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Td .051 powered speedster

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Td .051 powered speedster

Old 11-28-2020, 09:32 AM
  #51  
combatpigg
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Thanks for all the vital statistics..! This is an OK engine but not a great one. I tore it apart to check the crank fit, P/L surfaces, reset the rod and shave a little bit off the piston. It all looks good, but not the magical combo of parts that would give 24,000+ in the hand with a 4.2 x 4 on 25% nitro.
In the past the way I always kept an outstanding TD .049 running was to have lots of good parts to mix and match.
The thing for me to do know is get the phone app for model speed. It looks like Waveoscope is no longer offered.
Anyway, get this plane clocked and clock the slimmer fiberglass model just to see what the difference is using identical power.
Then.....cannibalize these 2 models for the wings, tail surfaces and build much smaller fuselage models like your NANO models.
The wings I've built are easily clipped.
BTW..the carbon cloth tail parts turned out nice but they are too heavy for a 1/2A project. The kevlar hinge that was imbedded in the CF sandwich turned out good and the parts are only .030" thick. Tail surfaces made from this



material would make sense for a .40 sized project.

Last edited by combatpigg; 11-28-2020 at 09:43 AM.
Old 11-29-2020, 04:30 AM
  #52  
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Chuck the plane looks kewl no doubt.
I have hoarded the WAVEoScope software moving it over to each new computer.
Thankfully the software works with Windows 10!

I opened to full screen on a 28" 4k monitor to get on the data lines results below:
Note green line is covering up last data line up top.









Last edited by Pond Skipper; 11-29-2020 at 04:33 AM.
Old 11-29-2020, 09:53 PM
  #53  
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Used one of my Spectrum Analyzers:
415 hz - thru - 441.43hz best

Per TD .051 / APC 4.2 x 4








Old 12-01-2020, 01:45 PM
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How to extract max power [without a pipe]..?
What are we trying to do...?
Deadlift the model's weight in a vertical drag race / 3D Hoverfest...?
or
Go as fast as possible...?
Free up as much internal friction inside the engine without making it too loose.
Improve the engine's ability to pump more air at the highest rpm the parts can handle before self destruction. . Open Exhaust 049 engines like the Cyclon Combat Special can be copied since they are very close to ideal.
A "stuffer back plate" for a TD would be an engineering feat. A bigger hole in the crank might help. Figure that Mr Cox tried everything already, but he wanted to mass produce an engine that didn't need to run on a bladder.
Work propeller design in any direction that produces more speed.,...if your "magic prop" makes the plane go faster you are now extracting more power from the engine.


BTW...I need someone to make me a TD back plate mount.!

Last edited by combatpigg; 12-01-2020 at 01:56 PM.
Old 12-01-2020, 08:37 PM
  #55  
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that is an interesting little a/c
Old 12-01-2020, 09:11 PM
  #56  
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For me fast in stock form / add ons.
I have thoughts on 3D use at some point the thing is no bearings so prepare to wear out a crankcase.

How to tap into the power without wasting it on unsuitable planes and props is the start a primary must do.
Fuel Pressure no doubt for max (I have yet to use it with the Nano X along with APC Carbon Props wiggle room for potential 160 PS)
Yes can butter up the inside for best flow - my goals are with stock engine / add ons without timing / porting mods

What I have seen thus far:
Open exhaust
- 6.1oz plane / 30.49k open exhaust with throttle sleeve / can be greatly improved as I just used a modified to 4.1x4.1N

Muffler with pressure tap
Stock Cox TD .050 RC / 4.22 x 5.5 modified APC Prop 9oz RTF / 28" / 138 mph pitch speed reached


Tuned Pipes
- I have hit 33.1k / 141 mph PS reached the HQ Prop carbon blend blade tips started to flutter due to no case bearings as
I started to line up speed passes / thrust loss heavy slip speed loss when it happens.
To compare .05 car engine with bearings the tips only fluttered twice from dive to level off pass into the wind - Best pass 146 mph PS down wind.
I only use APC modified props now no issues. Car engine on N III hit 163 PS no flutter lower weight plane at 9 oz vs 11oz Dart

TD .051 -149.7 mph pitch speed 4.3 x 5.5N / 8.2oz RTF / 24" span thats it so far on my end, Covid park restrictions going on will fly in the spring.
TD .020 and .051 and .05 Picco will be the spring time goals. Will be doing a TD .15 build project next also to test some other .15's
.010 to .15 cox project list will be done, leaving me to do a .20 to .30 four stroke acro plane project is the to do list as time allows.


The best backplate is Kamtechnik - designed robust for a solid mounted singing engine / better than the Old timers version for low weight FF
It was Bob Mattes TD .020 backplate mounted to a thick steel plate sold me on the advantage over flexible nylon beams.
The mount seals well the path was quite clear during design discussions, keeping the radial mount dia minimum functional allowed
the extra beefy effort and dia. was minimum for narrow firewalls / Idea was upgrade a .010 plane with a .020.
Even the mighty TD .15 could replace a .09 with it's radial mount. Ton of ideas have been passed on to Greg what's next.
- more adapters for other engines, RC, mufflers, pipes for .01 thru .051 folks will snap it up for oil spray and throttle control.
Ability to add pressure taps will keep them singing till the last drop of fuel.

Deadlift for me would be a modified APC 6x4 to NN thrust with speed

Old 12-02-2020, 08:35 AM
  #57  
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I wore out a new AP .061 crank case in 5 minutes by running the engine pointing straight up.
Joe Klaus [Kustom Kraftsmanship] used to sell a kit to raise the liner of a 049. The kit had a fairly thick[.020"?] brass shim "cup" that sat between the liner and the case. He also included a pair of very thin shims to fine tune this tweak. I never tried it because I didn't have any way to replace the lost compression that raising the liner would cause. I called him to ask how / what / why this kit was offered and he wasn't very helpful....I hear a guy named Darren Albert [a C/L Combat flying Texan] bought the KK inventory maybe 20 years ago.
Old 12-02-2020, 10:21 AM
  #58  
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For awhile Cox International was selling the shims for the liner.
I have used .049 head shims for liner shims with the TD .020
Possible .09 or .074 head shims will work with the .049

Yes KK had a cup to hold the shims from migration / slipping deformation during tightening.
Allows more influx timing 1 shim on the glow plug gets some compression back or use
the Kamtechnik adapter higher compression and shave down the bottom of the plug adapter if need be.
So much can be done to a stock engine to squeak out a bit of rpm here there per process.

Mattes used shims and apparently the Nelson insert plug adapter was tweaked to suit ideal compression per engine.
Result massive power to the APC 4.2x2

I downloaded his old vid off his site and posted on Youtube to save it for folks to marvel over the power vs stock setup.


This is Bob Mattes engine with a custom rework on this TD .020 APC 4.2 x 2 shown tuning a customers engine.
Peak 26,001 rpm 9.52 oz thrust / .078hp / 58w /49 mph pitch speed / Nelson Plug. Bob uses 40% nitro and 25% castor oil 35% alcohol.
Pistons have ranged from .006 below the sealing surface to nearly .004 above the sealing surface. Port timing varies from 114 deg. to 130 deg.
To compensate shims are added below the cylinder to obtain better port timing and between the head sealing surface. Proper compression ratio
is key he uses custom milled head adapters for the small flat coil insert plug from Nelson no longer made now. Bob is the king for his knowledge and
ability to make the TD .020 perform far better than stock.

What I learned from Bob I bought one of his beasts / results:



Testing G-Mark carb add on with Nelson plug. TD .020
Quick run it is very loud with this kind of rpm open exhaust. I did a couple of quick runs with it the carb body came loose
Shown 29,392 rpm / 125 mph pitch speed / 6.4oz thrust can spin the 3.6x4.5N at 30,604 rpm /130.4 mph /7oz thrust!
Bob Mattes FF reworked TD .020 with a G-Mark carb and Kamtechnik backplate / Valentine .020 bullet spinner.



Old 12-02-2020, 06:34 PM
  #59  
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I never knew 020s were worth playing with for speed.
BipeFlyer was the guy I first saw who used 020s for his RC projects. He built quite a few that performed very well.
Old 12-03-2020, 08:42 AM
  #60  
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Also Hollywood Bill flew a Mattes modified in a 20" span GLH


The number to beat is from the Nano IV:
TD .020 / 3.37 x 4.5 Prop best peak hit 28,585 rpm / 122 mph pitch speed.
Static in the hand at launch 23,192 rpm / 99 mph pitch speed
4.2oz RTF / 19.5" Span / 43" Sq. In.


Last edited by Pond Skipper; 12-03-2020 at 08:54 AM.
Old 12-03-2020, 02:03 PM
  #61  
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He has a real screamer..!
No flying today with people working in the field. I have no idea what they are doing.
The slimmer version of the first plane in this thread is ready to try. It weighs 10 ozs, so it is 1 oz lighter than the first plane
The original plane [that I crashed the other day] is under going a "down sizing" Less span and less fuselage to lug around

Thinnest of the thin

4.2 x 4 prop looks kind of big?

Compare

clipped wing and will remodel the fuselage
Old 12-03-2020, 08:13 PM
  #62  
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Ah for sure leaner 1 oz less mass to lug around should show it in the air.
What is the span and squares?
Old 12-03-2020, 08:17 PM
  #63  
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Looking at a diet for this one had me marking some lines.


Old 12-03-2020, 08:34 PM
  #64  
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I like your designs Chuck and really don't want to see you change them for faster speeds.
To go fast we are all forced to hone down the meat there is no faster way to gain ground.
Also note dragging chains on the rear trailing edge tips of the wings being rounded.

I tested this today with a Profi 2.5cc pipe.
Stock with no boost rated at .33hp staged on the pipe to simulate boosted power shows
what gains can be had with a pipe.




Dec 3, 2020

AP Yellow Jacket .15 / Profi 2.5cc Tuned Pipe
APC 6x3 to stage on the pipe / 25,113 - 26,082 rpm / 74 mph prop pitch speed
Thrust 41oz - 2.54lb / .433hp - .496hp - 370w no NV tweak new engine
5.25 x 6 est. unloaded 25.5k / 145 mph pitch speed
70F / 25% nitro 20% castor / MRP 9.75" - 160
Responds to pipes as well as the AP 09

Engine with muffler:
6.25x3.25NN combat / 20,994 rpm / .330 hp
Peak 21,075 rpm / 65 mph pitch speed / 1.94 lbs. thrust

Per prop calc.
+.103hp
that's + 76.83 to 126.82w boost with the staged pipe!
and 74 mph prop pitch speed

Last edited by Pond Skipper; 12-03-2020 at 09:45 PM.
Old 12-04-2020, 07:45 AM
  #65  
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Those AP engines.09 ..15 .I was always tempted to try but never did.
The AP 061s were a good value for RC Combat We just wanted cheap, easy to start and just enough power but not too much.
I plan on chopping up both of the speed planes that are featured in this thread just to see what is worth what as far as design considerations are concerned. Having identical power during design testing would be easier with electric motors..but .
Plane #1 is under going major surgery right now.
A smallish speed design I did in the early 2000s was for the 049 Product Engines that Cox sold for $4 each . I bought 10 of those engines. 2 were real strong right out of the bag. After mixing and matching parts I was able to get 2 more exceptional Screamers and the rest were decent.
Anyway the plane I called The Annihilator since it was going to be the fastest .049 design in the history of MANKIND. It used the very fragile HS 55 servos and the hit and miss GWS RX. At this time 4.2 x 4 props were kind of a new break through for someone who only had played with 5 x 3s for speed.

Last edited by combatpigg; 12-04-2020 at 07:51 AM.
Old 12-04-2020, 08:38 AM
  #66  
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THE ANNIHILATOR...!!!!
It featured a stabilator that worked OK but I don;t remember exactly how well / or smooth it was..
The plane was tried with just 1 aileron and that did not work at all.

Last edited by combatpigg; 12-04-2020 at 08:42 AM.
Old 12-04-2020, 06:29 PM
  #67  
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Ahhh good name for a beasty speedy! Could redesign one called the Vindicator!
The APC 4.2x4 upgraded due to lower weight RC gear to 4.2x4.6
Old 12-04-2020, 07:19 PM
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here is the first speedster that was clocked at 91 MPH, then crashed, then down sized. It's starting to look more like The ANNIHILATOR.
It was originally the same size as the yellow plane[ that hasn't flown yet]
The butchery also lost 2 ozs and now the plane weighs 9 ozs.
We want the power to be the same as it was for the 91 MPH clocking in order to see what these airframe mods were worth. 22700 is the ground rpm to match.
I will run it without the cowl, and with a cowl to see what that is worth with this level of power / prop and speed range.
Figure that at 50 mph a cowl doesn't make any difference but at 100 mph with a low diameter prop it is worth 2 MPH..?

BTW...I took a stock backplate and crammed an adapter in to it for a DIY engine mount. Some red Locktite and a single @ screw hold it together / keep it from flying apart.

Chopped, channeled, clipped and sectioned

Last edited by combatpigg; 12-04-2020 at 07:25 PM.
Old 12-04-2020, 09:35 PM
  #69  
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Woot woot your on the path Chuck so happy to see you back after it / the need for speed!!!!

We have to all personally walk the path to stay sure footed with design changes that yield speed progress.
2oz loss is awesome! 9oz much better!
What is the weight of the Yellow bird?
Old 12-04-2020, 11:06 PM
  #70  
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The yellow plane is 10 ozs, so it was a 1 oz improvement vs the 1st plane. The yellow wing is tissue and dope [The first plane has tinted cellophane] and the yellow plane's fuselage is fiberglass instead of balsa. The yellow dope is just a very thin "wash" to give a little bit of fuel proofing and color.
I will commit to building a nice looking plane [with Klasskote / monokote] after the dust settles and a fast design can be finalized.
Good news...I drove to a RC field that is about 15 minutes north of where I live today. Last time I visited it, it was shut down..they were evicted.
Today,I found to my surprise the club has reopened this field and so I'll join this club....Arlington Eagles field.
Old 12-05-2020, 04:39 AM
  #71  
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Wow that is very good news Chuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-Ra...sAAOSwUGxdKPGE
Back in stock .049 radial mounts on ebay.
Old 12-06-2020, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Pond Skipper View Post
Wow that is very good news Chuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-Ra...sAAOSwUGxdKPGE
Back in stock .049 radial mounts on ebay.
Thanks..Greg baked a fresh batch,,! I'm glad to see his products are in demand. Maybe he can pick up Doug Galbreath's clientelle..?
I was once told by a sales rep at one of the major model plane suppliers what the daily demand was worldwide for engine mounts, fuel tanks, props and it was unbelievable.

I tried flying the yellow / fiberglass Speedster yesterday but kept meeting 1 stumbling block after another
The CG..even though I used a calculator I could not believe the CG was as far back as the calculator said. The calculator was right, so I removed the cowl and place some plumber's solder at the tail.
Needle valve wander / self tightening. I am sure I replaced the black plastic seal too. *** does anything self tighten [shut itself off]? Hunk of fuel tubing for temp fix
Model veers left on takeoff and needs full right stick to keep from crashing. Wing looks very straight and so does the rudder alignment. Accidental left thrust was built in, used 2 glow plug washers to at least provide right thrust. It was flyable after doing this.
The engine kept unscrewing from the mounting. After returning home I cleaned the engine parts and used Blue Locktite on the threads
Final straw that sent me home with no video is I am still flying right next to a busy highway and the only way to do downwind passes would have been to fly over the road. This road really isn't supposed to be a busy highway but that is what massive growth in this area has turned it into.
The Blue Winged.Speedster with the clipped wing and shortened / narrowed fuselage is ready to try also.
Old 12-06-2020, 11:15 AM
  #73  
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Yes I have already tested and gave the thumbs up for the Nelson plug adapters.

The rpm is up some for a bit more punch with older engines.
Kamtechnik Nelson Plug adapter test / Piped 1996 Killer Bee .049 APC 4.6x3 prop / static 22,610 rpm / 10.4oz thrust / 64 mph PS .111hp - 82w
Same setup had the Galbreath Nelson Plug adapter static less by around 400 rpm as I recall.

Note the turbo plug adapter version was also set up to run better:

Kamtectnik standard turbo plug adapter
4 x 4.5 Static Peak 26,324 rpm / 112 mph pitch speed
.151hp
+238 rpm

VS

Galbreath Nelson Head Adapter:
4 x 4.5 Static Peak 26,086 rpm / 111 mph pitch speed
.147hp



Yea tight spot would require you to walk out into the field far enough. Need good low in your face passes in front of cam to get
solid doppler lines on the waveOscope. Green hornet starter 3 cell lipo portable power in your jacket pocket center of
the field. Allows you to lock up the truck. Must try the radial mounts top notch and does not unscrew. I mount on
some wood and rotate tight before setting it up on the firewall.
I find once the bugs procedures are in check the field flying becomes routine and successful vid to take home.
Welp bummer on Sat!!

Last edited by Pond Skipper; 12-06-2020 at 11:33 AM.
Old 12-06-2020, 12:19 PM
  #74  
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This should hit 160 mph pitch speed 24" span 66sq." thrust will exceed weight. Will fly like the Lil Speedy 66sq" relentless speed any direction.
Landing fast into the wind will be the only way to slide it in stress free / set for best float dry weight CG. Cord is not correct actual 4" center cord x 1.5" tips x 12" L per panel.


Last edited by Pond Skipper; 12-06-2020 at 12:48 PM.
Old 12-06-2020, 12:23 PM
  #75  
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This hit 149.7 mph pitch speed / 25" span 75sq"


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