D Bronk

...After Tims Thread, about, What would you make, if you had,A CNC This, That ,and ,The Other Thing,plus ,The Doctor telling me, I`m not ,to go Back to Work,and have to stay on Disability.Mainly Stay out of the Body Shop,No Painting.I`ve decide ,that,If I don`t have something to keep me occupied this winter ,I`ll go "Retardo ,ala Nutty".I`m not allowed ,to Race Again, this winter,etc..

...I want to, Marry my ,High School ,and ,College, Machine shop training ,along with ,some of my Work experience ,in the Cast iron Foundry, from when I was a younger Man... I`m hoping, to supplement my income, at the same time..Dissability Pay ,Really,REALLY Sucks..[:'(]

..This weekend, or, the begining of next week, I`m going to Start, making my Homemade Furnace.I`m going to make it a Propane fuel powered Burner.All I really want to do is Melt down some ,old ,Cast aluminum engine parts, that have been scrapped, and ,I`ve been hanging on to.I have ,an old Dodge Van ,Full of this type of Stuff..Once the Furnace has been Built and it `s ready to Fire I`ll just make Aluminum Ingots.I`ll mark them depending on if the melt was Engine Blocks/Heads ,or Pistons.By doing that, my Aluminum will get purer/Cleaner, by the Second Heat,Because the Slag, will removed Twice..The nuggets/ingots ,will be purpose intended..The ingots Made, from Heads ,and blocks, will be Cast molded ,into, Model Engine Heads and Blocks.The melted pistons, will be cast, into Bar Stock, for making Model Engine Pistons..I intend ,to, Make some 1/2A engines.More importantly ,I`m going to make, that Scaled Down In Line, Twin Cylinder, Rotary Valve disc, 2 Stroke engine ,that, I put pictures of, in Tims Thread.From What I`ve seen ,Nobody, has modeled that engine..Don`t know ,what scale ,I`ll go yet ,but when the time comes, I`ll figure that out. ..1:10 might be a good startto just get hte procedures worked out ,but that would make a 34 c.c. engine.To make it ,a 1/4A size engine ,it would have to be Shrunk to 1:1000,for a 0.020" engine..Right Now, I`m starting at Ground ZERO.I do have an Arc welder, a convertable MIG,and,Oxygen-Acetylene Torches for both, Welding-Cutting.So, I have a few odds and ends,but, not of much use, in an, Engine Building Factory..

...DUDE,here`s where, I`m looking for, a Connection,to Hook me up..I spent most of the week, hunting around, for a MINI Lathe..Ive been Checking around, for a 7" X 10" , a 7"x 12",or a 7"x 14"..I`m just Floored by the Variation in Prices,and ,Machines.They all seem to have the same Heads,cross slides, and, Tail stocks..The major difference ,was the length, of the Beds..I contacted a local Machine Supplier,Asked a bunch of Questions,His answer was basically all the American Machines aren`t CSA approved(Canadian saftey standard approved)." all those machines are Crap ,and ,ours are made in Canada, with the Best ",this, and that.I just about laughed,and, Called B.S.on him,but decided to play stupid, because, he wasn`t going to budge on his price anyway..It was like he had this routine memorized..

...I`ve seen Green ones,Yellow ones,Blue ones,Red ones,well ,Lots of different colors..The Best Price I`ve seen is $299.00 American that one had a steady and follow rest,quite a few extras with it..The most expensive was in the nearby City ,to me @ $1000.00 Canadian not including 14% Taxes ,for a total of $1140.00, . It doesn`t have Much for extras,(KING brand)has a chuck, and a dead center,and a couple tools .You have to start buying stuff imediately if you want to start turning anything...I`m not Paying that!!!Considering most electronic controllers, are coming out ,of the same, offshore factories,weather the machine is bought, in the States ,or here.For the Speedway @ $300, that leaves me a lot of room, for paying Duties ,at the Border,and Shipping..For the savings of buying from the States, I can get that lathe, shipped to my door ,riding on a pillow ,and pushed in a wheelbarrow.Another problem I ran into, is, many of these sales outlets won`t ship Internationaly[] ..So, I`ll even consider, a Lightly used ,well cared for Second hand Machine.I want a machine in my Basement by the end of next Month..So, if anybody has a lead, to hook me up ,please let me know..Shortly after I`ve got the Lathe ,I`ll be looking for, a small Mini Mill too..So If you guy`s could,Please ,keep your eyes open for me ,that would be Great..I`ll look at all leads..

...Is this thread appropriate for the Forum??My initial engine will be 1/2A ish..If people don`t mind ,and would like to see, My Engine Manufacturing Plant come together.I`ll take pics, of how ,I`m Scratch building ,my Cheap, MINI Melting Furnace ..I`ll keep it simple, so, the average person can build their own,at home too..Bruce M. ??

...A Pic, of the Speedway at $299.00 American, and, the Canadian made(?) King Mini Lathe @ $ 999.00 Canadian..

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Uncle Dave... Tim may get my back on the casting thing not sure. I would recomend just starting with either 6061 T-6 barstock or if you want to go all out get an extrusion of the block like Cox does and start making chips from there. Not wanting to shatter your dream of a personal foundry but when you smelt your scrap it will not come back to you in the same chemistry and temper. Sorry.

Regarding the lathe. I couldn't tell by the pics did they have thread dials? If not they are little more than a heavy duty wood turning lathe. They will still do alot of what is desired but turning threads concentric to the bore and other features of the engine parts is pretty important and a die won't be accurate enough.

The chuck of the lathe should also be adjustable so you can tram, or indicate, your parts to run true. Makes set-up a whole bunch easier.

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Dave,

All of the lathes and most of the mills sold by Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Homier, Speedway and Micro Mart just to name the ones I can think of are ALL made by Seig in CHINA. This is a look at [link=http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Sieg/Sieg.htm]The Seig Factory[/link]. I have a 7x10 I think Patrick has the larger 8x12. My 7x10 is great but I sometimes wish I had a little bit bigger machine like the 8x12 or bigger. Check your local for-sale papers. We have one here called the Trading Post. It lists everything from cars to computers to tractors to tools. Mine will often have used mills and lathes listed. You should be able to find good used gear fairly cheap. Just remember no matter what you end up with that tooling is where it really hurts!

LAter,
Tim

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Well I don't know jack about casting metals guys so I am of no value for that question. All I know is it takes a crap load of heat to metal some stuff and then you mold it in something..see I know nothing As for threading cutting these little lathes come with a set of change gears. See the lable on the front left side of the machine. It is the list of threads and the change gears needed to cut the given thread.

Also Dave, Ronald Valentine has made a few different models of an inline twin rotary valve engine in sizes smaller than .010 and up to .020 sized pistons. Heck I think he also made some flat 4 too!

LAter,
Tim

D Bronk

Yup, Both Lathes are capable of cutting Metric, and ,Standard Threads,and come with the index dials..The three jaw chucks are easiest to use .I like the 4 jaws ,because you can setup, some pretty weird shapes, in it..All lathes can be Squared up (trammed),as far as I know.I think these Leave the factory, with a Max.of 0.0003" -0.0004"..

..."when you smelt your scrap it will not come back to you in the same chemistry and temper. Sorry. "

Vic There`s guy`s, that are building, model 9 @ 18 cylinder Radials,, exactly how I`m going to go about doing this .They aren`t adding anything But for Giggles, I`ll take a Ingot To Amsco( Foundry, that I was machining at ) and have a Rockwell Hard test done on it, and see ..The metalurgist there ,will tell me, if I need to add anything to the Melt,or what needs to be done..If any heat treating is needed, he`ll help me out with that too..I`ll probably build an oven too..

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

The reason behind the threading capability comment was when I visited CP's shop he was showing me his machine. Lo-an-behold no thread dial[X(]. He had gears for changing speeds and feeds but his feed engagement lever only took it in and out of gear for feeding no threading. The manual didn't even comment on it. With some trial and error over the next decade you might be able to calculate what the machine is acutally doing and rig up a threading system there but I would rather get one that did things the way they are meant to.
My machine btw is an antique South Bend, I think it originally saw service...in the service.
Tim is also correct on the cost of tooling.

SGC

Dave,
A great website for you to brouse and learn is :- http://modelenginenews.org/
Stewart

hogflyer

I've got the Harbor Freight 7x10 mini-lathe. It has a nice selection of gears for thread cutting - just a bit of a pain to change them. It's variable speed, and will cut left and right hand threads quite nicely. The same machine is sold by Enco and several others. There is a Yahoo Groups forum for the 7x10 that has some pretty good info about them. Just remember your dealing with a 80 lb. benchtop lathe, not a 4 ton Monarch.

Hogflyer

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

I've got the Harbor Freight 9x20 ($699) and it's a nice machine. Very nice. But, limited in the same manner as CP's. The bright side is the vast number of good websites dedicated to it and the quick, easy ways to get around the limitations. You should seriously consider getting something larger than the 7x10, 7x12 lathes. Not much more money and the accessories included in the Harbor Freight version will get you cutting with nothing more than some bits. The stuff in the box actually made up the difference in the price! The only thing I didn't get and need is a 4-jaw chuck. Oh, the 1/2" MT2 drill chuck from HF works in it, too. A lot of the mini-lathe parts will work on it. It uses 1/2" height bits. That piece of info wasn't anywhere to be found when I was looking.

Oh yeah, the depth and size of cut is a serious limitation on the smaller lathes. You can work much faster with a bigger lathe. Much faster!

D Bronk

"Well I don't know jack about casting metals guys so I am of no value for that question. All I know is it takes a crap load of heat to metal some stuff and then you mold it in something..see I know nothing"

... You`ve got the Basics figured out .As for Sieg I`ve spent the most part, of the week Learning about them ,and their products. I know they`re a good little machine,with a bit of a Home Tune-up when you getit, from what I read..I`ve not bumped into, any 8" swing LATHES, but, if it`s a Sieg, I wouldn`t doubt ,if it`s the same Head, with a 1" spacer bolted under it ,and a Jacked up tailstock to match..Tim we have a similar local paper, "Buy and Sell"they`re on line too..I`ll check them.Sort of ,Kinda,Forgot about those adds.
Ronald Valentines` engines were they Rotary disc??I want to see thos engines ..Link??

Tim I don`t know ,if you know ,but you can buy a 14" bed/with the lead screw to match, that you transfer your lathe parts too $150.00,makes a true Center-centre 14"er

...What Brand /model Lathe have you Got C.P.??You might be able to add the Split nut and Dials for making threads ..

... Vic there was an ancient Southbend,in College .We had a bunch of new Lathes there, at the Time, but I always tried to get that Old Girl. ..If I couldn`t get to use that one,there was a German made machine ,can`t remember ,what it was, but that was my second favorite, to use.

As far as tooling I really want to have as much Comes with as Possible,and will look for an upright Mill attachment (Tilts ,and Raises and lowers)that bolts to the Compound rest ,verv limited use, but I should be able to make something with that...


..Bigger would be better, but I`m going to go small first.I think the Speedway, has My Attention at this point..I`ll have to write them, and see if I can get delivery ,true cost to my house.Duty Broker fees ,delivery ,and God knows, What else..

Now, I`ve got to go ,dig up my Silica sand, that I`ll be useing ,to make my Furnace Lining, and, homemade Mold making Sand.It`ll probably be used for Cores too....I`m so lucky .It`s all within walking distance ..Show you what I mean later

D Bronk

Guys Thanks for input but I have to bugger ..I`ll look at everyones suggestions.The 7"x mini lathe site has lot`s of good info there I`ve been studying it pretty hard .Stewart I`ll check that engine site this afternoon..Thanks All..Dave

hogflyer

If you're willing to stay with the small bench top/jewlers type of lathe, check out the Sherline and Taig products. Very high quality, but also quite limited due to their small size (I've got the Sherline mill). If you're going to work on really small stuff like the spray bars it will give you some very good accuracy. I've seen a 1/4 scale P-51 landing gear (functional oleo struts) made on a Sherline lathe and mill.

Both are really nice, acurate machines, the yet again they are very small and quite limited in size, but not quality and precesion. Guess you get what you pay for.

Hogflyer

Rick W

My Feedback: (20)

D

If you can afford it get a 9X20, the next size up. You can pick one up from Harbor on sale for about $699, and it's not a bad machine. I found that I always run across something that you need a bigger lathe for. The 9X20 will handle just about anything for modeling, but if you want to do something a little larger you have the machine. .

Since we're busy at the shop and I can't get my hobby stuff in the machine, I'll build my piston for my cox (earlier post) on my 9x20 lathe and the rod on a Harbor mill, at home. Then I'll write a CAD program for the CNC to make a run of them when I get my new CNC lathe, first job in that baby, at the shop. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks.

Anyhow good luck and spin a lot of metal it's a kick.

Rick

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

So is mine!!,South Bend, actually its my dads and he had it before I was born in 58 ,,leather drive belts and all it has about 100 speeds in the tranny!! I'm not any kind of machinist, I just play with it every now and then,,Vic you got a pic of yours?....Rog

KidEpoxy

Hey there Uncle Dave

I know you have an example motor for the disk valve inline twin, but that would require a worm/angle/takeoff gear cut on the crank for the valve drive/shaft, right? I was thinking about a drum valve to vent open to the front then rear & act as the crankcase volume seperator.

Just figuring on 2 Surestarts back to back with the reed area replaced with the drum.... and of course chop the back output stuff off. This quicky doodle is not upto the standards of a UD Diagram, but it gets the idea across.

--edit:
Oh, this is a top view, the pink carb/venturi would be a side draft in normal orientation.
And I know the port timing is not accurate, its just a pic to get the basic idea

BMatthews

Those little ones are fine for hobby stuff but if you're looking at doing any sort of even half hearted production on a lathe then you're going to find that they are far too small for many tasks. And on top of that you'll be wanting to make a lot of special tooling and jigs. The small machines may be OK for some of the model parts but they sure as shootin' will be too small or light duty for making many of the jigs.

If this is going to be a company sort of deal then look into doing it right. Figure out your target market and products to fit it. Do a bit of a business plan with realistic goals staggered over the next 4 to 5 years. Borrow money to buy the RIGHT machines off the bat. Then by the tooling for it that you need and when you need.

Buying small now and upgrading later often won't work. The tooling is at least as costly as the machines and in many cases more so. Having to replace all the tooling when you replace the machines will really kick the ol' pocketbook right in the pants. So figure out what you really need and buy it up front even if it means going in debt.

Check into getting trained to be a CNC machine operator. It's a new career and it's relatively clean of chemicals such as found in the autobody industry. I know there's a shop out here that's crying for a machine operator. You don't need to know how to program it. Just select the parts and plug the blocks into the vise pretty much.

cncswiss1

I'd skip the mini lathes with various attachments and try to find an older CNC to work with, gang tooled they are VERY versatile. or a nice toolroom lathe.

[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/HARDINGE-HLV-BK-Super-Precision-Tool-Room-Lathe-Machine_W0QQitemZ130031634199QQihZ003QQcategoryZ97 230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]http://cgi.ebay.com/HARDINGE-HLV-BK-Super-Precision-Tool-Room-Lathe-Machine_W0QQitemZ130031634199QQihZ003QQcategoryZ97 230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/link]

[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/CINCINNATI-HYDRASHIFT-Manual-Lathe-Machine-with-DRO_W0QQitemZ130031943815QQihZ003QQcategoryZ97230Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]http://cgi.ebay.com/CINCINNATI-HYDRASHIFT-Manual-Lathe-Machine-with-DRO_W0QQitemZ130031943815QQihZ003QQcategoryZ97230Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/link]

[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-MIYANO-13-CNC-LATHE-TURNING-CENTER-DN-90_W0QQitemZ130030649822QQihZ003QQcategoryZ97230QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-MIYANO-13-CNC-LATHE-TURNING-CENTER-DN-90_W0QQitemZ130030649822QQihZ003QQcategoryZ97230QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/link]

[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-1991-EMCO-TURN-CNC-LATHE-W-EMCOTRONIC-TM02-CONTRL_W0QQitemZ260034065879QQihZ016QQcategoryZ972 30QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-1991-EMCO-TURN-CNC-LATHE-W-EMCOTRONIC-TM02-CONTRL_W0QQitemZ260034065879QQihZ016QQcategoryZ972 30QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/link]


[link=http://cgi.ebay.com/1999-BRIDGEPORT-ROMI-13x45-GEARED-HEAD-ENGINE-LATHE_W0QQitemZ130031991466QQihZ003QQcategoryZ9723 0QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]http://cgi.ebay.com/1999-BRIDGEPORT-ROMI-13x45-GEARED-HEAD-ENGINE-LATHE_W0QQitemZ130031991466QQihZ003QQcategoryZ9723 0QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/link]

D Bronk

Whoa lots of posts here to read.. I`ll have to do some reading ,and then I`ll get back in Here again this eve.....In the meantime ,Lets see pics ,of what you guys have for Lathes, and, the Pros ,and Cons, of what you have.I remember in College the Instructor told as to always buy the best you can afford,,Key word ,is "afford".Also, to stay away, from the Combos.Tommorrow, I`m going to get the Majority of the Materials, I`ll need, to build my MELTER,.I`ll get the Materials for the furnace liner ,and ,to make my own Molding sand..Core Boxes(Cope and Drag).I`ve got to run around, and see, what I can Find for a crucible(melting pot) too.I`ll have to make Lifting tongs,skimmers,find bits, and pieces, to make up a propane burner.If things go well, I can see My first ,Fire-up, to cook the liner out, the next Saturday,after this one coming..

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Harbor Freight 7x10 Lathe.....

Pros: Takes up little space
Cuts threads
Lower tooling cost
Easy to keep clean(when I do it[])

Cons: Short bed
Factory 3 jaw chuck( I really need to buy a 4 jaw soon )
Not solid enough to handle the form tools I would like

Harbor Freight Sieg X2 Mill.....

Pros: Small foot print
Alot of tooling avalible with R8 taper
Runs on standard 120v
Fine feed on the Z axis
Easy to refit to CNC

Cons: Plastic gears in head
Could use a little more travel on the Z axis

LAter,
Tim

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Dave, one more. Check out the flowerpot crucible! http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

For economical smelting, I always thought you would want to use coal and a blower type fan? The engine forum guys have recipes for high silicone pistons and crankcase alloys.

D Bronk

Guy`s ,I`m afraid I can`t afford a bigger unit than the 7"X series.I agree Bigger would be the way to go ,but I just want to make a Small cottage buisness..And to go out, and borrow money,right off the Bat .Well.I just won`t do it, I hate being under a lenders thumb..They can Break you, before you even get going...A small lathe, will do what I need for now..Actually I have a bid on a lightly used Sieg 7"X 10",If I don`t win it .I`ll go after the Speedway Homier.7"x 12".They were out of stock yesterday .Today they have them again..Honestly the time will come, for the bigger machine.The small machine, will never be sold ,and be kept and used for MINI Jobs,like making Core patterns ,and mold patterns,as well ,as light duty machine jobs...Once I buy a tool ,I don`t let them go/sell, they all pay for themselves in the long run ,and eventually don`t owe me anything.It`s all I can manage right now ,but, it gets me rolling..

Pt. That sight is Awesome, I`ve been in there alot in the last few days..The Flower pot is a a coal burner and I don`t want to mess with that..They all can burn coal .The one I`m going to make, will have molten aluminum, in under 25 minutes...The propane is instant heat,costs a bit more to run,but it`s faster ,and easier to use, there`s no pile of ashes to clean up, after Cool down..

BMatthews

OK, I hear you on the money issue. But you WILL find that any of the 7xX series will often not allow you enough room for the workpiece and some of the larger tooling like drill bits in the tail stock or to turn any sort of larger castings being made for tooling or jigs. Remember that with the 7x10 and 7x12 the 10 and 12 are the distances between CENTERS. Adding a three jaw chuck uses up almost 3 inches of that. A tail stock drill chuck will use a good 2.5 of that. Suddenly you're down to only 6.5 inches of room to work with. A 1/2 inch drill bit is often as much as 5 to 6 inches protrusion from the chuck. So you have from .5 to 1.5 inches of room for your workpiece. And that's with the LONG 12 inch version.

I know they seem like a nice looking little machine but the operative word here is LITTLE.

SInce your in Canada like me I'll not bother with the Harbour Frieght listings since it's a pain to get the stuff up here. Lets look at Busy Bee.

Currently they have the 7x8 (with a smaller chuck but still very limited space for work and tooling) on sale for $749C. For only $150 more you can get the 10 x 18. Suddenly you have more than twice the EFFECTIVE working room compared to even a 7x12 for work and tooling and a chuck that is capable of holding far more workpiece options. All for only $150 more.

You can see this at ...
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/produ...30928061179757

But keep in mind that if it's been a lot of years since you played with this stuff that you're in for a HEAP of a steep learning curve. Any chance that you can get welfare or UI to pay for some machinists training since it's a medical reason you're being bumped? Some training would sure help out.

If you survive the lathe work introduction we'll talk about a mill drill and attachements later...

PS: Oh what the heck. They've got this middle sized mill/drill on sale as well. $1150
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/pictu...0&NTITEM=B1976

Japanman

Dave,
Don`t fret about the speedway 7x12, its the one I have [8D] and i can tell you that it makes great fora 020 pistons!
It has its drawbacks, like the burs on a few of the parts that you want to spend a bit of time taking off with a file, but as Tim has said, the tooling is cheap and there are LOTS of people who have them, so there are tons of aftermarket parts available (I couldn`t find any boysen reeds that would work though), as well as a big potential pool of secondhand machines.

Have you seen the littlemachineshop.com? I splashed out on the quickchange (phase two) tooling set and a four jaw and live centre etc etc and it was all (except the quick change) really cheap.
I have found a very good source of cutters: cobalt highspeed drills that I hit with the angle grinder to give them a flat side so they can be held in the tool post and then ground to shape. I get em for less than $1 US at my 1 dollar shop and they`re great!

Stefan

cncswiss1

as for burrs cut scotchbrite pads into circles, mount em on the ole snag grinder (bench grinder).. they are GREAT for fine deburring (we use them all the time for medical implants)....

find screw machine length drills to save length on the Z axis..

www.mscdirect.com... have them send you their catalog, loads of drills and sinple tooling.. for that matter I can dig up used carbide if you need any.