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Rule #9 for '04

Old 11-09-2003, 12:53 PM
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T28pilot
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Default Rule #9 for '04

I think the pic's and videos should be posted.
Example:

[link=http://www.mw3d.com/albums/album06/Save3D01.wmv]Dont watch it if you agree with rule #9[/link]
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Old 11-09-2003, 01:15 PM
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Zpat
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

This will probably open a new can of worms, but how many times have we seen these large aircraft experience problems while flying at these unusual attitudes? Usually the pilot is seasoned and has a grasp of what his craft will and will not do.

Where as the spad flyer, who generally has less experience, has decided this type of flying is what he wants to do and he doesn't care how many times his indestructible plastic airplane falls out of the air.

This is just a personal observation.
Old 11-09-2003, 01:20 PM
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Flyfalcons
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

That's how I learned - flying a SPAD down low and crashing the heck out of it. Know what? Who cares about the plane - it was safe! Rules are written for safety, not to save airplanes.
Old 11-09-2003, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

Most rules are for learners as they otherwise will not know of the danger. I.E. no landing downwind, no flying over the pits, no flying behind the pitts etc. The tail touching rule is madness for two main reasons, firstly no learner could even attempt to do a tail touch as youve got to be able to hover first !! hence it can only be attempted by people more than caperble of recovering given any incident, secondly the recovery is the SAFEST manourver possible (even a learner could do it) throttle down it lands, it's already near the ground with no speed - where can it quickly get too? Do wind surfers have a rule - no summersaults ?, do hanglders have a rule no summersaults, do bmx riders have a rule no backflips ?,. Of course not because they can only be done by very experienced persons, why is it this hobby is so OBSSESED with rules??? , i guess it's cos of the out of touch, can't do wannerbies in power.
Old 11-09-2003, 07:19 PM
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The_Matrix
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

I have read several threads on this subject in RCU over the last couple of weeks, and have heard alot of point of views on the subject . Like most that have read the NEW rules, I do not agree with them. However, you must read all the information before getting so overwhelmed about changes that have been made. You have to think about what reasons such rules are made, and I do not feel it is for the reason a few say, !QUOT! Made by an individual that cannot perform such maneuvers, so does not want others to do it!QUOT!. I seriously hope and do not think this is the case. That is simply childish. What I have not heard anyone say is that the reason for rule changes is solely due to the requirements of the insurance companies AMA uses to cover each and every one of us. If you do not agree with the rule, fine, don't follow it. What is gonna Happen? Get booted out your club? Goto AMA Jail? Booted out of AMA? NO, nothing unless something goes wrong. The only thing AMA says about not following the rules is what? !QUOT! I understand that my failure to comply with the safety code may endanger my insurance coverage.!QUOT! Do you want your equipment to be covered if it is stolen? Do you wish damages to be covered if your flying and hit someone's property or God forbid them? You do? Fine, then let AMA do their job, and set the rules required by the insurance companies that gives us that coverage. If you don't wish to be covered, drop your AMA membership, fly on your own, and pay for any damages or losses you accrue out of your own pocket. Just my 2 cents.
Old 11-09-2003, 08:14 PM
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JohnVH
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Default bla bla bla

Great vid!!
Old 11-09-2003, 09:05 PM
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Mike Rojas
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Default RE: bla bla bla

IMHO,even more dangerous than the SPAD pilot is the old timer with his .049 powered 100" span 45 degree dihedral wax paper covered Cub looking rudder only Attack radioed model trying to fly,or better yet land it!! I agree that most people that are "DOD" have lots of ability to do that stuff safely.However don't forget that equipment can fail at any time for any reason.At least if it fails up high you have a chance to warn onlookers.I love 3D and spend lots of time DOD,but I can see the other side.There should be some kind of annual test to determine if you are still competent to fly.No Offense old timers,I hope to be one myself some day.But let's face it,sometimes you just need to know "when to say when".
JMO,Mike
BTW I also have several SPADS
Old 11-09-2003, 09:31 PM
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DrDeath
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Default RE: bla bla bla

T28Pilot,

Who was the pilot at the controls? Pretty good one from the looks of the vid. Great Vid

Lee
Old 11-09-2003, 09:32 PM
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lomcevek1
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

You have to think about what reasons such rules are made,
Nobody knows who it is aimed at. Giant 3D fliers, Profile 3Der's, parkflyers, indoor. I have heard the helicopter guys say it is against them (ie no more rotor touching,inverted grass trimming). Where is the danger/percieved danger coming from??

I never thought I would say this but the FAA has it right. If they want to make or change a rule they have to put out an NPRM (Notice of Proposed Rulemaking) and then send it out for public opinion and suggestion.

If the AMA could do this, then with the input of the modelers a set of rules could be created that make sense and work for all those involved.
Old 11-09-2003, 11:10 PM
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southern_touch9
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

I have a Spad and I touch the tail with it. I also touch the tail with any other 3D model I have and plan to do the same with my big sukhoi as soon as it gets going, does that make me dangerous? I dont think so
Old 11-10-2003, 12:59 AM
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JohnVH
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

Here is some rule 9 for ya!

OOOPS

Not again..
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Old 11-10-2003, 11:52 AM
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kunte
 
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Default RE: Rule #9 for '04

THERE ARE RULES < AND THERE ARE RULES< the point is we all know its not dangerous but the people who can't do it don't appreciate it. Its alien, unnatural, it's so hard to do for them, it's percieved were pushing our ability when actually its VERY easy to do (unless its blowing a gale of course) DONT< DONT even run the risk of these ignorant silly rules being brought in as what will be the next ignorant silly rule. Even worse is 3D is without doubt the safest type of flying, let's make suire it's percieved that way then were all on the up, not on the way down. THOSE THAT DON'T STICK TOGETHER (THERES ALLWAYS ONE OR 2) WILL REGRET IT. ANGLERS IN THE U.K. ARE REGRETTING NOT STICKING TOGETHER TO SUPPORT FIELD SPORTS, NOW THEY ARE BEING BANNED !!!!!!! THATS THE WAY THIS WEAK SICK WORLD WORKS NOW, TOO MANY -'IT WONT EFFECT ME SO I DO NOTHING PEOPLE'., SILLY, IGNORANT RULES WILL SAY THE WRONG THING ABOUT 3D.
Old 11-10-2003, 12:04 PM
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T28pilot
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Default RE: bla bla bla

ORIGINAL: DrDeath

T28Pilot,

Who was the pilot at the controls?

Lee

Wayne Geffon
Old 11-11-2003, 02:14 AM
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3D-kid330
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Default RE: bla bla bla

I think that rule is aimed at everything. WHAT THE HECK WERE THEY THINKING?
Old 11-11-2003, 02:55 AM
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Default RE: bla bla bla

This ''rule 9'' is ridiculous! I 3D. I touch the tail. I tork roll over the runway. I do everything I can get From my airplanes. And I am 11 years old. Does that make me dangerous? NO WAY! Being young or threedeeing (In my case both) does not necessarily make anyone dangerous as long as they have the skill for what they want to do. I fly airplanes responsibly, same with my heli. If they outlaw 3D, what will we fly and how? No low passes? No 3D?!!! Might get boring after a while.[&o] After all, what's more dangerous, an out of control beginner veering over the pits[X(], or 3D'ers like us tapping the tail gently on the runway[8D]? Can we do anything about this? I sure hope so!!

3D-kid330


[8D]JR radios are the ONLY way to fly!
Old 11-11-2003, 07:33 AM
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Doug Cronkhite
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Default RE: bla bla bla

I'm still trying to figure out why some of you feel this is outlawing 3D flight? Unless of course the only thing 3D you can do is touch the rudder on the runway. There is a lot more to 3D than just this one small aspect. Rule #9 prohibits more than just tail touching. It prohibits heli pilots from doing inverted rotor head touches, fun fly types from doing inverted rudder touches (I've seen this done with $4500 F3A airplanes coming right at the crowd line by the current F3A world champion, not safe!), as well as rudder touches in a hover and so forth. It ALSO prohibits the grabbing of aircraft in flight.

This is a broad spectrum ruling and NOT directed solely at the 3D pilot. Ever seen what happens when a heli rotor blade mount lets go? I have. Forget what happens to the heli for a second and think about the energy involved with that blade that was just turning some 1700rpm and is now an unguided missile. Also remember that no matter how much control you think you have, there are just some things that are out of your hands. Mike Caglia, while practicing for the 2002 TOC had his 42% Extra 260 go into hold while in a low hover. The airplane came at him, he ducked as the airplane went over his head, and through the pits at our local field at LESS THAN 10' high. Fortunately this was during the week and nobody was there. On a normal weekend, the pits would be full.

There are far too many fields out there where the 3D crowd and the 'circles' crowd get along just fine. All it takes is a little communication beforehand, and respect for the other pilots. Most of you are attacking this from the wrong direction. Saying this ruling was created out a jealousy makes you look arrogant and foolish.
Old 11-11-2003, 08:12 AM
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Cactus.
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Default RE: bla bla bla

i'm surprised a heli flys at all when the rotors are that close to the deck, but inverted button touch! thats mental, the blades go miles when they let go! at least that close to the floor they should hit quick and take some engery out and the heli can't go anywhere once it's hit

these cases of hangs going wrong everyone is talking about large scale, which should be subject to diffrent rules anyway, and indoor another set of rules from sport ic sizes.

in the case abouve however the plane went into fail safe, BAN FAIL SAFE HOLD SETTING!!!!! first the engine is meant to cut when in fail safe, not hold! so it should have fallen out, and hit the floor, not flown into the pits, so theres your problem, not the hover it's self. second, if it had been higher up and gone into hold god knows where it could have gone at what speed. at least in the hover it was slow enough for him to duck.
if anything, you proved the safety of hanging in that case.


"There are far too many fields out there where the 3D crowd and the 'circles' crowd get along just fine."

is this a bad thing? should we go and abuse the circle flyers?[sm=confused.gif][:-][X(]
Old 11-11-2003, 11:22 AM
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Doug Cronkhite
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Default RE: bla bla bla

ORIGINAL: phillybaby

"There are far too many fields out there where the 3D crowd and the 'circles' crowd get along just fine."

is this a bad thing? should we go and abuse the circle flyers?[sm=confused.gif][:-][X(]
No not a bad thing.. just misinterpreted what I meant, and I probably could have worded it differently. There are a lot of fields out there where everyone flies happily and there is no problems. It just takes communication.
Old 11-11-2003, 12:23 PM
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Default RE: bla bla bla

Doug, you seem to have some insight into rule #9 that many of us don't.

I was never contacted by the AMA, Dave Brown, or the EC asking my input on #9.

It just showed up.

I wish I had a crystal ball that would tell me what was going to be banned next. Are you positve that #9 as it stands will be where it ends?? I'm not.

I think this is why the "Ban 3D" speculation gets started. Dave Brown stated that there had been no record of claims due to tail touching, but it was banned. Seems a bit arbitrary, who's to say what they will decide needs to be banned next??

Let them gain momentum with this rule, and they can just run with it. I don't know where it will stop, but I'd be pretty surprised if #9 as it stands is the last we hear of it.
Old 11-11-2003, 12:30 PM
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Cactus.
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Default RE: bla bla bla

phew, thought you had something against differeent aspects sharing the same field then
might be problems tho when you've got LOADS of flyers all wanteing to fly, regardless of what sky they want.
here it's ok, we all like to talk shop as much as we like to fly. in a day i rarely get over 7-8 flights on all my planes there put together
Old 11-12-2003, 12:42 AM
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Default RE: bla bla bla

As an AMA show team memeber we had planned a launch and retrieve by hand routine for next years show schedule. Our mission is to demonstrate all aspects of rc flight including many different types of airplanes and flying styles including extream 3d. Another goal is to bring new people to this great hobby and bring back old modelers who have lost interest. We do this by showing what is possible with todays equipment and skill. Much of what we do is driven by the crowd, they want combat and tail touching. In my oppinion this is safe enough in a controlled environment with callers and spotters. You don't outlaw car races, control line speed, etc you simply find a way to keep it safe by erecting a fence or comming up with some other solution. I still hope that exceptions can be made for exhibition/show flying in controlled environments. A few people think we are setting a bad example or trying to promote dangerous flying. Everybody is hovering now, I would like to show spectators how it can be fun and safe.
Old 11-12-2003, 04:55 AM
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Default RE: bla bla bla

I still hope that exceptions can be made for exhibition/show flying in controlled environments
doesn't that mean the only ones that can currently, can only do it at shows ( where because of larger crowds those exploding rudders are likely to kill more people ) but then that would mean no one is allowed to train to do this, also the display pilots can not practice this life threatening show of skill. as soon as the current tail touchers retire that skill has gone forever.
besides, if people see you doing it at shows they are gonna go out and try it at the local field thinking it's ok. Better that a few people do it at a club so when newbies come along wanting to have a try with their LA40 Cub more experienced members can show them the way, safely.

the safety of 3D comes from practice and doing things slowly in stages, not by going to a show and jumping right to the hard stuff when you get back.


insert tongue in cheek where required
Old 11-16-2003, 08:03 PM
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Jeff Pfeifer
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Default RE: bla bla bla

Well the rule says that no other part of the aircraft sould touch the ground while in fligh than the landing gear, so technically a tail wheel is a landing gear, so if you want to do "tail touching" then put a extra long tail wheel on the plane that just extends past the rudder by about 1"! Still touch the ground in a hover, but on the landing gear!!!! lol
Old 11-16-2003, 08:37 PM
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Default RE: bla bla bla

ORIGINAL: Jeff Pfeifer

Well the rule says that no other part of the aircraft sould touch the ground while in fligh than the landing gear, so technically a tail wheel is a landing gear, so if you want to do !QUOT!tail touching!QUOT! then put a extra long tail wheel on the plane that just extends past the rudder by about 1!QUOT!! Still touch the ground in a hover, but on the landing gear!!!! lol
That would work if in fact you had read the rule correctly. Here is the rule word for word.

9) Under no circumstances may a pilot or other person touch a powered model in flight; nor should any part of the model other than the landing gear, intentionally touch the ground, except while landing.

If you are torque rolling, you are not landing, hence you are in violation of the rule. I wouldn't want to base my defense around trying to prove that the AMA should pay for any litigation in an accident situation because my torque roll was actually a landing attempt. A very weak argument to be sure. A harrier, well, there might be some chance in that argument
Old 11-16-2003, 09:33 PM
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Default RE: bla bla bla

Here is my thought get yourself a piece of the 1/8inch luan door skin, cut to a suitable size as in what your abilities let you hover over. Cut some pieces of 2x4 and put on the ends cover it with some carpet or such an you have a tail touching table. it is not the ground and the rule says the ground. This will leave you 3 1/2 inches or so above the ground and will let the door skin flex some so it is not as hard on the rudder. I am not going to let them stop the fun. Again before people reply I have read the rule and this is not against the rules remember there is always a way around the rules and I will find it.

Steve

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