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Our First 1/2A Combat Day
We had six pilots and planes out at Georgia Model Aviators to fly combat today. The wind was blowing 20-30mph all day and the sport fliers didn't get their planes out of their vehicles. Except for a giant scale warbird or two we were the only ones who put up flights. We put up a lot of flights.
http://georgiacombat.com/HalfA/LineUp.jpg This photo shows five of the six planes at the field today. The one in the front on the right is the Hat Trick RC "Arrow". It is complete kit with blue foam wings and CNC cut HDPE mounting components. It includes fiberglass spar material, ailerson and tail feathers. It sells for $35 from www.hattrickrc.com The other planes are all prototypes of Lanier RC's new 1/2 Combat bird. The laser cut kit includes white foam cores, an illustrated instruction manual supplemented by text, all wood, coro-plast, and arrowshafts to build the plane. The builder supplies his/her own hardware. The price is $30 direct from Lanier RC. You can call the number listed on their web site www.lanierrc.com Here is the fastest and lightest plane flown today. Billy Wiggins is the builder pilot and this plane weights 14-1/8 ounces, power is a Norvel .061 turning a tornado 5X3. Radar tested at 51mph. http://georgiacombat.com/HalfA/Billy.jpg This is Larry Killingsworths plane. It weighs 17 ounces, spun an APC 5.7X3, and hit 47mph in flight. http://georgiacombat.com/HalfA/LarryMiniShark.jpg We flew five times with 4-6 up each time. Cuts were ample, the wind was driving us crazy, and the action was close in and low. This is an extremely fun class of combat and I think we will see some growth at the club level and on the contest circuit with 1/2As. Best regards, Lou |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Looks nice Lou! What are the restrictions and rules? Maybe they'll stay kinda "open"!
To tell the truth, I ain't all that crazy about the size of the ships you guys are using. Too big and heavy for me. No way a reedie will give you competitive performance and since they are only seven bucks right now, we're giving it a shot with smaller and lighter equipment! |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Patrick,
There are no "rules" just yet. The AMA and RCCA rule books have a 1/2A "Open Class" that have been published for four years. Right now we are experimenting with "limiting" the performance because we want to avoid the event becoming an arms race. The engines in favor at the moment are Norvel and AP .061s, and TeeDee .051s. This is the first time five or more combat veterans got together to give 1/2A try. We are all learning. The longer spans make it easier to grab streamers, as most cuts are made with the wings rather than the props. Here is the performance data I was able to accumulate yesterday: http://georgiacombat.com/HalfA/HalfAflightTesting.jpg |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Lou,
Looks like you all had a good time. One thing though after looking at your numbers I would think those Norvels have alot more in them than the results you guys had. Patrick, No worries Bro with the size. At 15 oz's a good healthy reedie will pull them around well. A good Sure Start can swing a Cox 6x3 at 16,200!!!! LAter, Tim |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Hi Tim,
The Norvels can probably generate more speed on higher pitch. We try for a compromise between straight line performance and ability to sustain speed in continuous turns. We seldom fly a straight line in combat. I would compare it to running in 2nd gear - you have lots of continuous pulling power but not a lot of top end speed. Weight is also a compromise. You want it light enough to fly well but have adequate structure and armor to fly out of the continuous taps and mid-airs that are inevitable in combat. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Lou,
I know that you need to have a happy middle of the road pulling the airframe that you are and with what you are wanting to do with it but I just thought that 24,500 on a 5x2.75 was alittle low...little sucker must have been running rich:D Later, Tim |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Lou, a good prop for the Norvel that's not represented is the Cox "rubber ducky" 5x3. The APC 5.7x3 is probably going to be what your looking for, but it's not nearly as durable as the 5x3.
Tim, I ain't worried. We gotta show these boys how to build light! Lou, at almost 19oz you shoulda be yelling OINK on a hard launch.;) Billy's is pretty close to what you should see. All of them look like they mean business! I expect my CWUS (combat wing ulmer style) to be less than 12oz when complete and ready to fly. I'll be flying with a Surestart reed valve and an APC 5.7x3. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Lou --
Can you give us the basic dimensions of these planes, span, chord, area, LOA, etc. Thanks, |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Good looking combat ships! Just curious how the foam wings hold up in a hard mid-air collision?
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RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
I'M IN!!!
I Like the looks of the Lanier model with the tapered wings - but I have to say I have some reservations. I bought one of their SSC models at Toledo. I should have looked in the box first. I would be tempted to use an E-203 airfoil (just like I do on my SSC's. 2548, and Spec-B wings). And I couldn't consider anything but a Norvel - just for all the things you want from a combat engine - and high RPM isn't necessarily high on the list. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
I'll try to answer the questions and comments:
[ul][*]I do feel like my plane was too heavy. The 2.1 ounce battery, 25 lbs density blue foam, 2 Hitec HS81s and one HS55 all contributed to making it heavy. The 1-1/4" hard aileron stock was also heavy. It could be built to 15-1/2 ounces without too much problem and that would improve its performance. [*] We weren't able to test all the props on hand as we got started with combat and testing went out the window. We do have the Cox black and grey 5X3s to test as well as some other props. The 5X2.75 KT10 is a glass prop and doesn't flex and de-pitch at rpm, in my testing it turns about 25K on the bench. A Graupner 5X2 which is really at 4.75X2 will easily spin up to 27K+. But, it doesn't matter what rpms they turn it matters how fast and how well they pull. We are hoping to keep the event below 50mph. [*] I do not know the full specs on the Lanier planes. I believe they have 48" spans. Regarding airfoils, we have tried Clark YH, SD606, and E203, none has yet proved superior. We think at the Reynolds number range we are operating in the shape or planform of the wing makes more difference than the airfoil. Also angle of attack matters, if the plane has to be flown at positive AOA it is much draggier than one that flies on the wing, which means the area and wing loading may be more important than airfoil. [*] One of the Lanier planes suffered a prop strike, fortuneately behind the spar so it was able to soldier on. TBones from above or below the wing, and prop strikes are going to take out any wing. The Lanier white foam is light, but is flexible. The glass spars and blue foam of the Hat Trick plane make the wing much stronger. The ultimate wing may be one with an EPP leading edge and blue or white foam from the spar back. [/ul] I'm going to get one of the Lanier planes this week, and am also building a flying wing from EPP. Will continue testing and publish data. If you wusses want to fly some combat just tell us when and where. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
It does my heart good to see others flying 1/2A combat! Too bad we live so far apart. With so many planes up at once, there is going to be alot of bumping, some of it accidental, so hauling a little bit of heft will keep you in the game. The challenge is to see just how light and small you think you can go, before you give away too much toughness and span. I am of the school of thought that I would rather have more scoring opportunities with a light ship, and just make sure that I don't run out of planes. What makes this event so interesting is that it is so power limited, that it makes all the other decisions you have to make about design and flying tactics that much more critical. Luck will always be a major factor in combat, but the slower you go, I feel the less luck comes into play.
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RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
CP,
Even in the high winds we had Sunday the planes were flown much closer and lower than combat with larger displacement. We fill up the airspace very quickly with these planes. They are a blast to fly and I suspect because they are quiter, smaller, less intimidating they will encourage others to get involved with combat. It doesn't hurt to have Lanier's head of production being a member of our local combat group. Most of us have been flying competitive combat for five years. We've never been able to practice without tearing up a lot of equipment. 1/2A looks like it will become something we can practice with and not tear up a lot of equipment. The only drawback I see right now is the availability of suitable engines. We have some Norvels and APs but the Norvels have dried up and we are scrounging engines and parts from wherever we can find them. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
The factory is running out, but they have a few. www.norvel.com
Larry D is out of them too, but he still has the VA which is a nice engine. It's a bushing engine and cost is comparable to a TeeDee. Maybe somebody has already tried swinging a bigger prop on it? www.kittingittogether.com/ |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Patrick,
Sorry to say but Larry told me last week that there will be no more VA's either. LAter, Tim |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Patrick & Tim,
I was able to order three Norvel .061 AMEs (two CL and one RC) from Mercury Hobby in South Louisiana yesterday. Jules Demarest the proprietor has an enormous selection of engines and parts and sure enough he had some AMEs'. I think he still has some BIG MIGs. His phone number is 985-892-7204. Hobby People have the AP .061 and it looks like a pretty good engine. We are really trying to keep the VA, Cyclon, Fora, CZ type engines out of it at the moment because their performance is so high. I saw Larry Driskill's prototype 1/2A RC Combat plane fly at the NATs two years ago and it was scary fast. Much faster than I could handle and I suspect there are very few people who could have possibly flown it in combat. It was easily exceeding 100mph and may have been doing 120mph. It was far and away faster than any combat plane at the NATs that year. I am hoping that either Norvel or SIG has spare parts as I want to order some pistons and sleeves. Is there any other source for Norvel parts that ya'll know of? TeeDee .051s may also be a viable option. Are they still in production? |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
The TeeDee .049 is still sold... don't know about produced.:eek: http://www.coxmodels.com/products.asp?dept=7
They've got more big prop power than any Norvel. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
ORIGINAL: Lou Melancon [/ul] If you wusses want to fly some combat just tell us when and where. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Carlson still has mpJet .061 jewels I think
http://carlsonengineimports.net/products/mpjet.shtml |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
How many feet of string and streamer do you use?
Thanks |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Painless,
We ran 10 foot string (two armspans) and 30" denecrepte streamer cut to half width. I actually caught my own streamer on a wingtip. The planes didn't even notice the drap of the streamer. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
ORIGINAL: flyinrog ORIGINAL: Lou Melancon [/ul] If you wusses want to fly some combat just tell us when and where. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
I have found that a good place to score Norvels is at good ol' SWAP meets. Both of mine came home with me from SWAPS. They are both the older models Norvels in fact I think looking at the crankcase one is from when they were called Zeus. One is a plain Big Mig and the other AME ported. Both were $10 or $15 each NIB.
Later, Tim |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Tim!
What is it with you and Bob always scoring the good engine deals. I'm still trying to figure out how to adjust the compression on the best deal I ever got when I was young - a Drone diesel. |
RE: Our First 1/2A Combat Day
Drone Diesel...adjust the compression...that's so funny Raymond!!!!!
Didn't a second version come out with a contra piston on those things? Bob scores much better deals than me I will add!!! Later, Tim |
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