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Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Old 05-26-2009, 04:43 PM
  #101  
RocketRob
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

as sharp as the glow APC's are I would not want to be a flippin that lecky prop
Old 05-26-2009, 08:31 PM
  #102  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

The cyclic torque (accel - decel) from compression and firing isgenerally greater with diesel. But if you are only turning 10k on thediesel, any size prop will be strong enough. Just don't be surprised ifit fails. Be careful about inspecting the props after landings and the prop arc while it's running.

The APC 4.1x4.1 I have has a nice strong root. It's not an E prop.
Old 05-27-2009, 12:52 AM
  #103  
DeviousDave
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

I did a little checking here and on APC's site, the only list a 4.1-4.1 in a Sp400 size, and that's how the packaging reads on mine. The root chord is pretty good size relative to the rest of the blade, but the hub is APC E standard.

I did notice that APC offers Carbon E props in the 4.7-4.7 and 4.7-4.5 sizes. These merit investigation too..

My only experience with this prop was in trying to experiment with a hot 6 cell 4.8v Sp400 setup for NATs pylon. In the air it was inferior to the 4.5-4.1 at a slight decrease in amp draw. At the time I was trying to get the motors to last more than two flights, and I gave up on the 4.1-4.1 as it didn't help with longevity or performance.

A glow motor would be another story as from the sounds of it there are no commercial props on the market that will allow the Picco to reach peak power on the ground. I'm sure it will be scary fast compared to a Norvel after unloading, but to get the best out of it we'll need really clean airframes. Just off the top of my head this motor doesn't have the same torque at lower RPM as a Cyclon as tested so far, so it really may be out of it's element until mid-30's when the Cyclon is really showing. Of course, a Cyclon doesn't have a carb or muffler so those are avenues to explore first if the motor is too wild but my gut says that the port timing is going to be where this motor is helped/hurt depending on what you are looking for from it.
Old 05-27-2009, 07:19 AM
  #104  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



DD, My comment on flipping the lecky prop was intended for AW's 10" diesel/eletric - in fact I can't even get the electric props out of the bag without cutting myself.[:-]



I am very familiar with the 4.1x4.1 lecky.



Have more than a couple laying around. It has been the prop of choice for my lehner/lipo avionik stinger. Not sure what it tachs out to but has been clocked at 134 straight and level. It is about 4 seasons old and running "old school" lipos.



can youcompare thisphoto with yours?
a 4.2x4 and a 4.1x4.1

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Old 05-27-2009, 10:38 AM
  #105  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Boy, that's a sharp looking prop. Two ways to read that. Rob is right. But hand flip? I used to and wasted a great deal of time. Something about timing maybe, don't know but most of my small engines won't hand start easily, Norvels are the best example. Too much taper in the cylinder maybe.Those that do hand start easily are ABC types with lots of pinch. They feel a lot more slippery. When I anodize 6061 aluminum, it feels as hard as Norvel's process but not so abrasive. Got to try that soon. Got lots of good, orphaned, nickle plated pistons.

I ran a GWS 8 x 4 on my Brodak/Norvel hybrid, the one that does 19.9K on a black Tornado. The GWS blades are constant chord, thin undercambered blades all the way to the hub. I flew one for 15 minutes on my Low Stik. Held up well, heard some buzzing, now and again for a second or so each time. This is not something I'd recommend, I did it with extreme caution, just to see. Where I fly is an old tailings pond, even the vultures avoid it so no danger. Save the vultures, we need them.

Still waiting for my very small, APC props to try on the Picco and the hybrid. No time to take timing numbers but soon, hopefully. Does Picco publish timing on their engines?
Old 05-27-2009, 11:56 AM
  #106  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



About reedies. What if you used the back end of a Cox reedie, (for the reed assembly) and built a case to take modern bits, like Revlite or ABC?

No shortage of stuff to try in our world. Feel sorry for the other guys.
Andy, do a search for Wayne Trivin. He is no longer with us but someone had the foresite to keep his web site up and running (CLRA I think). Wayne was a control line race and he had modified a Norvel to make it a reedie. Idon' have the URL to the site at hand but it should come up pretty quickly in a Google search. Iwill look later and if Ifind it Iwill post it. Wayne modified an engine (and he wasn't the only one) into a reedie to use in control line mouse racing until it was banned

cheers, Graham
Old 05-27-2009, 12:01 PM
  #107  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: RocketRob

What do you guys think of a APC 4.75x4 combat prop?
larger hub to ream for the tokki prop adapter and bit wider blades than the 4.2x4

Bet CPknows about it?
APCalso has a 4.5x4 which is popular with the mouse racers. A well tuned mouse racing reedie will turn it around the 20K+ mark. Might be worth trying to get a data point at 4.2x4 4.5x4 and 4.7x4 - all being roughly equal or as equal as you could get off the shelf, short of putting the engine on a dyno (and hopefully the prop coefficient for these three being close) you might be able to infer a bit better the torque curve of the stock motor.

cheers, Graham
Old 05-27-2009, 12:13 PM
  #108  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: DeviousDave

Something to keep in mind with the APC's is that the electric props use the larger REAR portion of the hole to locate the prop, and you absolutely HAVE to sand the rear of the hub if uyou are going to spin the bejeezus out of them. The mold flashing makes then run out of true and mimicks an out of balance vibration.

Actually, if you have a look at APC's website you will find that they specify that the larger rear hole is the one that is centered, not the smaller front hole.

see: http://www.apcprop.com/v/html/tech_s...html#holealign

cheers, Graham
Old 05-27-2009, 03:13 PM
  #109  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Found it, http://www.nclra.org/WayneTrivin/VAReedConversion.html

Thanks, Graham, some good tips there all around. Wayne even went so far as to accomplish chrome plating.

I have cranks from the Queen Bee. Along with .049 pistons and cylinders we could have a long stroke .06, just to see.
Old 05-27-2009, 03:46 PM
  #110  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

The timing will be all out of wack if you just swap in a different crank. Never the less it has worked for you before.

The prop I thought was a 4.1x4.1 on my electric wing was a 4.2x4 Now, I remember I wanted to put on a 4.1x4.1, but didn't have any. I still don't and broke the last 4.2x4 on a landing this weekend.
Old 05-27-2009, 03:53 PM
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Greg,

Yes, I've been lucky just slapping random parts together but not always. Installing a Norvel crank into a Brodak didn't work all that well. Timing wasn't that far off though, a puzzle. But the Cox Queen Bee .074 was a reedie in the first place. I'm also looking for more Cox car cranks, tougher than stock reedies for this application.
Old 05-27-2009, 08:56 PM
  #112  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Should just listen to CP and stay with the 4.2x4.

my 4.1x4.1 measures 3.75 pitch and has a very aggressive shoulder
the 4.2x4 measures a 3.5 pitch and just looks right.

and you don't have to hide behind the stand while running it.

The tweaked engine turned the 4.1 prop at 27,600
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:54 AM
  #113  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: AndyW

Greg,

Yes, I've been lucky just slapping random parts together but not always. Installing a Norvel crank into a Brodak didn't work all that well. Timing wasn't that far off though, a puzzle. But the Cox Queen Bee .074 was a reedie in the first place. I'm also looking for more Cox car cranks, tougher than stock reedies for this application.
Andy,

I have some Cox 049 car cranks if you want them - they are the ones with the tapered nose, not the ones with the spline. Ithink Ihave 3 more left if you are interested (and a couple matching crankcases as well).

And yes, Wayne did the reedie conversion to a VAnot a Norvel. I have some Norvel parts at home and have been giving some thought to my own Norvel reedie conversion.

cheers, Graham

Old 05-28-2009, 07:44 AM
  #114  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



Graham,



I've also seen that APC info - about the centered hole being in the rear of the prop.



What does not make sence is that the reducer they send you only fits in the front - making the front hole primary?



I use the front hole if using a spacer (small props), and use the rear hole if reaming the prop,



Not to infer that I am a back door man...

Old 05-28-2009, 11:50 AM
  #115  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: RocketRob



Graham,



I've also seen that APC info - about the centered hole being in the rear of the prop.



What does not make sence is that the reducer they send you only fits in the front - making the front hole primary?



I use the front hole if using a spacer (small props), and use the rear hole if reaming the prop,



Not to infer that I am a back door man...

It is a bit confusing, perhaps we have fronts and backs confused - to me the backside is the one that goes against the prop driver (closest to the engine) and the front is the other side. When reading APC's site that is the same impression I get. APC also recommends reaming from the front non-precison hole so as not to touch the precision hole (on the back).

The only reducers I have gotten with the APCprops always fit the larger hole on the backside. I primarly use the 4.2x4, 4.5x4, 4.75x4, 5.7x3, 6x2 and 6x3. Ihave a vague recollectionof some of the larger (ie 6.5x4 combat prop) being different but Idon't recall the details. I guess perhaps I assumed all APCprops where the same and I shouldn't - APChas such wideproduct rangeand I am notfamiliar with the whole line.

I run across many discussions on a variety of forums about this subject. Many complaints about why APCjust can't make a prop with one size hole that is centered (among others), some old wives tales and some well thought solutions to dealing with the props. I get the impression that a lot of users just buy the props and bolt them on the engines (electric, glow, diesel or gas) and don't give it any other thought. If it doesn't fit they drill out the hole, wrap some tape around the crankshaft or what ever short cut gets them to where they want to be. Irecall seeing someone enlarging the hole on a large APCprop with his pocket knife to put on his .60 size plane having broken the previous one on his last flight.

I should take some time an poke around on APC's website again, refresh my memory and perhaps correct some of my own mis conceptions.

While off topic for this thread it is an interesting topic.

cheers,Graham
Old 05-28-2009, 12:05 PM
  #116  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: GrahamC


ORIGINAL: DeviousDave

Something to keep in mind with the APC's is that the electric props use the larger REAR portion of the hole to locate the prop, and you absolutely HAVE to sand the rear of the hub if uyou are going to spin the bejeezus out of them. The mold flashing makes then run out of true and mimicks an out of balance vibration.

Actually, if you have a look at APC's website you will find that they specify that the larger rear hole is the one that is centered, not the smaller front hole.

see: http://www.apcprop.com/v/html/tech_s...html#holealign

cheers, Graham
Yep, that's what Isaid.


ETA:The spacers fit the rear. If you guys are getting them in the front somehow, I'm curious to know how unless you have an arbor press.

Old 05-28-2009, 01:12 PM
  #117  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Dave was correct in his post. We've been using them since they firstcame out, I guess over ten years ago now. The larger hole in the backof the prop is the locator. The bushings supplied with the props fitsthe back in the APC, unless they changed something, I've only purchasedlarger props in recent years. The flashing on the back of the hub is aproblem and can lead to alignment trouble. I understand they injectthrough the front of the hub and the front hole is cut off to separateit from the runner.
Old 05-28-2009, 03:55 PM
  #118  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



Guys, now I'm confused.



Look at my photo in post #106.



The prop on the bottom is the 4.1 and the front is face up and clearly visable is the insert ring as installed from the front.



I'll look at a few more when I get home.

Old 05-28-2009, 04:33 PM
  #119  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: RocketRob



Guys, now I'm confused.



Look at my photo in post #106.



The prop on the bottom is the 4.1 and the front is face up and clearly visable is the insert ring as installed from the front.



I'll look at a few more when I get home.

IIRC, the glow props (which the 4.2-4 is) don't use shaft bushings, just the electric. Idon't see a ring inserted in the prop in the pic, but the resolution isn't good enough to say. I've bought only a few 4.2-4's since they were available and Idon't think Ihave ever known them or the other 1/2A props to use pressed in bushings like the electric props do.

Old 05-28-2009, 08:26 PM
  #120  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Rob, take a close look. That prop is bored out pretty big, there probably is no bushing at all.
Old 05-28-2009, 08:34 PM
  #121  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc


ORIGINAL: DeviousDave

IIRC, the glow props (which the 4.2-4 is) don't use shaft bushings, just the electric. I don't see a ring inserted in the prop in the pic, but the resolution isn't good enough to say. I've bought only a few 4.2-4's since they were available and I don't think I have ever known them or the other 1/2A props to use pressed in bushings like the electric props do.
That's exactly how I understand it too - the props with bushings are electric, those without are 1/2A. It;s all on their site.

MJD

Old 05-28-2009, 09:37 PM
  #122  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc



Well first I can't read the little numbers on the front of the prop, then I mistake a bit of flashing as the reducer...
think it's time to get the eyes checked or screw another bulb in the lamp

Rob-putting his reducer in from the rear as I put a new prop on the caudron 4.75x5 apcE

Old 05-28-2009, 10:17 PM
  #123  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

I'm just here to who ask, has ever bolted up a APC 4 inch prop and had a vibration problem?
Old 05-29-2009, 07:42 AM
  #124  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

I balance my little APC props. The only ones I don't balance are the Graupner CAM props. They seem to be right on every time.
Old 06-06-2009, 10:47 AM
  #125  
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Default RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc

Well I just recieved my Picco and the front end parts from mecoa! hopefully I can get it into my buddies shop soon to make a venturi and turn down the head and spinner on a lathe. What size intake should I go for the venturi?

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