what anodizing DOES occur is sufficient for our needs.

After about 15 minutes when you get a nice, grey colour, take out your piece, put it in a strainer and rinse it off under tap water. Then use a heat gun to dry it off and get it nice and hot. Lay it on a folded, paper towel and drown it in castor oil while it's hot. This will soak the pores and as the piston cools the oil will be drawn into them.

Re-assemble your engine and see if it was beneficial. Will post the results after supper.

Colour anodizing will be discussed on a separate thread.
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Last edited by AndyW; 04-25-2015 at 07:44 PM.
Old 04-25-2015, 03:00 PM
  #25  
AndyW
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Originally Posted by Mr Cox View Post
Great to see you back here Andy.

I think you might be over propping the engine. The largest prop I would put on a .15 engine is the APC 8x4 and they should spin that at around 15000rpm to be worth the effort. They run even better on a 7x5, should give you around 18000rpm

The Norvel .15 is great engine, the only thing that held mine back was the stock carb. It is simply too restrictive, it gives great fuel draw and awesome idle though, mine would run at 2500rpm all day.
Thanks Mr Cox, I appreciate the encouragement.

I AM using an APC 8 X 4 and that's the best this engine will do, even on 20% fuel. It IS, after all, an LA. Two were donated and both were put away wet with rust all over, inside. I used the best of the parts to make one. Expendable, just to play with and see what might make them better that the average guy can try

YES, the Norvel .15 was held back by the throttle and maybe that crazy muffler. Norvel .25 throttles are a drop in replacement and I'll be doing that experiment as time goes on,, thanks for reminding me.

I'll be modifying a case to take a normal muffler in the .15 to 25 size.

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