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Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

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Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

Old 07-21-2003, 04:01 AM
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YNOT
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

I know, just what we need, another Funtana thread, however I noticed a few things I did not see in other threads.

I have flown 2 Funtana, mine and another guys. With both of them, I noticed them both to have the same bad habits. His was nose heavy and control deflections were toward the low side and mine being a more tail heavy and some serious deflection.

Both plane were very pitch sensitive on the elevator and both would drop a wing with just elevator, snap. I looked though some of the other threads and did not see this mentioned. If it was only mine, I would think it was too tail heavy/too much deflection, however the nose heavy one with much less deflection flew the same way. Almost seems like the incidence is off or the motor thrust is off.

Any thoughts on this?

Mine is balanced about 6 inch's back and flys inverted with no elevator input. This is how I set up all my planes and have never had a plane so pitch sensitive like the Funtana.

I have been flyn a Flip since they were introduced and the Funtana is a different flying airplane. Does not seem to be as hard core 3D as the Flip is, however flys just like a big scale aerobatic plane.

Hight points:

Roll Rate-WOO HOO!!!!! MAN does this thing roll and roll fast. Fastest rolling plane I have every flown and I like it.

Does a great harrier with little to no wing rock.

I am flying it with a Irvine 53 and it has plenty of power. I didn't have the right prop for hovering, however it hovers well.

4 hours of time to remove the stickers on the wing and tail. They came off easy with the help of the heat gun, however the glue left on the wing, thats another story. Goo-Gone works well.
Old 07-21-2003, 04:12 AM
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dirtdr
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

i had the same problem with the plane snapping with lots of elevator..
am going to try playing with flapperon/ spoileron mix...

what about the rudder... i find i can barely hold a knife-edge with 35 degree deflection.. is my servo not enough (JR 537)
Old 07-21-2003, 11:21 AM
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George E.
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

My funtana balances like YNOT's and I have 45 degrees on the elevator and rudder and 30 degrees on the ailerons.

My findings after 7 flights:

NO snapping with full UP elevator, and not pitch sensitive. I can bang on the elevator and the wings stay level.

The plane will climb in KE flight but a KE loop is very doubtful.

I can't get a waterfall out of mine, even with spoilerons. The plane either does a lazy loop or drops a wing.

ROCK SOLID wings during elevator/harrier though.

The plane flys very true. Nice point rolls and slow rolls. No bad habbits that need to be mixed out.
Old 07-21-2003, 11:53 AM
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Jaco
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

I have one with a YS63, cg is around 6". It's laterally balanced and will snap at full low rate. Great elevators, ok blenders, harrier w/spoilers there is major wing rock. Won't waterfall and the rudder is weak. I have a flip 3d and profile planes that will 3d better.
Old 07-21-2003, 12:45 PM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

YNOT: Sorry I can't help you yet, I just got my first two flights in yesterday. I still am breaking in the Saito 72 and am on low rates till I get used to the plane. This is my first aerobatic plane and will need to learn all of the moves. Although in vertical, it just keeps climbing. Rolls, loops, hammerheads, (basic moves) are much easier with this plane.

One thing I would check. I have this in another thread, so if you read it, I apologize. Check the fitting in the wing saddle, mine and another guy in my club flew together yesterday and we both have the problem with the wing being somewhat loose. I may add saddle tape, or add a some fiberglass to the wing dowels for a tighter fit. As is the wing rocks back an forth on those dowels.
Old 07-21-2003, 01:40 PM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

Tony,

I have the exact same flight characteristics as you. I've mentioned it in another thread... like yours, mine flies hands-off inverted. But when it's time to bring it down - you're in for what could be a wild ride. VERY PITCH SENSITIVE... My CG is about 5 5/8" back (not exact, just did the 'ol finger CG test).

Not sure how to cure it but I've already been thru a couple Zingers. My Flip doesn't have this characteristic.

It harriers better than the Flip, tho!
Old 07-21-2003, 01:49 PM
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3D'nPat
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

Both plane were very pitch sensitive on the elevator and both would drop a wing with just elevator, snap. I looked though some of the other threads and did not see this mentioned. If it was only mine, I would think it was too tail heavy/too much deflection, however the nose heavy one with much less deflection flew the same way. Almost seems like the incidence is off or the motor thrust is off.
There is an aerodynamic imbalance in the wing design. The center of lift at the root is 29.4% of the cord and the tip is 21% This makes pitch hipper sensitive. It's a approach taken in large scale aerobat designs to help induce 3D transitions. It works Great in large scale 3D planes like the Aeroworks 330L and the Edge series of aircraft which I've studied very closely. My belief is that Sebastiano Silvestri, The designer of the funtana anticipated the pitch sensitivity which could cause the tapered wing to tip stall easy and tried to counter it with a 0% thickness taper, making the wing tips less likely to tip stall. Well, it almost works:-) But The pitch sensitively remains. You wouldn't want to fly this planes if it had the same % thickness at the tip and root! It would be a nightmare to fly. You will see how well the wing dose work when you perform maneuvers like the "Parachute" or the "Wall" With the CG 6'' or 35% of the chord and 40-45Deg. I do this w/o tip-stall or snaps Airplane set-ups are the biggest key.

One thing I haven't herd on here is the massive negative pitch couple with the rudder. Theres no excuse for that, just pore engineering:-( I found after doing some math that the H9 funtana could be made to fly better with a few small changes. I plan on redesigning this plane over the winter because I feel the plane has even more potently to be smoother, more capable, more stable, and to be a zero coupled airplane.

Hope everyone continuse to have fun with there 3D Planes.
It's almost too much fun:-) Take care and Happy flying.
Old 07-21-2003, 09:33 PM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

My Funtana is very pitch sensitive, but I have it under control with dual-rates and lots of expo. It now flies very smooth....just right for my taste.
I haven't noticed any slop with the fit of my wing. In fact, I think it's an excellent fit! There is absolutely no movement of the wing once it's bolted on. But I seem to think my plane is the exception in this area.
One thing I didn't like about this plane is how it just floats forever on landing. My Saito 72 is still breaking in and it doesn't yet like to idle down slow enough and reliably enough for me to make smooth landings. My solution for this has been to setup flaperons so that both ailerons deflect upwards about 1/2". I can now land this plane with a few clicks of throttle on rather than waiting for it to bleed off enough speed and plop in.
Another thing I noticed on mine, is that it needed quite a bit more right thrust. a couple washers behind the engine mount helped the up-lines quite a bit.
Harriers seem fairly stable to me...there's some wing-rock, but it's definitely managable.
Waterfalls do seem weak to me. The first half of the flip is good, but it acts like it really doesn't want to pull out of the bottom of the flip. I suspect my servos are a bit weak here and contributing to the problem. I only have Hitec 311's in it now....those were all I could find at the LHS's around here when I put it together.
This thing does spin like crazy though! I've never seen such a fast spin!! It almost scares me. I'm afraid the wing will shred one of these times.
I haven't really done much on KE yet....the couple times I did try it though, it seemed like it wanted to pull to the canopy pretty hard.
I also haven't been very successful hovering this plane, but I think that has more to do with my lack of flying skill than any problem with the plane.
But overall....the Funtana is awesome!!
Old 07-21-2003, 10:15 PM
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dorjes
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

YS .63 on mine. Wing dowels on mine after a gallon of fuel have definitely wallowed out, even with CA treatment. Added carbon fiber mat reinforcement on the "trough " where the carbon rods join the stab , and they've held, even through a corn field. (see below).

Two things:

1. take the decals off using mineral spirits and a Qtip , working the edge of the decal and pulling with hemostats after you raise an edge. If you change out the Qtips frequently with fresh mineral spirits you end up with very little adhesive residue on the plane. I used a heat gun on one of the decals and most of the adhesive stayed on the plane - much more difficult to clean off.

2. This bird is tougher than I would have imagined. Put mine in the corn yesterday ( wind shear? radio ? the devil? DUMB THUMBS) and only crushed a small area of the leading edge , otherwise unscathed. My buddy "landed" his upside down on a REALLY low inverted pass and his was unscathed except for a broken prop and some cowl rash.

Mine has some interesting moments when it climbs for no apparent reason - don't know if it's the thick airfoil and some wierd thermals or the incidence changing 'cause of the wing shifting or what. I've tried APC 12/6 and zinger 13/4 and APC 13/4 - so far, the APC 13/4 suits me the best.

And the YS .63 is not overwhelming on this plane. Not exactly blasting out of the hover. Fun to point roll and stuff like that - some roll couple with rudder and some pitching in knife edge , but no problem.

Elevators well in a breeze, wings are solid, haven't gotten a good waterfall out of it , but I'm new to waterfalls. Not the easiest plane to get on the ground in a breeze.

Overall a fun plane and worth the $$.

Dorin Luck
Old 07-21-2003, 11:53 PM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

have 4 flights on mine...saito 72...absolutely a great flying airplane...not bad habits...easy to land...flys inverted with hardly any down elv..as far as wing set up...a couple of things done...two balsa keys on wing just inside fuse...no shifting....balsa block over bolt hole...(drilled out of course)..more stable mount...and replace bolt with new one 4/20..had to add 3.5 oz to nose for balance....other than that..it's a great plane.
Old 07-22-2003, 01:16 AM
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YNOT
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

Yep, the wing does have a tiny bit of movement. Both back and forth AND up and down. So gotta fix that and yes, that would make it very pitch sensitive.

I agree with the waterfalls, not too happy with them.
Old 07-22-2003, 01:48 AM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

On taking off the decals. I used paint thinner and a small art brush. I just dipped it in the thinner and pulled on the lifted edge of the decal. If you do it slow enough the glue will come off with the decal. However, I followed up with a paper towel and acetone and it cleaned it right up.
Old 07-22-2003, 03:22 AM
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awat
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

That is very interesting about the snapping. Mine does not do it at all. I have over 45 deg throw on the elevator and I can pull hard on the elevator and no snap just a very nice wall with no twisting. My CG is about 6-1/4". I have a YS 63 on the nose.
Old 07-23-2003, 12:48 AM
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Default Many factors

There are several possible causes of this problem.

1. Problems with the quality control on the kit. Warped wing or control surfaces, improper incidence, etc.

2. Improper construction. Wing, stab or rudder aren't square/vertical, elevators weren't joined together evenly, ailerons aren't matched, and probably a few more things.

3. Dumb thumbs. With high rates, if you pull full up elevator and just put in a hint of aileron at the same time(easier to do than not), it will definitely snap.

4. Improper setup. Balance problems. Control surfaces setup incorrectly. As above, ailerons out of sync, rudder out of trim (offset to counter incorrect setup - not enough right thrust) will cause a plane to snap easily.

5. Airplane design problems.

I think the most likely causes of the snapping complaints are items 2, 3 and 4, with 1 another possibility, but I think is less likely. Since some are flying without snapping tendencies, I would think item 5 is a highly unlikely cause of the issue.

Don't forget, the heavier the wing loading the easier the plane will stall(lower speed) and this problem is more likely to surface, or at least be more prevalent, as the plane gets heavier. With many people pushing the envelope with big engines, it's likely this is the reason this problem is showing up.

I'll have mine done by the end of the week and it is going to be on the light side, so we'll see how it goes and I'll report back if it has this tendency or not.

Bill
Old 07-23-2003, 01:39 AM
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YNOT
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

Well.......the plane flys much better when the wing does not move around in flight.

The nylon bolt that comes with the plane needs to be tossed in the trash. 1/4-20 makes a difference. Much tighter fit.

The holes in the bulkhead had allot of slop in it allowing the wing to move around. A couple small pieces of lite ply with the proper hole drilled in them, placed behind the firewall did the trick. Now when the wing is installed there is a slight squeak ensuring me that there is a tight fit with the wing pins and the fuse.

Went out and flew it this afternoon and it was not as pitch sensitive. It did not drop a wing as bad as it did.

Thanks for the heads up on the wing issue.

Still need to dial in the plane.
Old 07-23-2003, 01:46 AM
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Default Loose stuff??

Although my dowels are as tight as I would expect them to be and so is the 1/4x20 nylon bolt that come with it, and I tried a couple of others I had and they aren't any tighter, I also think the 1/8" ply where the dowels go through is not enough and agree with YNOT's fix. I too plan to add another 1/8" where the dowels are just to be safe.

Thanks to everyone for the heads up. You've saved a lot of grief for a lot of flyers.
Old 07-23-2003, 03:30 AM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

I just flew mine for the first time tonight, it did wing rock quite a bit trying to harrier which disappoints me a bit, maybe its in the setup yet... I hope so. Have a fresh Saito .72 w/APC 14-4W prop, Hitech Electron6 receiver, Hitech HS-5245MG's on all control surfaces and Hydrimax 6.0 volt 5 cell pack which is next to the fuel tank up front putting my CG at about 5 7/8". If I try to slow down while pulling back and feeding in some power it rocks quickly and settles down, it hovers/torque rolls awesome but not harriers, dont know if its me or my setup... suggestions?
Old 07-23-2003, 03:48 AM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

hey guys!!. when i 1st started flying mine i had wing rock just like you. it wasn't bad and now that i'm used to the plane i can stop this with a little bit of stick work. i would like it to not tip over at all so i dont have to work as hard(i know i'm lazy!!). i love this plane. i have not flown many planes but this is by far my favorite plane. i found that when landing its easy to land out of a harrier than a normal approach. i have a YS 63 on mine. still working on it. my carb as been getting stuck and wont go past half thrilled but i have a new carb on it's way from YS so i'll be able to do a bit more in a few days. i also noticed that on the wing dowels they were getting little groves dug out in them from the vibrations. i have balanced my prop as good as i could. and tips on keeping them from being dug out all the Way through, Fiberglass, epoxy, thick CA???
Old 07-23-2003, 04:24 AM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

I sure am glad to see this thread. I maidened my funtana last weekend and even with cg at the fwd. end of the range (Saito 100) it snaps at the slightest provocation. I have reduced low rate elevator to less than an inch, but it will still tip stall with just elevator. The plane went together very straight and seemed very well made. Wing is very tight. I used the built in right thrust as is and noticed that the up-lines needed lots of left rudder trim, so I am currently reducing right thrust by half. This may be an adverse effect of a Saito 100 with 15 by 4W on the front end.
Old 07-23-2003, 11:36 AM
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George E.
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

This is very strange, some snap, some don't?

My CG is at 6" back and the plane is pretty light at 5lbs 2oz, maybe it's a weight issue?

I was worried about the snapping because it seems like a lot of them do it. I can quickly pull 45 degrees of up elevator and the plane just pops up at any speed, no wing dropping. I guess I got a good one?????

I wish I could help. I didn't make any mods to the airframe.
Old 07-23-2003, 03:19 PM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

what i think is strange with mine is that i can pop up and the wings wont drop at all but coming out of a loop or a dive it drops the wings. and like i said with a bit of stick work i can stop that but i don't think i should have to
Old 07-24-2003, 12:50 AM
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Default Mine too

I got the first 4 flights on my Funtana last night. I was not overly impressed either. I have a Saito 72 and tried both a 14x4w and a 13x6. The 14x4w was just too big with the tall grass at our field, with all the rain we just can't keep it like a golf course . Knife edge had to be full throttle and could sustain it but not climb. Elevators would wobble the wing, transition to harrier I have a hard time keeping the nose down (probably my technque, should I let up on elevator some?). Inverted needs just a slight amount of down elevator. Water falls are OK, but can't get more than one. Can't pull real tight loops, It snaps out big time! Tried programming in flaperons and it didn't really help much which surprised me! I believe there are two things I need to do to try and correct these, 1.) I believe I'm loosing a lot of air speed which is contributing to the bad characteristics and helps explain the lack of effect of the flaperons and 2.) the CG is too conservative (it is in the range that the instructions say, using the high tech finger method). I'm not sure what the elevation of our field is but I'm not getting the vertical performance I had hoped for from the Saito 72!
I don't want to sound like a whiner, I'm just reporting my findings as I see it. I'm hoping I can improve the performance by moving the CG back and I hope the Saito will improve with more run time. I'd be interested to hear about others who adjusted their CG and the results.
Old 07-24-2003, 01:21 AM
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Default Good report

Hi Gumby2!

Thanks for the report. I'm going to fly mine this weekend so I'm trying to gather as much info as possible before then. There's a couple of important things you didn't mention. First, what is the total weight of your plane, and second, how old is your .72 (is it broken in), and what fuel are you using with it?

Thanks for the additional info.

Bill
Old 07-24-2003, 01:48 AM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

I have seen three Funtanas' They are all different with mine being the worst!

The differences are in cover quality, build quality and weight. My fiberglass was horrible!


3D'nPat... I have noticed the severe pitch coupling! Mine hovers nicely, but I have the other common problems mentioned in this thread.

I would love to see it as a kit... I am done with ARF's

The Prototypes always look nice... then you wait months and get less than the quality you expected.

One of my wing ribs has already cracked and the piece is flopping around in the wing!

It does fly nice... not the awesome performer the Horizon add leads you to expect:

"He based the Funtana S on his highly successful Katana S TOC design. The result is a budget-friendly .40-size airplane with unlimited IMAC performance. "

or...

"The Funtana can do it all: harriers, torque rolls, blenders, rolling circles and almost anything else you can dream up."

Notice the add does not mention Knife edge, waterfalls, Parachutes, Walls...

I do not mean to sound like I am "dissing" Horizon/Hangar 9... or any of the other ARF builders/importers... but I have noticed a disturbing trend in poor quality/workmanship and now flying characteristics.

My .02 and I realize I am in the minority.

Cheers
Bert Garrison
Nor Cal
Old 07-24-2003, 03:35 AM
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Default Flyn' the H9 Funtana Set up's and Mods

Mine has the same snap/pitch problem anyone figure out why?

My elevator halves seem to be able to twist up to 1/2" and I think the joiner is too flexible, I also have 148 standards in the ailerons which might be blown back since the surfaces are so big??

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