Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

In the article they said something about attitude or a sweet spot that the plane hovers hands off. I discovered this is realflight G@ and can torque roll all day even with the simple flier. The problem is how the heck do you find it in real life. MY UCD 60 doesn't seem to have one. It wants to fall out any position I put it in. I can hover it for a couple minutes, but its shaky. I thought it was different in real life.

I was flying someones GP stick and another guys trainer and I could find a spot where they were just balanced, but it was hard to keep them there because they didn't have big control surfaces.

Is there a problem with my UCD 60. I do have the CG a bit up, but the article said that didn't matter. Do I have to fix the thrust line or can something be warped.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

Maybe a little more downthrust is helful, if it's fliping to it's back, or less downthrust if it's nosing over would help. But from what I see it's a trial and error method, in the computer it's almost impossible to simulate all the things that happen in an airplane, so it's much easier to hover in a sim than on real life. A sim is great for learning the proper coordination for mainting a fairly good hover. I know this by own experience, after spending a month practcing hovers on the sim, when I got to fly my SPAD (now retired) I hovered it 2 feet from the deck at my first attempt at hovering on the real life.....But to find that "sweet spot" in real life is basically a trial and error method.

Hope this helps....

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

But to find that "sweet spot" in real life is basically a trial and error method.

AMEN to that. Make sure you take the time to trim out your plane including the CG, that along will make the sweet spot easier to find. I have found the quickest way to a hover is to have the correct power.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

Chances are that you are not going to find a sweet spot on the UCD, depending on the set up.

You may need to look at a few other factors.

On 100 and 150 cc airplanes, 35-40%, you can find a sweet spot. In fact, you can find just the right spot, you can almost put the transmitter on the ground and the plane will just TR at the same alitude just drifting with the wind.

With some of the smaller planes with powerful 4 strokes, you may find a sweet spot.

With a two stroke plane, it's difficult with out giving up acceleration.

There are a few things you may be able to try. Take the clicks out of your throttle stick. Old heli trick. Also if your radio has the ablity, work with the throttle curves. Or you can just keep propping it up and you will find it, however you will need more throttle to hold it and you will give up your ablitly to pull out do to, too much prop and it can't rev it up fast enough.

Problem with all of the above; You may not be able to hover or TR other planes.

The other way, don't worry about the sweet spot. Work the throttle. You use short blast of power and work it. Also allows for backing the plane down and have the power to get out.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

The more forward your CG is, the more SENSITIVE it will be trying to hover. If your CG was about 1/2" in front of the tail wheel, hovering,T-rolling or just verticle flying is all you would be able to do. As with anything, anyones tips are going to just be guidelines. As the article states, EVERY aircraft does have that "SWEET SPOT", but some are going to be VERY SENSITIVE just moments outside of the sweet spot.......if you want to hover EASIER then yes a rearward CG helps.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

I have flown 33% to a 37% toc plane, and not one will hover hands off. Watch vids of people hovering and torque rolling, they are all working the rudd and ele.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

i dont think they are properly talking about fully hands off lol..

with my brothers 30% cap you can realy find the sweet spot. U just need tiny lil controle movement and the aircraft will just hold station.. But my bros cap is VERY well set up.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

I do understand that a plane in a torque roll doesn't hover hands off. I am guessing it should fly like my helicopter spinning which I can do easily. Its just the controls would be a little different. I have the orientation. I just can't get a plane to torque roll very well in real life. It always wants to fall out in the same direction. I wish I could fly somebody's TOC plane to compare it to mine, but I know that's not going to happen.

What to I do to play around to get the sweet spot. Change the CG a little and change the thrust angles or do I do something else as well.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

I can fly heli's too, hovering a helicopter is easy next to hovering an airplane IMO.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

When you say it falls out the same way every time, does it fall out in yaw or pitch? If it's yaw you need to change the engine thrust line or feed in some rudder while torque rolling. If it's pitch, you likely have a wing incidence problem. In both cases you can still find a "sweet spot" by finding the amounts of input you have to hold in order for the plane to remain in a vertical position. (ie rudder and elevator) A permanent fix, of course, would be to change the engine thrust line or wing incidence/flaperon trim depending on what the problem is.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

All very interesting points.

I liked the article because it seemed to address a refinement of the skills needed to torque roll in general.

Like you are all pointing out, different designs, sizes and configurations will undoubtedly be "easier" to keep in a TR.

The article seemed to imply that if you're "chasing your tail" around the sky, you are not doing it correctly. I agree in part, but I think the author may have somewhat disregarded what is perhaps the biggest difficulty in getting to a point where you can even start to torque roll, and this is learning to use the rudder and elevator instantly from any airplane attitude (near vertical, in this case). I propose this is the central problem, rather than trying to simply minimize the amount of controlling needed in or around a sweet spot. I think everyone realizes this, but it wasn't overtly stated in the article.

If you can't correct the plane as it falls out of the sweet spot (thereby "chasing" it) , then you really shouldn't have been there in the first place (ie, it was a lucky move).

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

I fully agree with JohnVH. When I read the article it sounded more to me like the author was kind of "skirting" the issue and making the task seem much easier than it really is. I've flown everything from .40 size fun flies, the UCD, 33%'ers, 35%'ers, and 40%'ers, and flown everything from 3W to Troy Built and not one hovered hands off. Nor did they hover anywhere near hands off. And if you argue "Well that one guy did it at the last TOC with just one hand!", well then I can guarantee that the other hand was VERY busy!

True some TR much better than others but it's just like any other aerobatic maneuver. It takes practice, timing, knowing thy airplane, and anticipation. If you know the airplane likes to slowly nose over, then you anticipate it with slight back pressure on the stick. I can hover my Troy Built easily, and it feels like I'm hardly working the sticks, but I am, and if I don't then I shouldn't be doing it! Airplanes are not naturally stable at zero airspeed!

Although on a PERFECTLY calm day, with a PERFECTLY setup airplane AND transmitter AND no problems spring up, an airplane COULD hover hands off. Providing of course you set the throttle at the PERFECT position so the plane stays stationary. Any throttle change will effect all axes...

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

If you can invert the plane with very little input to keep it level, and the plane continues to fall out in one direction you are very close. What direction does it fall out in?

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

one thing i will say.. spending Lots of time on my aerofly Pro TRing has seriosly inproved my TRing in real life..

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

It always wants to fall out (looking at it from the canopy) left. The dam thing does not want to spin either. The plane somehow flies strait with the aielerons far from center. One is up and the other is down. It wants to roll clockwise when they are level.

I am certain that the rudder is warped which could be causing the roll.

RE: Questions about the Torque roll tips on RCU
 

First let me say that i have never owned a UCD but I have made numerous flights on them trying to show the owners or find out for myself how well they hover or TR. My immediate observations were: 1. the planes needs alot of right thrust and maybe a little right rudder trim. 2. the planes takes large control inputs to correct it when it starts to fall off. Especially with regards to rudder. Once I realized that I had to "bend the sticks" so to speak I was able to keep it in a hover or TR. It just doesnt respond like a smaller profile or fun-fly probably becuse of the long tail moment.

And one key thing that I found helps me in a TR is to have the plane trimmed for hovering and TR'ing. That will mean the right amount of right thrust and rudder so that when you properly pull "pure" vertical it doesnt want to fall off to either side. Now more than likely you will have to hold back on the elevator constantly as the plane will want to fall forward. And more importantly you will have to get used to seeing the plane angled slightly towards the canopy. This is usually the "sweet spot". Most of us have a hard time adjusting to that attitude in the begining since we're afraid of letting it fall on its back. Get comfortable pushing that elevator stick forward when it starts to fall back and you'll get there.

I spent alot of time being able to hover but not TR because I would not allow myself to let the plane stand up that last 5 or 10 degrees to enter the "sweet spot". I simply kept the plane at a slight forward angle into the wind and just wished I could TR. Once I finally made up my mind to stand her the rest of the way up I freaked for a while on its tendency to fall backwards. So then I had to force myself to hold the tail down and especially when the belly comes around. Think about this....you know what to do when she comes around....just relax and push the sticks in the right direction. My little secret that I used for a while was when the belly is towards you push the tail with the rudder stick instead of pulling the nose like you do when looking at the canopy.

And finally......practice as low as you can comfortably hover. The lower you are the easier it is and learn to recover without losing much altitude. And im sure this is all stuff that youve heard before....so just go practice and make sure youve gots lots of throw on the tail of that UCD.