Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

I've decided to build a flat foam 6mm Depron electric 3D machine. I have everything comming for a 3s 1500 Himax 2015 - 5400 brushless setup plane build. I have the plans for the 3DX. Being a bit excentric, I want to use the 3DX tecniques but scale a Flip 3D for this model. At 66% the foam Flip will have a 39" wing span. I see the 3DX plans call for the wing and stab to be on the prop/plane centerline. When scale locations are measured, the center for the wing and stab for the scale Flip would be below the centerline by 1 1/8" and 15/16" respectively. I am not necessarily going for a complete scale replica but a close resemblance that will fly the best. I will start building this probably on monday.

My question is this. Should I leave the wing and stab on their scale centers or would there be a performance advantage to putting these on the plane centerline? Any one out there tried to put the wings below or above the centerline for a flat foam 3D plane? What were your results compared to centerline mounting.?

Thanks.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

I would Really like plans for this, I fly a lot of electrics and I have a Flip 3D powered by an YS 45, I love it!

Josh

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Josh,

I am an old school plans draftsman. ie.. I don't have a competent CAD program nor the ability to PDF them in tiled format. I drew them on the back of some Christmas wrapping paper taped to my bench with my Flip centerlined and on the stand for measurements. Why Christmas wrap? That's what I had. I would love to get these plans out because I love my Flip also. It runs on a Saito 100. Awesome flying plane. Check it out here if you want.
[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1391453/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#1391453[/link]

The Foamie is undergoing some modification and will resemble a Flip pretty closely. The tail surfaces have to grow a bit vs the wing when you scale down and I decided to give it a clipped tip type treatment for the main wing and keep the ailerons tight to the fuse. It might get some 90 degree fuse side rails as well which will bring the ailerons back out. The Fuse looks suprisingly good in template form. Wing and tail look good on paper.

The big hold up right now is material and the wing location question. I was on line and found backyardfoamies.com. Great site by the way. There are two free plans there for an Edge and an SU31 that both have the wing and stab off of the thrust center line. One high and one low. The Flip's scale would have both low. I have never built a flat foam electric before so I don't know what wing and stab location is best for performance. I now have a Fuse template with the scale location, thrust line location and a compromise location laid out. I was hoping someone would have a definitive answer because Depron and long enough carbon spars are hard to get right now.

If you have any experience with this, I would love some input. Everything should be here for full construction of the prototype next weekend. I'll post pics as I go. I will probably go with the compromise wing location unless someone with experience advises otherwise.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Well, I am still waiting on my Depron. They must be really swamped. I got an email today with tracking numbers though so I should be able to start soon. Here is the first draft of templates for the Foam Flip. I still need to make some adjustments but it looks pretty close except for some styling of ailerons and tail feathers.

I have decided to put both wing and stab on the thrust center line and add the side rails just above. Should strengthen the fuse quite a bit. Some say that carbon is not needed if this is done. I think I will use carbon on the first prototype though. Calculations indicate a 12 Oz. AUW with four servos, six channels and landing gear. Except for glue. Gota use it sparingly.

Let me know what you thiink

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Here are some pics of the construction of my Flat Foam Flip 3D.

1. Finalized wing template with the foam cut out underneath.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Wing spars epoxied in place.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Fuselage with spar in place

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Wing and rear stab with elevators in color scheme.
(I know the carbon spar should have been on the bottom)

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Fuse in color scheme and 90 degree side additions ready to go. Starting to look like a convincing Flip profile even in this scheme.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Wing and Fuse being attached together More tommorrow.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Errol thanks for the detailed thread. Your doing a nice job there! Was the 12oz. weight calculation with batteries? I still don't know why are coming out heavy. Could you weigh yoir airframe ony when you have it put together? I'm sure that adding the LE CF is effective but I wonder about the trade off. Also for what it's worth these flat foamies are pretty forgiving to design changes and they pretty much are dependent on wing loading and power. Big ailerons and huge throws on everything are important too.
I like you real Flip 3D. I would have thought a Saito 100 on 30% Heli fuel would rip the wings off it but seems to work pretty well. Do you fly the plane slow on the 14x3 prop? One of my pattern buddy's let's me fly his Flip on an OS 46. It's even pretty awesome with that power plant. I'm looking to get one myself. I have an Irvine 53 ready to go but I may have to rethink that based on what your saying. Right now my outragous plane is a Weston Cougar 2000 with the Irvine but I think the Flip is even better.
Good post on your foamie, thanks. Keep us posted. Mike

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Mike,

Thanks for the complements.
My calculated weight was AUW except epoxy weight with 3s 1500 Kokam and four Bluebird BMS-306 on 6 channel GWS and landing gear. It did not include the side supports or their epoxy. I am having some trouble figuring out a Pull/Pull for the elevator with them in place though and may fly it first without them or the landing gear. I am stuck a bit now waiting for the electronics. When I get the control surfaces on I will post a pic of their throws and size.

I plan to weigh it with just the bare airframe and then AUW. The front carbon is around 1/4 Oz. We will see if it is more benefit or deficite.

Sun's out so, I am going to fly my full size Flip right now. The plane is awsome even with a .46 but is astonishing with the Saito. I run a 16 x 4 prop and if I were to do a wall at full speed with the 15 x 6, there might be some wing issues. Although it will parachute at full downline idle speed without a problem. With this set up I fly pretty slow and usually only find full throttle on a long upline or for a quick control blip. The 16 x 4 is not that fast but has a lot of thrust. A lot of people say the West 50 is great for this plane in stock form. With the Saito and the covering though, mine is probably 3/4 pound heavier than obtainable. Flies like a feather still at that.

Thanks for all your help Mike.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Gotta dump some stuff to get a real Flip 3D. Right now I have a half completed 31% CA Extra 300L. I can't get past my interest in these crazy lil E planes and 40 size 3D IC planes. Plus I fly 2 meter pattern in the Masters class. I need to find a focus. Ha ha. Mike

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Mike,
You are what we cal a Master of all trades. If you had focus, you would probably bore yourself with it. LOL. Here are some more pics of this project. The system seems to only be letting me post one per post.

The Rear Stab being glued.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Heres one with all the surfaces hinged. I went ahead and used the cheap tape method.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Heres one of the top view. That spar really should have been on the bottom. Maybe it gives it more support in the wall. Yeah, thththaaats the ticket.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

This one shows the available deflection. Pretty good. Just about like the full size plane.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

And the rudder deflection. The tape is just holding them at unstressed hinge maximum.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

This one shows the bottom scheme and the compromise I had to make with the rudder. With the rear stab moved up from scale, I had to use a bit of vert stab so the Flip's original full flying rudder wouldn't hit the elevator at full up and either rudder deflection direction. Darn.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Here is the family portrait. Big brother and little brother. I think it makes a pretty close flip iimpersonation. I think I can see the family resemblence. Like when you were the youngest of a number of siblings that caused trouble in school and the teacher comes up and says, "Your'e one of those Flip boys aren't you. I've got my eye on you".

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Wow that looks fantastic! Great job so far. Please keep us posted on the progress. Amy idea of when you'll be able to test fly it? Mike

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

Thanks Mike,
After seeing your 3DX, that means a lot to me.

I was expecting to have all the electronics except the charger in the mail today when I got home from flying. No USPS Package. I hope to get it Monday and the charger on Tuesday. I could fly it as early as, however long it takes to charge a 3s 1500 after mail on Tuesday. I really need to find a good Oz. or gram scale close by that I can use to weigh it at different stages of construction from here out. If I don't do it as I go I will probably not take it appart and do it later.

When you ask about airframe weight, do you include or exclude control surface linkages and horns? I was going to put the motor mount block on and no horns or linkage. I don't want to mount the block though until I can test fit it and the motor together with the airframe.

Also, how much right thrust do you think is a good amount. I have a block with 3 degrees ready to go but could easily make one with any reasonable amount.

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

I recently bought 2 digital scales, a small grams scale and a 30lb. postal scale on Ebay. I really thought I needed one to improve my building skills. There is a guy on Ebay that sells them pretty cheap and they work very well.
I have around 3 degrees right thrust but I'm not even sure about that number. The weather here in Chicago has been bitterly cold for so long I havn't been able to test fly and get a feel for the small details on the planes that would make them fly better.
What charger did you get and if it runs only on 12 volts and you need a ac/dc convertor let me know? There's a guy that sold me one for around $20 and it works very well.
Thanks, Mike

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

I got all of my electronics except for servos from [link=http://www.clayshobbies.com/index.htm]Clay,s Hobbies[/link]. I knew nothing about the stuff when I started looking and Clay went out of his way to help me throughout my learning process and order. I may have paid a little more for some things but less for others. The motor/controler package was the best price I could find anywhere. Clayton was extremely helpful so I think if I could have goten anything for less, it wouldn't have had as much value as the customer service I enjoyed. I ended up paying the premium for the Kokam name and got the Kokam 402 charger. I have a power supply and a 12 volt field box already so it shouldn't be a problem. The charger was way more than $20.00. Were you talking about a charger for 3s1p for $20.00 or the power supply? I built my power supply to have both 5 and 12 volts for some business stuff last year.

I guess I will run 3 degrees right thrust first and see how that goes. As far as scales go, I'm still at a loss and I know I won't wait for one to show up by mail to weigh it.

Errol

RE: Scale Flat Foam Flip 3D
 

I have a Triton charger $129 but the 12V Ac convertor I picked up was only $20 and works great. I bought my stuff from all over the US. I'm lucky too that we have 2 great hobby shops close by that are very well stocked and Maxx Products is 10 miles away too. Mike