famousdave

My Feedback: (61)

OK, I am likely to hit a nerve here, but I have a serious question. Why does anyone bother with Electric Park flyers ??? Maybe I am missing something, but I have tried several of these airplanes. Each and every time they had the same result - no fun assembling, horrible in flight, and nearly as costly as any small gas plane.. I just dont get it.

Yet Global and others are selling these things to the point that they are hard to keep in stock. Again, I don't get it.


So all you e-flyers out there - maybe you can tell me what I am missing.

A little background on me - I have been flying most of my life, I started when I was 11 and have been on and off for 30 some years. I have built most of my planes, but recently moved over to large scale ARFs as they are finally at least close to what I can build myself. I have flown scale, fun flies, pattern and 3D, doing quite well in each. The smallest plane in my current hangar is a H9 P-51 that I modified with robart retracts and flaps. My largest is a 113" Rearwin Speedster with a DA 80 up front. To put it bluntly, I know how to fly.

I got this hair-brained idea last year that I thought it would be cool to take up e-flight (after all I am an addict) so I could pack a plane in my car and take it out during lunch at work, at the park, etc. Well so far I have spent enough on this crap that I could have bought a real nice 1/4 scale bird and I still have yet to fly anything in a park. Either I am buying the wrong planes, or this stuff is just junk. Hopefully someone out there can recommend something !!


Lets start with my first electric. I bought a Hobby Zone firebird XL. I assembled it and trimmed it. First flight, took off but was basically uncontrollable. Adjusted the trim, and finally got it to fly OK, but what a pathetic little thing. Granted this is a kids toy, but it still was not really a good flyer. Ended up pounding into the ground on its 3rd flight. The wing broke, the fuse was crushed. Basically, I was out $99 Strike One

Next was the GWS Zero. Looked pretty nice, went together OK, but some of the parts were not too well built. Assembled exactly according to manual - no mods. First flight took off, stalled at end of runway and went in nose first at high speed, crushing front end and destroying prop and motor. I was out $88. Strike Two.


I thought this time I would try a foam flyer. Really - how much trouble could you get into with styrofoam. I picked up a Global F-22 Jet. Looked good on the box, but when I opened up the kit what I got was a styrofoam beer cooler for $69. I put it together, came in under weight if you can believe that (10 grams). Followed the manual to the letter. Half the parts fit like crap and I was disappointed with the overall fit and finish, but alas I got it together. A quick dusting with the airbrush to give it some camo and I was ready to fly... again. This time I thought I was in, this was going to be the charmer.

So I went to the field, re-checked the balance, tested it, and was ready to launch. I have hand launched many a model, so no worries I was ready. Full power, a gentle toss .... and the P.O.S. flew straight down into the concrete runway. There was absolutely no power out of that cheap 370 gearbox motor and I have a very good 9.6V battery installed. I tried again. This time, same thing, but the nose broke off. What a complete piece of crap. I just paid $70 for a styrofoam beer cooler that would have flown further had I thrown it.

All totalled - over $240 in throw aways and not even one real flight. My Kangke Cap 120 gasser ARF was less than that (the airframe anyway) and what an amazing plane that is. I have 140 flights on her already and it still flies like new.

I find E planes totally unrewarding, anything BUT fun to assemble, and not relaxing at all, but I am still very interested in having something I can just pack with me and fly. I am running out of patience however. Funny thing - I was more adrenaline-rushed over that stupid F-22 than I was when first-flighted my buddies Aeroworks Edge when it was new.

I am either picking the wrong planes, or this part of the hobby is just not for me. I am not mad - I just don't believe that its all my fault. I have flown many planes that should not have stayed in the air over the years, so I am pretty convinced that most of this cheapo park flyer stuff is just pathetic junk and a total waste of money.

So what am I doing wrong?? Do I have little big plane syndrome??

I am still willing to try another, but I want something with Ailerons, something that does more than just flies in circles and something that looks cool (i.e. no sticks, no plastic or paper plate wings,etc..) Am I asking too much here????

DP

Gollywock

Maybe someone over in the electric forum could give you an answer- Jim

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Well, I fly a lot of E-flight, and I have to say you did not pick the three best examples to start out on. The Firebird IS just a beginners toy.

I have been flying R/C since 1968 and have done it all: giant scale, Formula 1 for one season, ducted fan, and even some turbine. I now fly Electric almost exclusively.

Don't be deceived by advertising. Some of the mass market stuff is just marginal

Research a desired E model on here, or on www.ezonemag.com If you had done that, you would have found out that the CG on that GWS zero was wrong in the instructions.

I have seen some great flying Wattage F-22s, but they all had a money injection in the form of 150 bucks worth of brushelss motor and controller.

If you want a delightful scale park flyer putt putt, the GWS Tiger Moth is one of their very best designs. Can also be flown indoors, if you ever want to try that.

A great flying, almost stock model of mine is my Robbe Concorde. All I did was convert separate ailerons and elevator into elevons. It scoots and is highly aerobatic and EASY to launch on 2 box stock Speed 400 6v motors and a 1400-2000 mah 8 cell pack. It comes with two motors, two props and the wiring harness and can be found for $100-120.

My model is featured in a DEAF 2003 video found here:

[link]http://rcgroups.com/links/index.php?t=video&cat=266&id=4302[/link]

I think you can tell it has performance to spare. Not a parkflyer, though, I admit.

Dymondrc.com has it in stock, I think.

Here is a picture of mine zipping by low and close:

In any case, what do you want a parkflyer to do? do you want scale, aerobatics, some of both, or?

Dukester

My Feedback: (31)

My two cents here also. I have to agree with Thomas B, even though I have no doubt as to your RC experience, the three planes you listed are not ideal first planes for E flight. The firebird is a toy, the Zero is recognized as a handful even if properly CG'd, and the F-22 gets mixed reviews at best.

I haven't been flying as long as you guys, but I can tell you why I keep both nitro and E-power in my squadron.

For the guys here, nitro is a no brainer and needs no explanation.

On the E side, here are the primary advantages as I see them:
1. I can fly on the playground at my daughter's elementary school in the middle of my neighborhood and no one has a word to say. If I tried this with my glow engines I doubt the response would be the same.
2. Lithium polymer batteries. Hard to find a 1/2A size glow with a 60 minute continuous flight time at 3/4 throttle.
3. Refueling E style. Pop the hatch, unplug, plug, close hatch and back up you go.
4. No lean, no rich, no clunks, etc.

On the down side:
1. Expense! I am convinced that no one ever saved money going to E-flight. Even without going brushless, you are going to spend twice as much money as you would on a comparable size glow setup.
2. Quality of many E-flight ARF and foam kits are deplorable. Only a few really decent manufacturers out there. I would suggest [link=http://www.mountainmodels.com]mountain models[/link]. I have a GWS Tiger Moth and find it to be a fun and relaxing flyer, but you aren't going to burn any holes in the sky. A large number of people have found the mountain models Dandy to be a good flyer and the Tantrum to be good for 3d. These are kits, but laser cut and easy to assemble. I like to scratch build and would highly recommend any of Peter Rake's plans for speed 400 size motors. I just finished his sp400 size Sopwith Pup and find it to be a capable slow flyer.
3. Weight is the rule in E or glow, but in E its twice as important as power to weight for the motors are lower unless you lay out high dollars for high end equipment. Detailing that my Norvel 074 will gladly haul around would ground my E planes.

It's basically a personal choice in what you prefer. If you want 3d, try a Tantrum from MM. If you like scale(ish) slowflyers, try the GWS Tiger Moth. If you like slow flight but don't care about looks as much, try any of the stick type planes. Also, spend some time on the RCGroups E forums. If you are thinking about it, there are likely 10 guys who have tried it before so just ask em.

Hope this helps. Most of the guys I know who try it end up with at least one or two little beasties to play around with between bouts with their glow babies.

Duke

Lynn S

I started out with a Super Star EP last spring and learned to hate the thing. I sold it for $80 after spending $60 for a NiMH battery. I thought it would be neat to just hit the on switch(throttle) and fly. It would have been a nice plane with a .25 engine on it.

loading

I fly both electric and glow. One of my favorites at the moment is a GWS Mustang that I put a Norvel 061 on. Warbirds like speed and the stock e-power just didn't have it. I was shocked at how much better it flew on glow. But I also have a GWS Formosa. The geared e-power system gives it lots of static thrust. I wouldn't call it a 3D plane, but its nice arobatic plane that doesn't need a lot of speed. The e-power system fits it perfectly. I think of it more as, What do I want the plane to do. hmmm, I guess I really don't have a point, just that I like it all and I wouldn't give up my electric any more than I would give up my glow.

Bipe Flyer

Don't know, don't care.
What I want to know is why people try to convince me to fly electrics.

DICKEYBIRD

Hi DP,

I built a couple of Wattage small electrics for a friend who just HAD to have them. Both turned out to be truly crappy but I "inherited" a neat little GWS motor/geardrive unit and speed controller. I built a Dave Robelen design from plans called the "GWS Sport." Back in the summer on a calm afternoon I could walk 3 houses down to a little baseball diamond with my daughter and she learned to fly with it. She thinks it's cute and really likes it because it's so quiet. Definitely an advantage for electric because the noise from my 1/2A engines wouldn't be welcome in the neighborhood.

Now if really want want some "spirited" discussion on this issue, post your question over on the EZone at http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.php?topic=air-elec Talk about some opinionated dudes! Man they don't EVEN want to have anything to do with us "slimers!" I spend some time there because they do have some very gifted designers and modelers over there. I just keep quiet about my favored power source and all goes well.

If you're really interested in using your left over motors and equip., look around in their Park Flyers forum and you can find a successful ARF kit that isn't foam that will fly well.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

Yeah I had some trouble with Wattage a couple of them, but had good luck with GWS the pico stick, but if you want something that will do 3-D you can find it but you probably wont be able to fly it in a park or schoolyard anyway, I had a Wattage Crazy Max, that was more than I was ready for so its hanging from the ceiling but its claimed to do the 3-D manuvers, most park flyers just float along and are for beginners and then they go to glow if they like the hobby , I like em both , just need more practice with the glow,...Rog

Dbird, I have a couple of motor and gears for GWS if ya need em and thats a nice little plane ya made for the girlie....Rog

famousdave

My Feedback: (61)

Thanks for all the replies guys!

Dickeybird - very nice job on the build up!

Now THAT is something that looks like it flies. Can't tell if it has ailerons though.. I have taken a look at some of the suggested models (tigermoth, etc) and they all seemed like styrofoam plate construction to me. Although I have heard that they fly very well. I guess I am not willing to spend $150 on a toy motor ever. That just won't happen in this lifetime. When I pluck down $500 for a DA50 at least I get something for the $$ and it will last a lifetime. Motors wear out way too easily for me. So, on that note.... I think I am going to put the E-flight idea in the hangar for now. Since the primary place I would be flying my "small fry" is going to be at a large industrial park where the nearest house is 2 miles away , I think I want to go 1/2 a. I think that will be the REAL solution to flying small and being able to pack my plane with me. Some times I get tunnel vision on an idea and don't see the solution that was right in front of me the whole time....

1/2 A - WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT !!!!


I flew many 1/2a planes when I was a kid - goldberg Jr falcon, house of balsa mustang, etc... they were easy to put together, easy to fly and very cheap. Now that makes sense!!

SOoooo on that note.. what do y'all recommend. I am interested mostly in easy flight with some basic aerobatics. I don't want to do 3D 1/2a as it will never be as thrilling as my 80" CAP 232, but on the other hand I want aileron control and the ability to do some aerobatics albeit at a relaxing pace. Hand launch would be ideal, as would ability to fly in a light breeze (i.e. 5mph ish) I don't want anything too fast either, so I am thinking high wing, symmetrical airfoil, some dihedral and ailerons... nothing too big either...

Also - what about engines? I guess if I am doing this I will want full throttle control - thinking Norvel here, but does Cox have r/c engines still?

It can be a kit or an arf... I just want something that flies darn it!!

Any ideas???

Thanks ! DP

matchlessaero

Why?

Last night I was bored----- So I put the li-poly's on the charger and flew some 3D aerobatics under a streetlight in the parking lot across the street from my neighborhood.

You will never pull the glow plugs from my hands, but I have found that electric really does the things people claim as long as you stay away from the mass-marketed foam crap.

I helped several people at my local club with expensive foamies (gws p51, f86, etc) and all had poor design work, poor structural integrity and extremely high wing loadings. And after they were crashed too many times, we did not even have the 'moneycote bag' to take them home in.

Electrics are just like half-a's. They don't tolerate poor building, high wing loadings, or poor designs very well.

The little Robelen design Dickeybird built is a sweet little plane. A real cruiser.

Attached below is the little design I did for indoor and outdoor flying. It looks overly simple, but it loops easily from level flight, cruises for 25 mins or more at half throttle, and is slow enough to fly indoors or at night....

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Each type of model has it's own undeniable attraction. I for one, find some of the diehard narrow minded iconoclasts (no one in here, I promise...) to be more than tedious. I get tired of the jet guys acting like you don't exisit unless you have a turbine, I get tired of the E powered acolytes calling everything else slimers, I get tired of the pylon racing guys acting like speed is everything and I get tired of the 3D guys judging all by how well they hover...

Some modelers want you to think that thier chosen medium is the one and only true one, and if you do any other type of model, you are less than the dust beneath their tailskid... Bullpoop!

I like it all. Every branch of our hobby has it's own attraction, and fun , learning and satisfaction can be had from all aspects of the hobby.

Some people can't make 1/2A motors run, and bad mouth them. Some can't get electric to work for them, and badmouth them. and so forth

To sum it all up, I deeply respect all forms of modeling, and will return at least as much respect as is given..

Now, let me take the last poster to task. Not all foamies, even the mass marketed ones, are crap. Some are, but many, many are not. Some of them are pretty darn amazing. Try the Hobby Lobby Rare Bear or Strega, or the FanTastic Models AT-6 or Gee Bee R-1. The GWS Tiger Moth is a delight to fly, as is their new BN Islander. The Hobby Lobby Flying Styro Spitfire is as detailed as a plastic model and owns the sky in the air, swinging a scale sized 4 bladed prop as it speeds around.

Just to stir the pot, here is a cool electric FOAM model of mine that flys great, and would be a killer model to convert to 1/2A or A Norvell power, or even Cox, maybe...

My Multiplex Sonic Liner:

matchlessaero

Thomas B, you are absolutely right. I have seen the wonderful little Rarebear and Strega fly as well as the Tigermoth and many others that are fantastic foamie flyers. Many of the Hobby Lobby and GWS planes are wonderful flyers.

Personally, I have been playing as of late with e-powered planes that are built from Depron foam and Carbon rods and I am having a blast.

Unfortunately, I have also seen too many manufacturer's releases that were the product of a marketing manager's desire to satiate a 'newbie's' interest in flying the immortal P51 or 'jet looking thing' rather than providing them with a good flying, well designed model.

There are good and bad planes out there. Just don't want the original poster to give up E-power because of a few bad eggs........

hotdogx

DP,

I say fly glow and electric! They are both a blast and each has advantages and disadvantages. They complement each other quite well. As in 1/2A, there are a lot of good designs out there for electric, but you have to do a bit of research. Check out The Ezone for lots of reviews. Radical RC, Edge RC, Superfly RC, and Edogfight are a few places that have some good ships. If you are into small planes, check out RC Microflight magazine on the web.

I got my start in RC on 1/2A models and still fly 'em. I've designed quite a few over the years and had a lot of fun for not much money. The last 3 years I've had a lot of fun designing schoolyard aerobatic electric planes for the GWS IPS-A and EPD-50 motors. With the new Li-Po batteries, the flight durations are fantastic! Here are pics of a couple of my recent designs, the full-house "Rodent" and the 3 Channel "Gopher".

DICKEYBIRD

Hey Al, welcome back! NASA let you out for the holidays or d'ja just get caught up? Good to see you kickin' around!

Dunno what to think about a guy that keeps his shop FLOOR so clean & painted! 2 really neat looking aireoplanes by the way.

hotdogx

DB,

Thanks! Even though the 3 CH Gopher in the picture is electric, it is actually a slight redesign of a 1975 rudder only plane I made for the Cox Tee Dee .010 and Ace Pulse Commander R/O radio (also called Gopher). I made a few mods (changed the airfoil, took out the wing incidence, added an elevator, increased the movable rudder area, reduced the downthrust) to convert it to a 3 CH electric. It would fly great as a 3 CH with the Tee Dee .010 in the nose.

Yes, NASA has kept me very busy since February this year. I've been primarily working on the new Orbital Space Plane program, intended to carry 4 ISS crew to and from ISS and also serve as a rescue vehicle. However, we are currently on hold pending the new space policy/vision that President Bush is supposed to announce soon.

I'm currently pondering a 1/2A plane for the Dickeybird engine I made last spring. I have plans for a 1974 vintage Don Dewey design called the "Centerfire". It's a low-wing taildragger, sort of like a little Orion (for you guys who were around RC in the early 60's!), looks really cute. But, I might just scale down my Terrier to 1/2A size and build that. That's the trouble with 1/2A, just way too many neat planes to build and too little time!

Hope you can make the Tullahoma SMALL fly-in this year. I also missed it last September because it ended up being on the same weekend I test flew my homebuilt plane. Too many hobbies I guess, or so my wife says!

fox35

My Feedback: (9)

I have a Sig Rascal with a geared 400 on it. It was gonna be my 'park flyer' in a middle school soccer field 5 minutes from home.

I flew it a few times, flew pretty well, but the sound of the moter and gears was annoying to me.

Now I find that my 1/6 Sig Cub with a Saito .30 is just as quiet , far more rewarding and can be flown easily in a football field.

I like the sound of internal combustion. Foam makes great beer coolers, but unsatisfying looking airplanes.

I occasionally get the urge to shell out $300 for brushless moter, Li Po's etc. I guess the advertizing gets to me. Thanks for the reminder not to!

Bipe Flyer

There's nothing wrong with foam as long as it's sheeted with balsa.

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Foam sheeted with balsa is good....foam is good.....molded foam is good....balsa is good....carbon rod and ripstop nylon is good,.... Microfilm is good ....fiberglass is good...vacuformed plastic is good.....remember...it is ALL good...

I will admit that I don't care much for corrugated plastic sheet, but if it flies, it is not all bad.....

LS171Malibu

My Feedback: (16)

I think the Zagi w/speed 400 is a no brainer for an entry level electric model. Fun to fly also.

Bipe Flyer

I hated my Zagi because it was an underpowered with a sub 4 minute run time. I sold it to a guy who used it for slope soaring without a motor where it performed very nicely.

skypupmut

I own a gws zero
first flight was interresting, cg in book is not good at all
I use a 7 cells 600 ma nicad pack
takes off from grass easy loops rolls flys inverted and most beautifull stallturns
will go to brussless and lipos soon enjoyin it very much
and i also fly stuff fron 20 to 124 inches wing span
4 e power planes and over 40 others gas and glo
love electrics but not all of them
my 2 c

AMB

What a can of worms--My favorite electric slow stick stock,cheap. have 3-- my hacker tl-96
will get the norvel 061 polk hobbies tiger moth paw 06 my vmar cub OS10 diesel (flys at the
electric field) actually quieter than the geared electrics going brushess too many $$

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

I think the key here is to not dismiss an entire area of modelling because of one or two or even three bad experiences with a type of powerplant.

How many times have you been dissed at the model field for flying a Cox engine, or any 1/2A for that matter? I have, many, many times. Many uneducated people think they are hard to start, hard to keep running and generally useless, due to some personal bad experiences, or rumors spread by others that had the bad experiences. We all know better.

Does not E flight deserve the same consideration? There is limitless evidence that E flight is here in a big way and that it works, if you you do it right. Videos all over the web show the performace that is possible, without you having to see it with your own eyes at your own flying filed.

I love both kinds of models.....in fact, make that all kinds of models.

Bipe Flyer

We should all be able to fly whatever we want to. If I fly 1/2A and someone is interested and asks a few questions then great, but I don't need to prove anything to anyone to enjoy myself. If they aren't interested in 1/2A it doesn't bother me. The same should go for electric, if someone decides they don't want to fly electric then they shouldn't have to. It's not up to other flyers to convince them that electric is the way to go.

Each year I invite some of the local electric clubs to our S.M.A.L.L event. They're a great bunch of guys and we all have a great time flying electric, glow and diesel. There are a few electric flyers who tend to preach about how superior e-flight is without having ever flown anything else. "The future is electric." "Those slimers are too noisy." One of these fellows explained to someone else how a speed 400 was equivalent to 1/2A. He then went on to mention that 1/2A was up to a .25! I wonder how many people believe this sort of stuff.

I think that there is more disrespect towards glow by electric flyers than the other way around. There are many electric only events, but how many glow only events have you heard of?

I know the tone of written text can seem a lot heavier than it is intended, but rest assured that I mean what I have written in a lighthearted "just fly what you want to and have fun" sort of way.

I'll probably give electric another try someday. The geared 180 powered SIG Lil' Rascal looks cute, but I'm afraid I'd be tempted to put a TeeDee .020 in it.