update on the new CS 061 RC engine
04-14-2004, 08:47 PM
#1
update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Guys, I forgot what post I had this info in ....
I had a chance to take apart the new CS 061 I bought in Toledo. The piston is (to the best of my knowledge) definitely cast iron, running in a steel sleeve. The machine work looks excellent and the piston fit is also very good. Nice and snappy when you flip it over but not too tight (which for that type of engine take forever to break in)
The engine will have to be run with castor based fuel (not a problem for most of us run castor anyway) and I will break it in on 25% Remember I didnt get any paperwork so I will break it in as any other of my lapped iron/steel engines (short rich runs with manny breaks).
Anyway, more updates when I get to actually run this thing...
AJC
I had a chance to take apart the new CS 061 I bought in Toledo. The piston is (to the best of my knowledge) definitely cast iron, running in a steel sleeve. The machine work looks excellent and the piston fit is also very good. Nice and snappy when you flip it over but not too tight (which for that type of engine take forever to break in)
The engine will have to be run with castor based fuel (not a problem for most of us run castor anyway) and I will break it in on 25% Remember I didnt get any paperwork so I will break it in as any other of my lapped iron/steel engines (short rich runs with manny breaks).
Anyway, more updates when I get to actually run this thing...
AJC
04-14-2004, 10:19 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
AJ,
I ran across this interesting article about breaking in diesel engines that are cast iron running in a steel sleeve.
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/dieselco...ut_diesels.htm
He gives some very interesting info that I hadn't really thought too much about, but it makes sense. I hadn't thought of using a bigger than normal prop to keep the RPM down during break in. At least we don't have to worry about changing compression too!
Greg
I ran across this interesting article about breaking in diesel engines that are cast iron running in a steel sleeve.
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/dieselco...ut_diesels.htm
He gives some very interesting info that I hadn't really thought too much about, but it makes sense. I hadn't thought of using a bigger than normal prop to keep the RPM down during break in. At least we don't have to worry about changing compression too!
Greg
04-15-2004, 05:28 AM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Thanks Andrew, I was sure hoping it would have an ABC or AAC liner. [
] Iron be's heavy and will probably vibrate at high revs. It oughta be durable though! Keep us posted when you get her running!
] Iron be's heavy and will probably vibrate at high revs. It oughta be durable though! Keep us posted when you get her running!
04-15-2004, 05:37 AM
#4
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
should be just fine if they balanced it right. the cox/RJL conquest .15 is also an iron piston and runs just fine up in the mid 20s
and i doubt mr. Brodak would sell a it if it wasn't up to par, he might even be the reason a lapped iron piston was used in the first place.
dave
and i doubt mr. Brodak would sell a it if it wasn't up to par, he might even be the reason a lapped iron piston was used in the first place.
dave
04-15-2004, 06:42 AM
#5
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Yes, and my Rossi (1970's era) .15 rear exhaust turns up into the high 20,000's and it has the same metallurgy 
The lapped iron/steel set up is a very, very long lasting and durable setup IF you break it in correctly and use the proper fuel. As for break in, using a larger prop to limit rpm's doesnt sound right, when breaking in this type of engine you dont want to overheat (overload) it, but run it rich (use the NV to control rpm's) and in short runs (maybe 2 minutes at a time).
One thing, they are much more tollerant than ABC/AAC set ups in the case of ingesting "dirt" (up to a point obviously) as the aluminum is so darn soft it scratches so easily.
Let me run it and see what I think
AJC
The lapped iron/steel set up is a very, very long lasting and durable setup IF you break it in correctly and use the proper fuel. As for break in, using a larger prop to limit rpm's doesnt sound right, when breaking in this type of engine you dont want to overheat (overload) it, but run it rich (use the NV to control rpm's) and in short runs (maybe 2 minutes at a time).
One thing, they are much more tollerant than ABC/AAC set ups in the case of ingesting "dirt" (up to a point obviously) as the aluminum is so darn soft it scratches so easily.
Let me run it and see what I think
AJC
04-16-2004, 06:10 PM
#9
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Breaking in a glow and a diesel is a bit different. The kerosene adds lubrication somewhat while alcohol washes the lube away. For this reason, I would suggest a smaller than normal prop for the glow.
For an iron/steel glow I would recommend the standard iron/steel break in, ie. smaller than normal prop, start rich, two minute runs followed by complete cool down. Lean a couple of clicks every other run. If it sags during the two minutes, stop it and cool it down, then resume a few clicks richer.
For an iron/steel diesel I run a couple of short rich runs to get any junk out then peak it out (careful to not over compress) for a series of two minute runs (shut off by pinching or disconnecting fuel line) followed by complete cool down.
The two procedures is similar except the glow is not fully lean since it is more likely to be affected by thermal runaway, and uses a smaller prop for break-in to decrease the load.
There is never only one way of doing something. These work for me.
Your engine. Your choice.
George
For an iron/steel glow I would recommend the standard iron/steel break in, ie. smaller than normal prop, start rich, two minute runs followed by complete cool down. Lean a couple of clicks every other run. If it sags during the two minutes, stop it and cool it down, then resume a few clicks richer.
For an iron/steel diesel I run a couple of short rich runs to get any junk out then peak it out (careful to not over compress) for a series of two minute runs (shut off by pinching or disconnecting fuel line) followed by complete cool down.
The two procedures is similar except the glow is not fully lean since it is more likely to be affected by thermal runaway, and uses a smaller prop for break-in to decrease the load.
There is never only one way of doing something. These work for me.
Your engine. Your choice.
George
05-22-2004, 11:11 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
AJ have you had a chance to run this motor yet?
Curious to know how the performance is with it...
I'm just sending a check off to Bill for one now. In a couple weeks I should have one to play with for myself. I'll try to get the breakin done right......
Curious to know how the performance is with it...
I'm just sending a check off to Bill for one now. In a couple weeks I should have one to play with for myself. I'll try to get the breakin done right......
05-23-2004, 07:26 AM
#12
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
I am afraid to say, no! After I returned from Toledo, I had to put all that stuff on hold - I had a few planes to get finished for the flying season and work is insanely busy...
I am just about done my last plane for this season (a major repair job on one of my jets from a mishap last year) and then, hopefully, I will be able to get back to running engines. I have a bunch of stuff to get to, however, so I dont know when exactly I will run the CS...
AJC
I am just about done my last plane for this season (a major repair job on one of my jets from a mishap last year) and then, hopefully, I will be able to get back to running engines. I have a bunch of stuff to get to, however, so I dont know when exactly I will run the CS...
AJC
05-23-2004, 05:58 PM
#13
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
WHAT!
That is engine NEGLIGENCE!
I think we will have to send the Dept. of Engine Social Welfare around to take custody of that engine. I believe there is also a relative of it staying there with initials G.Z? I may have to take custody of it PERSONALLY.
A.J, All these dependants are getting to much for you- you can`t see it, I know, but we all can. Now I know that you have been busy in the act that leads to the creation of some of these engines-
I hereby call for volanteers for a D.E.S.W trip to A.Js house.
J.M
That is engine NEGLIGENCE!
I think we will have to send the Dept. of Engine Social Welfare around to take custody of that engine. I believe there is also a relative of it staying there with initials G.Z? I may have to take custody of it PERSONALLY.
A.J, All these dependants are getting to much for you- you can`t see it, I know, but we all can. Now I know that you have been busy in the act that leads to the creation of some of these engines-
I hereby call for volanteers for a D.E.S.W trip to A.Js house.
J.M
06-05-2004, 11:12 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
I received my CS .061 RC today and promptly took it apart to see what was inside! At least as far as I could easily do.
I had heard that this was a BB motor, but this is not the case. There were no wrenches or paperwork with the motor, but it does come with a glow plug installed. The cylinder and head are one machined piece. I couldn't tell if there is a separate liner for the cylinder or not. AJ, can you help with this? There are two holes drilled down through the top of the head/cylinder, used to remove this assembly. I didn't remove this because I didn't want to try and make the custom tool to do the job, just yet. This little guy was crying for some NITRO!
It has a screw on backplate similar to the Cox TD and Norvel motors. The muffler is held on with a single screw. There is no pressure tap in the muffler, but it didn't seem to need it.
I ran it with an old wood 5 1/4 x 3 Top flite prop. This is a very narrow blade prop and I don't think it loads it too much. I run 25% nitro with 20% castor. It has maybe 9 or 10 runs on it now and maybe 6 oz of fuel through it. I started off very rich for the first couple of runs, 12K to 14K RPM. 3 minute runs and at least 10 minutes between runs. I couldn't start it by hand on the first few runs, but a bump with the Norvel starter and it was off easily. After 4 or 5 runs I would pinch the fuel line to lean it a bit. It went up to the mid 18K's with no problem and still not totally leaned out. I would only do this for a few seconds, then release the line and back down to the 15K range, very rich. I started to play a little with the throttle and it wouldn't go down too much without quitting. If I left the juice on the glow plug then it went a lot lower, maybe 8K - 9K. I was very surprized at how broad the needle range was. It took 1/2 turn to get much RPM change at all. One of the last runs I ran it up around 17K, which is still plenty rich, then pinched the fuel line and as it started to lean out it was jumping to the mid 19K range. I thought the small prop was the reason for the high RPM's, so I tried a 5x3 black Tornado prop, and it seemed to run just the same. I also ran the white tornado 5x3 with the same results. The tornado props have a lot more blade area to them then the llittle Top Flite.
I think it still needs many more runs before I will really lean it out, and hopefully the throttle response will greatly improve. Right now comparing it to my AME .061 with the AP RC carb, the Norvel gets up to 22K with a 5 1/2 x 3 black Tornado prop. I think the CS will be right in there also when fully broken in. The CS carb seems to work fine, although there is no way to lean the low end on it. I'll know more when it is broken in. It doesn't use the clever norvel and AP threaded barrel to lean the mixture as the throttle closes.
All in all at the ~$30 price it seems to be well worth it! Norvel and AP may have some competition on their hands!
Greg
I had heard that this was a BB motor, but this is not the case. There were no wrenches or paperwork with the motor, but it does come with a glow plug installed. The cylinder and head are one machined piece. I couldn't tell if there is a separate liner for the cylinder or not. AJ, can you help with this? There are two holes drilled down through the top of the head/cylinder, used to remove this assembly. I didn't remove this because I didn't want to try and make the custom tool to do the job, just yet. This little guy was crying for some NITRO!
It has a screw on backplate similar to the Cox TD and Norvel motors. The muffler is held on with a single screw. There is no pressure tap in the muffler, but it didn't seem to need it.
I ran it with an old wood 5 1/4 x 3 Top flite prop. This is a very narrow blade prop and I don't think it loads it too much. I run 25% nitro with 20% castor. It has maybe 9 or 10 runs on it now and maybe 6 oz of fuel through it. I started off very rich for the first couple of runs, 12K to 14K RPM. 3 minute runs and at least 10 minutes between runs. I couldn't start it by hand on the first few runs, but a bump with the Norvel starter and it was off easily. After 4 or 5 runs I would pinch the fuel line to lean it a bit. It went up to the mid 18K's with no problem and still not totally leaned out. I would only do this for a few seconds, then release the line and back down to the 15K range, very rich. I started to play a little with the throttle and it wouldn't go down too much without quitting. If I left the juice on the glow plug then it went a lot lower, maybe 8K - 9K. I was very surprized at how broad the needle range was. It took 1/2 turn to get much RPM change at all. One of the last runs I ran it up around 17K, which is still plenty rich, then pinched the fuel line and as it started to lean out it was jumping to the mid 19K range. I thought the small prop was the reason for the high RPM's, so I tried a 5x3 black Tornado prop, and it seemed to run just the same. I also ran the white tornado 5x3 with the same results. The tornado props have a lot more blade area to them then the llittle Top Flite.
I think it still needs many more runs before I will really lean it out, and hopefully the throttle response will greatly improve. Right now comparing it to my AME .061 with the AP RC carb, the Norvel gets up to 22K with a 5 1/2 x 3 black Tornado prop. I think the CS will be right in there also when fully broken in. The CS carb seems to work fine, although there is no way to lean the low end on it. I'll know more when it is broken in. It doesn't use the clever norvel and AP threaded barrel to lean the mixture as the throttle closes.
All in all at the ~$30 price it seems to be well worth it! Norvel and AP may have some competition on their hands!
Greg
06-06-2004, 07:40 AM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Greg, do you know how much it weighs, I haven't been able to find this information. As you know the attraction with the Norvel is the outstanding power to weight ratio. If the CS is as light or close then Norvel may indeed have some viable compitition. The Norvel .061 weighs in at 1.83 oz.
Darren
Darren
06-06-2004, 08:01 AM
#16
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Andrew,
A few years ago I saw a FIRE type BB CS .061 on a free-flight at Palm Bay, Florida. It went up like a rocket ship. I made a mental note to someday buy one of those. I have pictures somewhere.
I haven't seen this new one yet and assume it is a front rotary design. Sounds good.
A few years ago I saw a FIRE type BB CS .061 on a free-flight at Palm Bay, Florida. It went up like a rocket ship. I made a mental note to someday buy one of those. I have pictures somewhere.
I haven't seen this new one yet and assume it is a front rotary design. Sounds good.
06-06-2004, 08:19 AM
#17
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
The CS sport 061 is not BB as you found out. The G&Z racing engine IS a BB motor.
The head is one piece, and forms the combustion chamber, it also screws down to clamp the liner in. Mine is still sitting in the box..
Dan, the CS engine you are talking about has been replaced with one called the G&Z - do a search here for it as I posted some stuff when I returned from Toledo in early April...
AJC
The head is one piece, and forms the combustion chamber, it also screws down to clamp the liner in. Mine is still sitting in the box..
Dan, the CS engine you are talking about has been replaced with one called the G&Z - do a search here for it as I posted some stuff when I returned from Toledo in early April...
AJC
06-06-2004, 07:08 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Darren,
I got out the digital scale and measured the
CS at: .055kg, 55g and 1.9 oz.
AME at: .055kg, 55g and 1.8 oz.
Thats all the precision my scale has, not sure why the CS shows 1.9 and the AME 1.8, but it did it repeatedly. My AME does have the added weight of the RC carb adapter to use the AP carb.
The overall lenght of the CS, backplate to thrust plate is a good 1/4 inch shorter than the AME.
Greg
I got out the digital scale and measured the
CS at: .055kg, 55g and 1.9 oz.
AME at: .055kg, 55g and 1.8 oz.
Thats all the precision my scale has, not sure why the CS shows 1.9 and the AME 1.8, but it did it repeatedly. My AME does have the added weight of the RC carb adapter to use the AP carb.
The overall lenght of the CS, backplate to thrust plate is a good 1/4 inch shorter than the AME.
Greg
06-07-2004, 08:09 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Thanks for the info Greg. So essentially they weigh the same. Looks like Norvel may have some compitition indeed. Who's selling the CS engines? Also can you get parts if you need them? Also as a side note all my family is from the Rupert, Twin Falls area. Good to hear 1/2 A RC is alive and well in Idaho!
Darren
Darren
06-07-2004, 09:25 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Bill Hughes is selling them. I believe he is the Billy Hughes of the CL Speed fame. Is that correct AJ?
Here is part of his e-mail to me about them:
The prices of the Competition Engines are: > >
GZ/CS .049/.061 FF $80.00 > >
GZ/CS .049/.061 Speed $80.00 A Tuned Pipe for this engine cost $25.00 > >
CS .21 C/L Racing Engine $135.00 > >
CS .049/.061 Sport C/L $25.00 > >
CS .049/.061 Sport R/C $29.00 > >
CS 2.5 F2D Combat Engine $75.00 This is a C/L FAI Combat Engine. > >
All of the other engines from the show the price has not been set. .15 thru .61 R/C and C/L.
They are all Side Exhaust ABC Duel Ball BEaring Engines.
The .061 R/C was ~$35 shipped to me.
I've disguised his address to hopefully keep the SPAM harvesters from getting it.
Remove the delete's.
[email protected]elete
Hopefully he can get a website setup as a store front for them. I just sent him a check for mine.
From his business card:
B&L Hobby Supplies, Inc.
113 N. Chase Ave.
Bartlett, IL 60103
630.736.6036
Here is part of his e-mail to me about them:
The prices of the Competition Engines are: > >
GZ/CS .049/.061 FF $80.00 > >
GZ/CS .049/.061 Speed $80.00 A Tuned Pipe for this engine cost $25.00 > >
CS .21 C/L Racing Engine $135.00 > >
CS .049/.061 Sport C/L $25.00 > >
CS .049/.061 Sport R/C $29.00 > >
CS 2.5 F2D Combat Engine $75.00 This is a C/L FAI Combat Engine. > >
All of the other engines from the show the price has not been set. .15 thru .61 R/C and C/L.
They are all Side Exhaust ABC Duel Ball BEaring Engines.
The .061 R/C was ~$35 shipped to me.
I've disguised his address to hopefully keep the SPAM harvesters from getting it.
Remove the delete's.
[email protected]elete
Hopefully he can get a website setup as a store front for them. I just sent him a check for mine.
From his business card:
B&L Hobby Supplies, Inc.
113 N. Chase Ave.
Bartlett, IL 60103
630.736.6036
06-07-2004, 10:02 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
What about getting them here... Click Engines on the left then Competition Engines in the table that comes up for the G&Z speed engines and Beginner Engines for the sport engines.
http://home.earthlink.net/~whizzz/
If you read the URL it's not a "real" website. However, it is a homepage. He appears legitimate. Does anyone have experience with him?
http://home.earthlink.net/~whizzz/
If you read the URL it's not a "real" website. However, it is a homepage. He appears legitimate. Does anyone have experience with him?
06-08-2004, 08:27 PM
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RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Interesting. That link says that they are true ABC construction. If that is so, then my breakin is wrong. AJ, you took yours apart, do you remember which it was? I thought it was iron piston steel sleeve.
06-09-2004, 02:42 AM
#24
RE: update on the new CS 061 RC engine
Interesting. That link says that they are true ABC construction. If that is so, then my breakin is wrong. AJ, you took yours apart, do you remember which it was? I thought it was iron piston steel sleeve.
Did you see the reference to the .074? That`d be interesting to play with too- but i have a feeling it will be a big bore .061 so maybe not quite as powerful as the norvel .074...?
J.M