colingw

Maybe its time for the 1/2A community to have a good long talk with Ken Enya. They continue to develop & release new engines both for the general R/C sports market and for niches like C/L (e.g. the new .32CX - available in C/L and R/C form, side & rear exhaust). I'm sure Enya would be quite capable of building a .06 with the attributes we want.

The thought of a Norvel like engine with Enya quality is compelling.

digital_trucker

No, not a Norvel-like engine (except maybe in performance) - an ENYA-like .05-.06 would be heavenly. The Enya .09 is a gem! Good for giant-scale applications

airraptor

My Feedback: (66)

Cp CP CP...... always a smart ass

digital i see that point too. I know they are crap engines, but that is all we have now. buy these should show that there is still a market for these type of engines. all it takes is someone to se that these have been selling and other mfg will want to get in on the profits.

I dub jett made a couple .03's i have been begging for one of those for a long time. maybe if we all hit him up and aksed if could make some norvel 61s

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Sorry airraptor, I just fail to see how having everyone run out to buy a couple Brodaks will send the message that they need to improve them.

It is a "Catch 22". If you don't buy them, they will stop making them, but I work too hard for what little I got to toss it at one of these engines.

I do not see how anyone can build a quality 1/2A engine with all the features you see on a .10, .15, .25, .40, on up, size engine unless they charge a premium for it.

Engines get cheaper by the dozen, but none of the big engine manufacturers who know what sells and what doesn't is going to commit to a big run of quality .049s. It would simply take too long for them to unload them on the very limited amount of small engine geeks out there.

colingw

Heh, maybe I got that backwards. How about an Enya-like engine with Norvel performance :-)

Agree completely about the Enya 09. I have an 09-IV in a control line model at present, and it gives me flawless runs.

airraptor

My Feedback: (66)

are the castings for the norvels for sale?

digital_trucker

Well, let's see.....an O.S. .10LA goes for $70. An Enya .09 goes for $73.

So what you're saying is that the kind of engine we're looking for can't be sold for an equivalent amount and won't sell as many units as these? When the outfit that makes it will essentially have the market cornered?

*scratches head*

None of the arguments against such an engine add up to "can't"...they're all variations of "won't" and "don't". Assuming just for the sake of argument that using a turbo plug and adding an adjustable airbleed are engineering feats, I fail to see how such an engine couldn't be made and sold for $80 max. Considering that $50 or thereabouts was the going rate for a Norvel a decade ago, that seems to be a heckuva bargain to me.

Max_Power

Just a odd though....maybe were workin this thing from the wrong end?? Who says it might not be easier to get someone who is obviously capable of meeting the goal(PROFI,FORA, etc) to produce a "sport" engine and widen their market than trying to get someone making junk that is obviously selling to try to improve their product? I for one would be happy with a engine that does what we want for anything less than $100...Maybe if they could sell a bunch more product these guys could lower prices enough to make it happen. I know a carb and muffler adds a lot to these guys cost...but how bout just mod the case to accept norvel or other common non-wear pieces, etc?? Todd

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

A .049 engine can be produced with the same amount of cost to produce as a larger engine, but if the demand isn't there the producer goes broke.

Brodak has a different approach. They are selling to a very limited market an engine that costs as little as possible, has the fewest hand movements from start to finish. They know they could do better, but they do not feel they would sell enough extra engines to justify the cost of increasing quality.
I'm sure they also know that their main competition is better engines, still NIB on ebay which can still be had for less money than what they can produce a profitable engine for.

Long story short, I'm happy with the current state of affairs in 1/2A engine land. I see that glow heads are available for .074s now. We got Zenalook for Cox needs. There are some great .10s out there that will power many of the old .049 designs nicely.

As long as there is so much out there already for so very FEW of us, you will not be seeing tiny engine makers stick their necks out in the real and uncaring world of business with anything extraordinary.

digital_trucker

I suspect it would take a much larger investment for a manufacturer such as those to produce the engine. Uber-high performance engines are most often made in limited runs by small manufacturers (and sold at a premium) for a reason. They usually don't have the capacity to make a run large enough to keep costs down.

Bear in mind that O.S. made that limited commemorative edition engine....so they've done all the basic engineering work already. Surely it wouldn't be much of an effort to wrap the working parts in a cast crankcase?

CP: I refer to my earlier use of the term "cornered market" When all that's available are grossly inferior products and leftovers from decades past, it's a perfect time for someone to set a whole new standard. For many decades, the standard 1/2A was Cox (which outlived it's design by several decades, thanks for nothing there). Then Norvel came on the scene and it's been the one to be compared to even though it too has been long gone. So yeah, I'm sticking with my statement that any company that takes it to the next level (and it would be sooooo easy to do from a design standpoint) will have the market for the foreseeable future. Companies like OS, Enya, and perhaps even Thunder Tiger just to name a few are perfectly positioned to take advantage of the current situation. They just gotta do it.

Max_Power

Surely you may be correct DT But to me its hard to imagine what would be more motivation for a manufacturer....For a Company that sells 1,000,000 engines a year at a 75$ average price to be able to sell 1,002,500 engines at the same price point...Or a Co that sells 1,000 engines a year for $150/unit to be able to sell 3500/yr units at $100 per. If these things are on manual machines I'd back your point...But if its all CNC that multimillion dollar machine pays itself off a lot quicker running 24 hrs a day than 4. I'm absolutely sure there is much I dont know that would affect this...but stranger things have happened. At the rate I'm getting models in the air for the engines I do have there isnt really a emergency for me anyway.....But I'd sure like to see some mid-performance 1/2a hit the market till I get some screamer ready airframes together for a Cyclon,etc

mylamo

My Feedback: (1)

I am not a competition flier any longer so have no particular
loyalty to the .049. I have been powering the old designs and
my own with .09 size engines for years.They throttle and last
much better but sometimes look too large,other than that I
really do not see a down side. I still like to see the half A
works of art produced on this forum. Keepum commin'
TeeBee et al.
Ralph

digital_trucker

Okay, here's the results of a couple hours worth of work. This engine is the C/L version of the MK II. Bear in mind this is just a concept. The head is identical, except that it's machined to use a turbo plug. So far, the only difference in the crankcase are the muffler mounting lugs, and the existing exhaust stub is eliminated. I'm going to continue modifying the design to have the carb body cast integral with the case (similar to the TT07). That will save weight, and should save on machining costs. I'll no doubt have to tweak things, especially in the area of the muffler mounting lugs...they look a little too overdone at the moment. My point is this....how hard would it have been to do it right the first time?

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

VERY nice. But I'd make the muffler just like the one on the Norvel .074,,, lighter and simpler to make. Also provide an extension and longer bolts to clear scale cowls.

THE problem, it appears, is making it out of modern metallurgy. AAN is the cheapest, I think, as the nickle can be applied via the electroless method. It plates evenly, all around and would minimize any final honing.

skaliwag

My Feedback: (1)

Is wonder if Mr Enya is reading this one. He does seem to be the most accessible of the "Wheels" of our 1/2A engine destiny.

digital_trucker

Andy, if it were homemade I agree fully. For an established engine maker it'd be no more expensive to use standard metallurgy. As an aside, do you happen to remember the port timings on the VA MK II?

controlliner

When I ordered a Quicky .09 from Ken Enya, I also asked him if he would consider producing an .049 or .061 again. He replied with " I don't think it would be equitable in today's market."[&o][]

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

DT,

I should have the VA MK2 numbers somewhere. If not, I'll put the timing wheel on my one, remaining, stock unit and let you know.

About Enya. That IS a shame but accurate, I'm sure. If CS took their current design and farmed out the P&L for an ABC or even AAN version, along with a head to take turbos, we'd be more than halfway there. Their muffler is ingenious and works well, nothing to change there except make sure it has a nipple for muffler pressure. And of course, an adjustable airbleed. A square port in the intake would be a bonus, of course, and maybe they could put a little QC on that crank.

About that airbleed. It MUST be adjustable. Our throttles only work via Bernoulli when they're wide open. As the barrel closes, that principle diminishes and a choking effect takes over. The top hole in the barrel provides the suction required to draw fuel into the engine. The bottom hole meters the amount of the mix going in. An ADJUSTABLE airbleed allows you to fine tune this relationship. VA was sent TWO MK1s, all rigged up and throttling perfectly via Dan Rutherford. One was lost, one finally got through. I provided these for free, no strings. VA's comment was, "why would anyone want to throttle a 1/2A " ? At least one and maybe two of the MK2s were sent to Russia by Larry Driskill, all rigged up and throttling perfectly. Then they went and made a throttle with, not only no means to adjust the airbleed, but made it very difficult to do so. But I managed and that one was sent off. Then, FINALLY, they made their square body unit and all was well,,,, for a few months,,, [:@][:'(][:@]

About equitable market. There's a certain number in the sport, RC arena. At least a few, that started on backyard electrics, have started to dabble with engines and 1/2A is a good fit. There's still a number that need WFO engines for roundandround competition and there are still a dedicated group flying free-flight. And a powerful, LIGHT, and good throttling diesel, might also attract the stinky fuel guys.

Might work with a little YouTube exposure by the various disciplines.

Anyway, this dead horse may never get up, unfortunately. [&o]

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Maybe this is the problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7olUW...eature=related

DeviousDave

I don't think you can make a Cyclon/FORA/Profi R/C motor at a price that people are willing to pay. Even if you factor in economies of scale, you still have to take a cut from a distributor, pay for advertisement, gain trust in the modeling community, and then you get to sell your first $110-130 1/2A RC motor.

$130 will buy you a hell of an electric setup that will fly faster than a 1/2A F1J hybrid, won't have starting issues, won't break needle valves or burn out glow plugs, and won't wear pistons a liners out. The good old days were pretty good, but Today is ok too.

Basically what we are fantasizing about here is that EVERYONE flying R/C gets into 1/2A again to make it worthwhile. Reality is that the game has moved on, and people who might buy that kind of product are flying electric now. I'm just greatful that we can still buy hot F1J motors-I give them 10 years tops and they will be gone too.

digital_trucker

Everyone flies .10, .12, and .15 too? Everyone flies with a 4-cylinder inline 4-stroke? That argument doesn't hold up. Have you noticed that every time a crap 1/2A R/C engine stops being made another one pops up? And every time a crap 1/2A R/C engine pops up it's - well - CRAP. There IS a solid market for the kind of 1/2A engine we've all been discussing. The argument that "nobody flies these things much anymore" hasn't stopped PAW from making their lovely little diesels...and right now they essentially have the entire world market cornered in diesels of that size. A manufacturer that made a GOOD 1/2A R/C engine that brings it all together will have the same advantage; a worldwide market all to themselves. It CAN be done and it should be done. If I had the resources I'd do it myself and prove it. Using your argument, why are any engines .61 and smaller being made at all? There are electric solutions readily available that can replace them with all the advantages you've just stated.

I wonder what would happen if all people that continually post comments that "it just isn't profitable, there's no demand, blah-blah-blah" contacted the various established engine manufacturers asking for a good 1/2A R/C engine? Why, I bet we'd get one! Sitting back, waiting and hoping will almost guarantee that you'll just get to do more sitting back waiting and hoping.

Me, I'm gonna whatever I can.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Well, the task is simple then. Convince some multi-million dollar engine mfg that has $5000 worth of salary, benefits, and all the other operating expenses due daily that they need to re-direct their efforts and start making .049 engines.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

I'll build an engine for you guys if 100 of you pay up front $125 so I can tell other paying customers that I have a profitable job to run my machines on. Otherwise either do it yourself or quit crying already.
CP couldn't get 10 people to join him in a group buy a few years back, so I don't think I'll get many takers. Or feel free to cough up the set-up and tooling cost and again I'll spank out any engine you want at T&M.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Vic, if you could produce these engines at $125 and still break even. I'd consider you a genius.
Remember that with this scenario you would be bypassing much of the costs associated with marketing a product, too.

Just think of all the guys who have access to state of the art machine equipment, yet why aren't there any challengers to the $240 Cyclon? Or the $80 sport engines? I fear the answer to that question is quite simple....

Until all the old NIB and good used ebay engines get used up, the dwindling market for these engines will remain pretty diluted.

peterburford

Vic's got it about right.
If anyone's really convinced, they can become a distributor.
They just need to raise the money and approach a manufacturer.
There are plenty with talent to make an engine, but those guys mostly need to pay the mortgage and feed the family.
Peter