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Norvel AME .049 (.8cc)

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Norvel AME .049 (.8cc)

Old 09-27-2017, 05:02 PM
  #26  
aspeed
 
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I have noticed that the plugs rub away the taper in the aluminum and protrude after a few times tightening. The Nelson plugs have a better taper that doesn't seem to rub away the aluminum so much. I have not played with too many brands yet, well, because they are $15. Merlins are only $6.
Old 09-27-2017, 09:56 PM
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I have only used turbo plugs from OS an Merlin, and these are interchangable. The threaded part is a little longer on the Merlin while the conical part is the same.

There are lots of options to choose from, and the only ones to really stay away from I would say are the ones that use a regular plug, They can be made to work if the head volume is right (the Mecoa ones needs modification in a lathe) and the threads of the glow plug are sealed below the copper washer with Hylomar (or similar "form a gasket" stuff).

If you have access to a lathe you can also make you own turbo heads. Either from an old plug or as an insert for the stock clamp ring.

Below is a little line-up of heads I did for another thread on this topic. Starting from the left we have the stock Cox (low compression), Mecoa for a regular glow plug (an Enya #4 plug is in there now), a regular Cox head converted to Turbo (by me), a Valentine dedicated Turbo head and finally the Galbreath Nelson plug head;

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And here is also a turbo head I made from a stock cox .020 head, the plug is only hanging on by a thread or two (!) but it works:

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Last edited by Mr Cox; 09-27-2017 at 10:05 PM.
Old 09-28-2017, 03:02 AM
  #28  
1QwkSport2.5r
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I think the Nelson head is going to be the Best option for me. Thanks for posting all of those pictures. That is great information to have!

Stupid question that I may have asked before - my .049 came to me with a Thimble Drome 6x3 on it, and I got my hands on a few other props. A white nylon 5x3, a 5x3 wood (maybe an old zinger or something; it's not marked otherwise), and I have an APC 5.5x2.5. Is the APC suitable? I don't see why it wouldn't, but APC tends to load engines more than other props do.

Last edited by 1QwkSport2.5r; 09-28-2017 at 03:12 AM.
Old 09-28-2017, 06:11 AM
  #29  
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I had one of the older Norvels that would not run- at all - on a 6-3, or larger load. A 4 1/4 -4 and 5-3 it sang really nice. Pic of a Cox head I did a long time ago probably for a short plug, the squish band was sanded a bit to make up for the compression loss that the threading does. I forget the results, it may have been 30 years ago. The other is the Merlin which is very similar to the two piece stock Norvel head and gives similar results to the Cox TD head.
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Old 09-28-2017, 08:50 AM
  #30  
1QwkSport2.5r
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I figured a 5x3 was the way to go, but would a 5.5x2.5 not be comparable? Maybe cut it down to 5.25" diameter? The blade tips are pretty thin, so trimming it down wouldn't be hard. Should make it rev pretty good.
Old 09-28-2017, 10:18 AM
  #31  
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It is probably fine at 5.5. Depends on your plane. The motor I had was timed different than the newer ones I think, the others seem fine with the regular size props. I think I have a dozen or so.
Old 09-29-2017, 12:25 AM
  #32  
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2.5 pitch will make for a slow plane the prop is best left as is for a 3D type plane or FF where thrust
is the primary need. Do you have a pic of the Ugly Stick plane what is the weight est. with the IC power
and it's wing span? For sport flying with the Norvel AME you would not be hurting with a MA 5x4 good
mix of thrust and speed.

Here is a vid with a APC 4.2x4 Norvel AME .061 using a Sportswerks header and Profi 1/2A tuned pipe,
this setup was for speed but a 4.5x4.5 would be better. You can buy the pipe and header currently
for anyone wanting to make it happen both items are for sale on ebay right now 5 pipes left last time
as of the other day.


AmpAbuser
Published on Aug 10, 2015

.061 AME Norvel on a Profi Tuned Pipe Non SPI version with 150 deg exhaust timing APC 4.2x4
2oz of bench running prior to first flight per vid a bit rich. In the hand best peak 24.8k / 96F summer day.
Best level pass 28.6k down wind. 12oz all up weight 5ch plane with flaps 88sq. in 28in span

Last edited by Pond Skipper; 09-29-2017 at 12:27 AM.
Old 09-29-2017, 02:21 AM
  #33  
1QwkSport2.5r
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I'm still a novice pilot, so a slow plane is a good plane to learn on.

Currently weighs 200g - but there's still an ESC and receiver buried inside that will get changed. But somewhere in the 10oz range - maybe a bit much for an .049, but I had an AP .061 fly a Norvel trainer far worse (heavier and more underpowered). Wingspan is 33" and it's all foam. The firewall is liteply 1/8" with a block of balsa glued to it for the electric motor it originally had. I'd remove all that and replace with something a little stronger.

And just something to keep in mind - 1/2a props are hard to get locally, and paying shipping on a couple of $2 props is a little ridiculous, so realistically I'm looking for two or three prop sizes to try that will work well enough to fly a plane for a minute at a time.
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Last edited by 1QwkSport2.5r; 09-29-2017 at 03:51 AM.
Old 09-29-2017, 06:38 AM
  #34  
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At 32" that will be plenty fast with even a 2" pitch, at least for the first few flights. We used to go by 42" with an .049 without a throttle. The Ace wing planes were around 36" and seemed quite lively at full bore. I have an .06 on an Ace Simple 400 and it takes me a few circuits before I go to full throttle. I am pretty old and slow, but not that bad really.
Old 09-29-2017, 06:55 AM
  #35  
1QwkSport2.5r
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I figured the .049 should fly the Stik okay. I got the plane and engine for free too, so I'm not heartbroken if it gets rekitted. I do want it to fly reasonably since I'm not very skilled yet.
Old 10-02-2017, 04:58 AM
  #36  
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I am going to order the Galbreath conversion head for Nelson plugs to fit my Norvel .049. They sell the standard Nelson HD plugs (I'm guessing they must be a colder heat range?) as well as hot Nelson plugs. Which would be best off with? I'd like to get a couple plugs with the conversion head and would like to not need to get both of I don't need to. There's also a mention on the Galbreath site about using only one shim if going from a Norvel head to the Nelson head - I think they mean the Norvel glow head and not the standard plug head? Are the Norvel glow heads and standard plug heads setup with the same chamber size/volume? I have two shims currently (I don't know how thick they are off hand), so my question is what glow plugs should I get and do I need to have more than two shims? I plan to use a typical 1/2a fuel using 15-20% nitro and 22-24% oil. I removed one shim from under the standard head and have a long glow plug with a single washer under it - the compression is still a little soft (I'm not real experienced with these smaller engines, so I don't know what is acceptable/"good") and the piston seal isn't the best, but it does feel a little stronger with only one shim installed.

Last edited by 1QwkSport2.5r; 10-02-2017 at 05:37 AM.
Old 10-02-2017, 08:07 AM
  #37  
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This is were the fine tuning begins, so it is very hard to give precis answers.
I have used both the regular and the hotter Nelson plugs, and I think the hotter ones throttle a little better but not as quite as well as a hot turbo plug (OS P4 as an example). For full throttle, and all out power, the regular Nelsons are fine and pretty hard to beat.

The optimum number of head shims depends on the fuel (oil and nitro content), prop size and the individual engine. I prefer to start from an extra head shim or two and then work down from there, remove a shim and compare needle setting and rpm numbers and overall handling. This is safer than starting with too few head shims which can overheat the engine. Remember also that an engine that is less sensitive to the needle setting will often perform better in the air, compared to an engine that you can just about tweak the needle for on the ground for a few extra rpm.

If you are serious about 1/2A flying you will soon acquire a respectable collection of engines, heads and heads shims, plus a number of suitable props. It is just a natural part of the hobby.
Old 10-02-2017, 09:02 AM
  #38  
1QwkSport2.5r
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Originally Posted by Mr Cox View Post
This is were the fine tuning begins, so it is very hard to give precis answers.
I have used both the regular and the hotter Nelson plugs, and I think the hotter ones throttle a little better but not as quite as well as a hot turbo plug (OS P4 as an example). For full throttle, and all out power, the regular Nelsons are fine and pretty hard to beat.

The optimum number of head shims depends on the fuel (oil and nitro content), prop size and the individual engine. I prefer to start from an extra head shim or two and then work down from there, remove a shim and compare needle setting and rpm numbers and overall handling. This is safer than starting with too few head shims which can overheat the engine. Remember also that an engine that is less sensitive to the needle setting will often perform better in the air, compared to an engine that you can just about tweak the needle for on the ground for a few extra rpm.

If you are serious about 1/2A flying you will soon acquire a respectable collection of engines, heads and heads shims, plus a number of suitable props. It is just a natural part of the hobby.
Fair enough - thank you. Maybe I'll get a couple of the regular HDs and try it out. Since the condition of the engine has me concerned, I don't want to invest too much into it just yet. I'm not sure how crazy I'll get with 1/2a just yet.
Old 10-04-2017, 05:41 PM
  #39  
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I ran into a problem with a pre-Revlite AME .061 in the middle of a build log of a Hornet, "on the other rc website" in the 1/2A forum.
My norvel would braaaaap but not run.
Dragged out info on different threads, some threads more than 10 years old, addressing the problem.
Got input from several smart/experienced guys.
If you get the piston/cylinder/timing thing wrung out and still have problems, mine needed to have the prop shaft lapped - was just a little tight.
I was trying all different numbers of shims, heads, etc. Including the Galbreath/Nelson setup.
Turns out mine had a known "defect" that a subset of them had.
After I cautiously lapped the shaft, I got an honest run from it.
I got interrupted by some things and haven't gotten back to it, but I believe I need to give it another treatment, it was still tight.
As the engine heated up the shaft would bind. Doesn't seem to do any permanent damage, but just held right up, abruptly.

Hope this helps.

Hope this helps.
Old 10-04-2017, 05:55 PM
  #40  
1QwkSport2.5r
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I don't think mine has the crankshaft problem. Mine just doesn't run at the rpm it should. IIRC I was getting about 16-17k from a 5.5x2.5 APC prop on 10% nitro fuel. The standard glow plug robs 1-1.5k rpm and the weak piston seal robs some. This engine should turn this prop above 20k.

Thanks for the heads up though.
Old 10-05-2017, 06:19 AM
  #41  
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Too Tight a crank is a real possibility
Easy enough to check...better with a Thermal heat gun

Run the engine for a minuet or three up to temp. Pinch off...feel or test the nose to see if it is hotter than the aft case
Careful if using finger... I scorched mine first time despite having a thermal gun across the rom

I run a LOT of Norvel .049 and .061 for combat planes... most of them Have a tight pinch and hard to break in initially...most seemed like duds until I saw the too tight crank posts... Quick polishing of the crank is all it took to get over 1500RPM increase
I only run Galbraith head and Nelson standard plugs and 25% Nitro in mine

My method of polishing the crank front bearing area is to chuck up the nose of the crank in my small electric drill...
I bought one of the Pine Wood derby hop up kits from Hobby Lobby one time and it has a Diamond paste for polishing the soft (Nail) Axle
I went on line to find the diamond Paste maker and found a source for the 5 grits they offer

Thats my OCD way...but I have friends that do it all the time with first crocus cloth then 800 grit and then 1200 grit and call it done
Trust me the crank is hard enough that you would have a hard time getting it too loose
Old 10-05-2017, 07:38 AM
  #42  
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The crank spins easier after the engine is warmed up. It will hand start warm significantly easier than when it's cold. I seriously doubt the crank fit is the problem with the engine.

I have a Galbreath head with a couple Nelson HD plugs en route to me from Larry Driskill. I think he was going to send some extra shims too.

How many shims do you use in your .049s with the Galbreath head using 25% nitro and what prop? (I will reread past replies because sleep deprivation makes me forget things easily. Darn kids!
Old 10-07-2017, 05:17 AM
  #43  
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I received my Galbreath head and Nelson glow plugs. Quite the difference in shape of the chamber, but the compression feel isn't much different. Adding a few drops of oil to the cylinder helped a bit. I have the head and plug snugged up with two head shims and I have two extra shims. I'm gonna run it with two shims on some 20/22 fuel and see how it goes.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:45 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 1QwkSport2.5r View Post
I have a Norvel AME .049 that I intend to put on a currently-electric ugly stick. It originally came with a standard glow plug head and 3 or 4 head shims. I've run it a couple times, but it didnt run real consistent (the RC throttle was locked wide open). I'd like to see if I can get my hands on a new piston and cylinder, and a drop-in type glow head. I know there are Nelson plug heads available, but are they equal in performance to the drop-in glow heads? Does anyone have an AME .049 piston and cylinder that's in good shape or new they'd let go of? I've found NOS parts on eBay, but they wanted exuberant prices for those parts and I'm on a tight budget. Just wondering if there's anyone that might have some wisdom and/or parts to share?
I just now received some Norvel parts which I ordered from NV Engines. No cylinders in my order but I have gotten them in the past. give him a try I know he is still in business Airplane engines there are parts lists and diagrams available on his site too
http://www.nvengines.com/index.php?p...mart&Itemid=65

Last edited by gmeyers; 12-04-2017 at 01:52 PM.
Old 12-04-2017, 05:36 PM
  #45  
1QwkSport2.5r
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The only new stock parts they make are Big Mig. They do not make AME .049 parts anymore based on the email I got from them. I want to keep my engine an AME. Thanks for the info though.
Old 12-04-2017, 08:43 PM
  #46  
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They do sell the AME CL version still
I just ordered a turbo plug adapter from them for my .074

GMeyers how long did it take for your order to show up?
Old 12-05-2017, 01:27 AM
  #47  
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I put a Galbreath/Nelson plug head on my .049. The Nelson plugs are cheaper than the turbos and about equal the performance as I’ve been told.

NV Engines do not make an AME .049 anything currently. If they list such an engine on their website, it’s an error. I emailed them and went back and forth asking questions and the response to all was “no”. I wish I’d kept the email they had sent me previously.
Old 06-21-2021, 05:14 PM
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I bought two of these in blister packs from Northern Velocity back in '95 for what reason, I don't even remember and have yet to run them -

Questions here on the AME 0.8 .049 MkII w/o throttle while making some generalized assumptions but please set me straight if incorrect:

The muffler and spring starter are unnecessary and can be removed?
The venturi appears to be glued into the crankcase and is too big for fuel draw on suction, so how do you neck it down?
Is it better to run some kind of pressurized fuel system and leave the venturi alone?
The stock head and glow plug should at least be replaced with a Cox high compression glow head?
How to reduce diameter or fill the oversize hole on APC props to center them on the drive plate?
Should the crank be lapped regardless of how free it feels while turning over cold?
If this engine is set up properly, can it out turn an equivalent displacement Tee Dee on same prop and fuel?

Thanks for any pointers, wisdom, advice, or supplemental information -

Last edited by H5606; 06-22-2021 at 03:05 AM. Reason: correction; additions
Old 06-22-2021, 05:38 PM
  #49  
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The answers are personal opinion and YMMV. Others may differ and chime in with better advice.
1. You can remove the muffler and starter spring, but a new AME will be difficult to start without the spring. There should be a significant pinch near TDC -- this is normal and desired. DON'T sit around flipping it through cold and DON'T use a starter on a cold engine. You can omit the muffler while going through initial break-in. These engines take longer than you would expect to come in and once started, needle it up to speed. You want it to warm up quickly and not to run rich -- the piston/cylinder is dependent on heat to fit well. You can oil the cylinder with a light oil and let it sit for some to allow the walls to absorb the lubricant. Occasional heating will improve penetration. One of the best ways to initially get your engine to start is to heat the cylinder with a heat gun -- I use a monokote gun. Without heat, the TDC pinch may prove too much for the engine to overcome before reaching running temp. Keep in mind that the pinch is by design and will lessen over time as the engine breaks in.
2. The venturi on the earlier engines was glued in. It will come out with extremely high heat, but don't try to remove it since you'll have to find another adhesive to use or drill and tap for screws. The AME was designed to be a "breather" and run with at least muffler pressure and, preferably, bladder. Necking it down would defeat the purpose of this configuration.
3. See (2) above.
4. Early NORVELs used a different style plug than the later production models. See the sticky at the top of the forum on Norvels for advice on plugs. A COX plug is not necessary.
5. The hole in APC props will many times be drilled off center. You will notice a recess in the back of the prop hub -- this is molded in and is actually to be used for centering the prop. You may be able to find adapter rings on line. What you are looking for is a washer that will fit snugly in the hub recess and with a hole that also fits snugly to the prop screw. The thickness should allow the prop to be tightened down with out interfering -- it's sole purpose is to hold the prop centered until the prop washer is pulled up tight. A visit to the APC website will provide an explanation of the recess and why it is molded in and how props should be centered. Technically, it comes down to long glass fibers being used in the prop molding process.
6. Don't lap the crank. If the engine starts, comes up to speed and running temperature and maintains RPM after being broken in, you're good. Some NORVELs did have a tight crank/bearing fit and would tighten up while running causing the engine to sag. Feeling the crankcase for high heat around the nose or gunning with an IR thermometer helps diagnose this problem. If that is the case, lapping slightly will help, but don't lap an engine without running first and without getting some time on the case.
7. One of the biggest mistakes I've seen with NORVELs is overpropping. These engines were built to turn up and do not run well with the larger 1/2A props. I like thin, narrow bladed APCs. The downside with APC props is weight, but smaller diameter props will eliminate some of this. While MA props are less expensive and more resilient, they do have big paddle blades that tend to load up the NORVEL. The AME versions should wind up more that a Tee Dee, but not with the same diameter prop.

As I mentioned, the opinions are personal. Read the NORVEL sticky -- there is a lot of excellent information there.
Old 06-23-2021, 03:49 AM
  #50  
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Thank you for this informative explanation and time answering all those questions in my post!

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