mocars2

I took the stock motor out of my son's Radio Shacks Tsumani boat and replaced it with a 20t Stinger and the thing runs slower. the EC is getting hotter then w/the original motor. I've spayed the motor (brake cleaner - it was clean) and oiled the bearings before putting it in. I must say it's a used motor that I got off Ebay, but I still thought it would be as fast if not about 20% faster then what was in there. Any comments or ideas - were newbies.
thanks

mocars2

I see the Traxxas Blast RTR is using the same 20t Stinger and it's says it goes 25+ MPH is that about right? I would think that the RS boat should go then at least 3/4 of that but more like 6 MPH. Anyone have a Traxxas Blast RTR with the T20 turn Stinger and is it that fast?

MikDee

There are alot of variables here,,, First, the ESC may not be able to handle the 20T stinger, and it maybe sucking up all the battery power rather then send it to the motor, causing it to get hot,,, Second, the RPM of the original motor maybe the same as the Stinger, but you might need a bigger, more agressive prop that the stinger can spin to get the extra speed,,, But, even this would possibly overwork, or overheat the ESC. Also, the Traxxas Blast runs direct drive to the prop,,, does the Tsunami have a gear drive setup on it?,,, usually the small Radio Shack boats have 2 to 1 reduction gearing, This might also be your problem,,, you should be running direct drive on a small boat like this.

mocars2

Mikdee - yep it's running a gear not direct drive. I would guess it's not worth changing to a direct drive would it?

You wrote -
it maybe sucking up all the battery power rather then send it to the motor, causing it to get hot
Would that be because of the stinger or because the ESC - I guess if it's not sending the power to the motor then The ESC robbing all the power and the motor is staving? What do you think?

MikDee

Ok, try this first, make sure the motor pinion gear is not slipping in the gearbox, then make sure there is no binding in the drive system, the prop should turn reasonably easy by hand,,, Next test your ESC, put a fully charged battery in the boat & run it at full throttle, (preferably with the motor in your hand wired thru the boat ESC) then listen to the power delivery to the motor (make a mental note of the sound), then remove the motor leads from the ESC & touch them directly to the battery, the sound of power should be about the same. This is to checkout your ESC,,,

If these tests work reasonably well, the next thing is either get rid of the reduction gear drive, or get a new prop with more pitch (more forward twist),,, theoretically, your boat should do approx. 20mph,,,

Let me know how u make out, before we go into any more detail, Good Luck, Mike

mocars2

MikDee - pinion gear not slipping; prop turns freely; cleaned the motor well esp. the comm - oiled the comm - that helped the prop rotate effortlessly .Ran the boat the morning ran about the same. ESC got real hot and yesterday on calm water the battery came loose twice - where it plugs into the boat - very loose there. AFTER I check you suggestion of running the motor with and w/o the ESC - I'll look at the loose connection and the wires to the ESC - to see if they are loose or frayed - I don't know what else to look at to see if they are bad. Loose connections does produce heat right? I read here somewhere that someone with a hot ESC took 14g wire and made a new harnes to the motor and battery from the ESC and that took care of his heat problem.
So if the motor runs conciderably faster from the battery - that tells me it's either the ESC or the wires to and from the ESC are bad - how do I know which one? I have another exact RS boat and I guess I could swap ESC to see if I had too.

I agree the Stinger 20t should be running at-least 10-20 MPH even with the stock prop - or noticably faster then the original- wish I knew what motors in there from the factory. Well I'll post the finding on the motor speed w and w/o ESC later.
thanks

MikDee

If the battery connection came loose, the motor would stop?,,, simpla as that,,, changing wiring will not help,,, the Electronic Speed Control (ESC) from the factory is only made to handle a certain amount of current, the stinger is probably too much for it, I am amazed it hasn't burnt out already,,, it appears to me that you could probably tow another Tsunami and get the same speed!,,, LOL,,, this is the principle of a tug boat, all that power geared down, and the reason to get rid of the gearbox & run direct drive. OR, get an agressive pitch prop.

To put it another way, if the stock motor & the stinger actually spin close to the same maximum RPM - 20K rpm which is possibly the case, and if you grab the shaft of the stock motor while running, chances are you would be able to stop it, or slow it down considerably,,, But, you would hurt your fingers before u slowed down the Stinger!,,, even if the Stinger ran at less rpm, it has MORE POWER!,,, u hafta put this power to work, as in any boat, u hafta find the right prop,,, so if you don't wanna change props, get rid of the gearbox.

Alot of R/C boats use a servo to turn and open & close a microswitch (small contact switch) as a speed control, to turn the motor on & off. It is commonly found on Kyosho kit boats, and it works well (irregardless of motor size or power, or number of batteries & power, it WORKS!)

mocars2

Well it might be too much for it but a couple of weeks ago I asked if anyone knew what motor was in the RS boat and about 400 and 500 motors exchange. One guy responded that he replaced his cousins motor with the stinger 20t in this RS boat said it helped it and if he'd do it again he might put in a 18t - so one guy got this combo to work and no mention of the high heat from their ESC. So based on that - I go get a Stinger - put it in and get a slow boat that has the ESC allot hotter The ESC with the standard motor got very warm also - allot warmer then the other RS Gamma Ray boat that looks identical - but not as hot now. So I don't think the Stinger would burn up the ESC based on this guys past. I understand the torque part of the original vs the Stinger with the finger example running the same RPM. The stinger is running noticeably slower (hook up in the boat0 then the motor in the Gamma Ray - at least via sound. The ESC even gets warm just turned on w/o the throttle being moved after about 10 minutes too. I'm leaning to wire problems or a bad ESC still - maybe I should try it in the other boat - hate to cut those wires though.

MikDee

The Stinger runs direct drive in the Blast, and that is a heavier boat then yours,,, your best bet would be to run it direct drive,,, I don't know how the stinger mounts in the Tsunami, or what the engine compartment looks like, but u need to find, or make, a mount for the motor & a coupling. The motor shaft is 1/8th" or .125 I am not sure what size propshaft you have, but you might want to try (a piece of fuel tubing over the motor shaft & propshaft fastened on to each by an electrical tie wrap) as a coupling. I cannot guarantee this, it is my own idea, but theoretically it should work. Hey, try it in the bathtub, I will when I get a chance

mocars2

UPDATE - ran the boat to hear the speed of it thru the ESC (actually I think they run a servo in RS boats) then I desodiered the + wire on the motor and did a direct from the battery. The same speed (sound) as thru the ESC So the servo is OK - I guess - still getting hot to the touch after 4 minutes - can't keep your hand on the heat sink for more then 2 seconds. Took the motor out and hooked it to the battery - it screams. Took the OEM motor and hooked it to the battery - didn't seem as fast (of course). But the boat ran faster w/the OEM motor which doesn't make sense to me. Yes the motor gear is an 8 tooth and the shaft gear has 16 teeth.so I guess a 2-1 reduction. I'm sure that either motor w/a direct drive or even a different gear set up should produce a faster speed.Why do you think RS has the reduction gear there? Would a 6 tooth motor gear help? I think your tie wrap idea might cause allot of slipping - might be wrong. Still real concerned about that heat sink heat. More thoughts please and if I haven't said it before - thanks for your time on this

MikDee

Ok, the gear drive is to take the load off the motor & battery, it gives u more run time while keeping heat down, as it multiplies the motor power. Without a gear drive, the original motor would probably burn up in no time. But, the power of the stinger doesn't need a gear drive, but because it draws more amps to run, it is probably overheating the speed control. I doubt there is modified gears or parts available for this toy quality boat,,

By the way, the Hobbico Zig Zag racer uses a rubber tube as a motor to propshaft coupling.

SLOWBOAT-N

You are both on the right track here, but are not quite getting to the solution.
I would bet that the stock motor was a very low turn motor.
The number of turns directly affects how many amps it's going to draw.
A low number of turns will give high rpms, with low amp draw, but have less torque.
A high number of turns will turn the same rpms with high amp draw, giving much more torque.
Think this way more turns = more amp draw= more torque.
Less turns = less amp draw = less torque
That is why the stock motor needs a gear reduction. Not to reduce motor speed, but to increase torque, and keep the amp draw low.
You could put in a different ESC to handle the amp draw, but going through the 2:1 gear box with a 20 turn motor is only going to increase your torque output, not overall speed.
You will have a much better hole shot but will not notice any top end improvement.
You also could change to a higher pitched prop to make better use of all that torque, but have no idea what would fit your boat.
You want lots of speed, the direct drive is the way to go with a 20 turn motor. Has the torque, and will use all those R's.
Anyway your present speed controller, and wiring just will not handle the amps that motor is asking for. The resistance, and motor draw in the system is to great, causing the heating.

MikDee

Mocars, I told u in the beginning, there are alot of variables here, I think you're beating a dead horse, that speed control is probably acting like a big resistor between your motor & the battery. At one time, I have put my Stinger in a 26" Kyosho Jet Arrow boat, direct drive, and with a 6cell 7.2volt batt. pack, & a microswitch, it did about 18mph.

By the way, most cheap electronic speed controls have a high resistance value, the Traxxas XL-1 is an example, as you put a more modified motor on it, your vehicle gets slower!,,, and it gets hotter!,,, I found this out with a 17turn motor & it got even worse with a 19T Chameleon (which is a special motor that is faster then any 17t motor)

You will find once you get a good speed control, your motor or batts. will get hot instead. This will determine how much of a mod motor your vehicle can handle.

If you wish to see a good example of a semi fast 6cell amatuers boat, goto www.offshoreelectrics.com & click on my Jet Arrow video,,, I'll let the video speak for itself!,,, but remember there is a good ESC in this boat, but I burned out the 19t Chameleon on this run because the boat was really too heavy for direct drive. The boat now has 12 cells & a 700 motor.

Finally u could put a microswitch (mini on-off switch) from one of the motor wires between the battery & motor, and get full on/off power, but u would need a servo to work this.

mocars2

MikDee - I've seen that video - LOVE IT - ESP; THE END.

OK here's the latest
1. took stinger 20T - original 8t - 16t gears - ran slower - esc gets hot motor ok

2. got a 12t (32p) and 16t (32p) pinion gears (thought this would be a good compromise between the 2:1 - original - and 1:1 as a direct drive would be); w/the stinger motor 20T- esc still hot, motor ok - slower then original

3. original motor - 12t (32p) and 16t (32p) pinion gears - esc still hot motor very warm, same or slightly fast then original.

ESC is warm - hot but never glitched or blew - which surprises me from what others have said might happen. I'm amazed that with the increased in torque of the stinger and the closer ratio to a 1:1 - that I would have seen a noticeable top end speed. I don't know if a better ESC would produce any Top end increase unless it restricting the draw of the motor (but I can't find what the draw is from the Traxxas). My thinking is now if I want to use the Stinger and a closer ratio to a direct drive to take advantage of the increase in power - I guess the prop is what's going to show some real improvement here. That seems like that's the only thing left to do. I've only invested $17 so far so I'm not out a ton of money but it's now becoming a challenge to get this thing to show some improvement for a small investment. Well any comments on what has been done so far.

thanks MikDee and Slowboat-N so far for your ideas

MikDee

Ok, now that you have 1:1 gearing and it's still slow, I am really suspecting the ESC,,, You really need to eliminate the ESC and install a microswitch (an on/off) switch to operate manually, or with a servo,,, Or, a dfferent ESC like www.castlecreations.com "Pegasus" it can handle the power of your motor, and is very LOW resistance, compact, light, waterproof, & reasonable. It also has BEC circuitry so u don't need 4-AA batts. to power it. I use a Castle "Griffith" in my Jet Arrow to run on 12cells,,, BUT, you need a common standard AM or FM radio reciever to plug the small control wires into, I do not know how u would do this on your boat???,,,

mocars2

MikDee - I agree the ESC is the item here. Now on this boat the esc has the 2 wires from the battery; 2 wires to the motor and 4 wires that go to the other board ( I assume is the receiver but one of those eventually go to the switch ) and the esc has another wire going to the switch. So do you think that I could get away with just getting a different ESC and be done with it since all I'd have to figure out is in the 4 wires going to the receiver which one is the forward, back...splice these in and bing go it should be working - or isn't that simple. I see some F/R Esc say they will hook up with all systems??? The switch has 4 wires - My guess is 2 POS and 2 Neg - 1 set going to the ESC and the other going to the Receiver.

MikDee

I suggested a microswitch because I thought it maybe easier to install, but u would still need a servo to work this switch,,, Ok now, every ESC has 2wires for the battery & 2 wires for the motor, BUT they also have 3 tiny wires attached to a tiny plug, that plugs into a (normal) reciever for control,,, these tiny wires are positive (red), negative (black), & control (white), these are the common colors of a Futaba radio,,, Hitec, Airtronics, J&R, radio's use different colors,,, You would probably have to cut off the tiny plug & determine where to attach these tiny wires to your circuitry to make the control work,,, This is all I know, you are on your own from here. One thing to remember, try to get a speed control that is low resistance, look at the specs, your better brands are what you want, look for .00X resistance, not .0XX ,,, again, check out the resistance on the castle controls, u will get the idea,,,

gulfstreamI

The stock RS Gamma Ray/ Tsunami motor is a 23 turn, single 540 type, 6 Volt motor. It also uses a built in "fan" & aluminum heatsink to help dissipate the heat build-up in the motor.

gulfstreamI

mocars,

I upgraded the prop on my RS boat. With the stock prop (X-37) I'd say the boat's speed is 6 - 8 MPH!
The new prop (smaller than stock) I used is a slightly agressive pitch X-35 plastic prop. I had to replace (cut) half the original stainless steel prop shaft.
I used the following materials for the upgrade:
1) 4 mm brass rod
2) 4 mm drive joint by Kyosho, part# 94901-4
3) 4 mm Drivedog & collet by ABC Hobby, part# 55015
4) X-35 plastic prop ( unknown brand ) Cost: $ 1.69
The boat now runs at about 8-10 MPH, not much because I'm still using my stock motor.

GulfstreamI

gulfstreamI

mocars,

This is the new motor that I installed on my RS boat. The motor to the left was our boat's stock 540 motor. The Traxxas Titan 14.4 volt motor gave this boat that extra speed, but you now have to upgrade to a better ESC or you can watercool the stock ESC.

Here's a pic of the boat's run with that motor installed.

GulfstreamI

mocars2

GulfstreamI - 1st I've tried to change the ESC and there is no hook up for the (normal) 3 wire plugs - the RS (last years memory so I might be wrong) had 4 or 5 wires besides the 2 for the battery and 2 for the motor. I tried jumping the 3 to the 4 in all combos and I never got it to work.

You'll have to run 2 7.2 batteries - if so where are you putting them. I don't see any room for 2. and that RS ESC can't handle that can it - you must have pulled that ESC and board and heat sink - OR HAVEN'T YOU DONE THISYET???

gulfstreamI

mocars,

The ESC board has four small wires with plugs leading to the receiver board. Two of those wires are used to ( the - & + )power up the receiver board, sort of a B.E.C. equivalent (battery eliminator circuit). The other two wires are used to control the ESC's speed. I have to look back at my notes to give you the correct color code.
The battery that you can use in that tight compartment will have to be a "brick type" pattern to get the 8 cell 9.6 volts. The current set up of 6 cell, 7.2 volts is a "stick style" sports pack. I've never tried using 14 volts on this boat, I seriously think this is the maximum power (9.6 volts) that this boat's ESC can handle.
You also have to ditch that battery cover to fit those extra cells. Water cooling the ESC at this point is a Must!

GulfstreamI

mocars2

gulfstreamI - I got your emails thanks - post some of that info on here for others

gulfstreamI

Here's some pic's of that direct drive system I was telling you VS. the gear drive system.

Also some pics of the Nikko's brass construction prop shaft tube version VS. the R.S. Tsunami/Gamma Ray plastic/teflon version.

gulfstreamI

Here' a few more pics of the mods I made to include water cooling in this boat.

pic# 1 is the 5/32 diameter brass tubing I soldered on the Traxxas Titan's 550 motor terminals. This will help keep the heat level down in this motor's brushes. Silicone tubes to carry the water coolant to be installed next.

pic# 2 is the bottom view of the 5/32 diameter brass water cooling pick up tube.

pic# 3 is another view of the water cooling pick up tube.

pic# 4 is the water cooling exit tube.