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Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

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Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Old 03-31-2007, 01:05 PM
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Demosthenes
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Default Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Airway Company(home-built aircraft)





This is a wing-lift increasing idea I have come up with a year ago. It increases the wing lift, while at the same time not increasing the surface area of the wing or any part of the airplane. The only requirement is for the wing to be at least 1 cm thick.

First, you have to make constant holes in the wings leading edge. The wholes must ranging from .3 to .5 cm in diameter. Then, you make constant holes on the upper section of the wing, located in the back of the airfoil (2/3 of airfoil's length going from the leading edge). Those wholes must be ranging from .1 to .4 cm in diameter. For better results, you might want to place an engine in a wing itself, which will suck in the air from the leading edge with it's propeller. To not just add this additional weight to the plane, make a slot in the wing's covering and install a propeller with the diameter you want. Note that the engine will still stay inside the wing. This way, maybe 60%-80% of the propeller will show out of the wing, while the rest will be inside. The part that will show out of the wing will provide the needed thrust for your airplane, while the other part will suck in the air through the leading edge holes.

As you already know, the lift is made by a difference in pressure on the upper and lower surface of the wing. Since there will be additional airspeed on the upper surface of the wing, there will be less pressure there. This yields to that there will be less resistance for the lower surface of the wing to push the wing/plane up. If you put a lot of effort in this simple but nice-working mechanism, the lift of your wing may increase even by 2 times more.

In order to make sure that none of the air gets inside the wing, you will have to install this. Buy a couple of bottles from ketchup or something else which say that they have no-mess caps, e.g. the substance can't get out of the bottle. Install those mechanisms on each of your upper wing section holes. But watch out, install them upside down, e.g. the opposite way they were installed on the bottles you have bought. Now no air will be able to get into the wing, but it will be freely able to get out.

This additional airflow will NOT disturb the original airflow over the wing. As said previously, the holes on the upper wing section will be located in the back of the wing. And we know that because of the effects of downwash, friction/pressure drag, etc. the airflow separates itself from the wing at the middle of the airfoil or so. Therefore, the original airflow will not be disturbed.

Also, the air that escapes from the holes on the upper wing section will not cause more drag or simply float away from the wing. That is because there is so-called boundary layer which flies over the wing; it is a very, very thin layer that touches the skin of the wing. This 'boundary layer' keeps all the air that flies over the wing attached to the wing's surface. Therefore, the air that escapes from the upper wing section holes will be kept on the wing and will be made use of.


Demosthenes.[>:]

P.S. To find out more about my ideas that I plan on adopting to real aircraft in a couple of years, go to:

www.freewebs.com/demosthenes01
Old 03-31-2007, 06:38 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Something like this?
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Old 03-31-2007, 06:41 PM
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Shoe
 
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Sounds like that should work. My only question is you didn't mention the extra lift you could get from the low pressure surrounding the landing gear if you kept them spinning after they are retracted.
Old 03-31-2007, 08:07 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Using upper surface vents to both draw in the boundry layer and to blow out air into the boundry layer is nothing new. Lots of experiments were done with that in the early post war years and up into the late 50's that I've read about. As you suggest they found that it was best to use motors or engines to run fans to perform the job. The only difference with the other setups was that they didn't rely on deforming the leading edge with slots or holes but rather drew or vented the air from specific ports or scoops.
Old 04-01-2007, 02:32 PM
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Demosthenes
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Just like that Taul Pall!!!!!!
Old 04-01-2007, 02:33 PM
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Demosthenes
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

But they haven't really applied this on real aircraft..... did they?
Old 04-01-2007, 04:47 PM
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da Rock
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Yes, they have applied very similar ideas. So similar that if patents were in force, there'd be lawsuits.
Old 04-01-2007, 05:00 PM
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Helidreamer
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Yes, the military has even done experiments with the same idea. The main reason that they dropped the idea is the high maintenace that is required in keeping the holes cleared of debris.
Old 04-01-2007, 06:01 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

when I saw the X-21 at EAFB in 1963, it hadn't yet flown.
It did leak fuel all over the place.
Manufacturing the wing was a major pain, as was maintaining the suction slots.
http://history.nasa.gov/x1/appendixa1.html
The mechanical and structural problems with this idea make it totally impractical.
Old 04-01-2007, 08:10 PM
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rmh
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Being a party pooper -add this to the "why bother" list.
For years , a almost endless list of trick designs have been funded by various Gov't groups --In most cases to use up monies that -if not used , would be deducted from future budgets
The trick wings and free floating tandem wings and the incredibly notorious rotating wings for vectored flights are typical examples.
When it is all sorted out - it keeps coming back to improvements on relatively straightforward designs - made lighter or stronger with more power to propel them.
Old 04-01-2007, 10:02 PM
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da Rock
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Dick, I hate to poop on your pooping, but darned if it usually isn't a good idea to fund testing, almost to the point that it's little matter what the testing is.

And it's quite naive to suggest that nothing came of it. Seldom is any note taken of the patents (new ideas) that always spill out of those things. And seldom is any noise made about any of it. One good result is always the same...... we keep that part of our industry working and thinking. And training, so to speak, for the next wildass, dumb idea triggered test that turns out to produce something like teflon. Darned if it wasn't discovered while something else was the target.

Whatever................
Old 04-02-2007, 10:48 AM
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mesae
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Old 04-02-2007, 11:42 AM
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rmh
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

you poopeed sideways --
experimentation is my creedo.
But the monies shoved into ding dong flying devices-which have been done over and over -with no practical outcome -is the point I was referring to.
Most of these things look like a page from the "will it fly " TV specials.-going backto Da Vinci's sketchpad.
The old VTOL ideas (DaVinci copies)were completely impractical-and I would bet that congressional funding pork barrels were the only reason those turkeys continued on as long as they did..
When a working one came along --it was a rather conventional machine with thrust which blew it into the air - and bicycle chains used to move the ducts around-- mo power -'n less weight won out
so there --
next?
If you want to see some really trick engineering at work - look at the recent toys coming from China- case in point: a small model helicopter -made from spongy foam - guide by infra red signals (like a TV remote) with contra rotating props and a tiny tail rotor that aligns direction of flight - and any kid with a little patience can fly it! Anbd the TX charges the model !
Now THATS simply an amazing bit of innovation -using the latest stuff from a variety of fields..
Or electric foamies -anyone who has not worked with these, has missed out on one of the BIG leaps of the 21st Century
OK rant over - your turn---
Old 04-02-2007, 01:11 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

As I recall, the wing on he X-21 had many feet of slots machined in the upper and lower skins.
Compressors mounted under each wing about where the motors were on the B-66 sucked air thru these slots.
The design, machining, fabrication of the wings wasn't cost effective.
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Old 04-02-2007, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Look up the XV-11A Marvel and the other work done by Gus Raspet et.al in the 1950s and early 60s.

You can find flying examples of what you are proposing already tested.
Old 04-02-2007, 02:23 PM
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rmh
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

The big problem accociated with these "ideas"-is that the energy required to increase the wing efficiency"- is greater than the increase in wing efficiency.
net outcome is negative increase in airframe efficiency
Old 04-02-2007, 02:57 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!


ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

But they haven't really applied this on real aircraft..... did they?
Yep. In my reading of various books and seeing various TV documentary shows over the years NACA and NASA pretty much covered all the variations of slots or holes and both blowing and sucking that you can think of. From leading edge to trailing edge and both overall skin and localized special purpose applications. Due to the problems associated with operational use as mentioned above only a few craft have ever used any of the options that were developed. Blown flaps on the F104 and on the Mig 21 from the other side of the pond are two notable exceptions that I know of from off the top of my head.
Old 04-02-2007, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Look guys, have I EVER said about making 15,000 holes in the wing as in that plane I was reading about the other night? Ofcourse there will be problems, I never said there won't be. As one American senator said, "If there is no strugle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom yet disapprove of agitation...want crops without plowing the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle." Frederick Douglas it was.

There will be problems, there will be chages, but it will come out in something.Why will we need big generators? Why do we need the fuel tanks in the wings? Is the wing all we have in an airplane? What about the fuselage? The tail? How about changing the engine's blades? Think about it, the airplane has had its form the same for 104 years now. Don't you think it should change in different clouth by now? All the airliners are the same nowadays, all we do is make 'em bigger. Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas, all are famous, but neither gave anything to aviation... did they?

Demosthenes.[>:]
Old 04-02-2007, 05:27 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

actually - quite a lot
Old 04-02-2007, 06:17 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!


ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

Think about it, the airplane has had its form the same for 104 years now. Don't you think it should change in different clouth by now? All the airliners are the same nowadays, all we do is make 'em bigger. Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas, all are famous, but neither gave anything to aviation... did they?

Demosthenes.[>:]

You know, you could say the same thing about automobiles and motorcycles. They still use piston engines with poppet valves opened by cams and closed by springs for the most part. OK the Wankel engine made some inroads but turned out to be a great leap sideways. We still roll on rubber tires inflated with air. Power is still transferred to the wheels via gears and clutches. But compare a 1908 Ford Model T to a 2007 Honda Civic and the change is revolutionary. The Honda Civic has a track record of lasting 200,000 miles before needing a rebuild verses the Model T's 15-20,000 miles and goes about twice as far on a gallon of gas as the Model T all while going much faster and starting every morning. Yet it basically works the same way. It's all refinement mostly, things learned from nearly a century of carmaking, not from some revolutionary discovery.

Don't underestimate the cumulative effect of thousands of small improvements.
Old 04-02-2007, 06:35 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Did the T actually have an average life cycle of 20,000 miles?
sounds high to me --
also - I see Civics and Toyotas which easily run way over 200,000 with simply regular oil changes
300,000 is nothing extraordinary on these cars.
My mom bought a new 52 Ford V8 and the valves needed regrinding at 30000 miles . Lousy metals and tolerances . the old"break in" cycle is non existant now.
Aircraft improvements are not really due to improved airfoils and trick wings - rather, addressing the basic problem of flying a person --- weight and power--- are the two areas where innovations have shown most results .
Old 04-02-2007, 07:23 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Airplanes... all successful airplanes have the shapes they have because aerodynamic evolution says those shapes work for the designed purposes.
Fancy things like boundary layer control, channel wings, canards, flying wings.. can't survive in the economic world of aeronautics.
These come with a herd of built-in handicaps of various types... excessive manufacturing/maintenance costs for BLC; structural complexity and poor aerodynamics for channel wings; conventional planes fly their tasks easier and cheaper than canards and flying wings..
Look at the evolution of liquid cooled fighter planes before WWII... the purpose and power determines the shape.
Airliners look like they do today, quite different than they did in the DC-6/Connie days, because of refinements in design, and applying those refinements -economically-.
If it can't be done cheaply, it ain't gonna get done!
As Dick mentions, about the only successful applications of BLC were in the F-104 and MiG-21. Neither of these planes is considered state-of-the-art today.
Sometimes the reputation of the designer can bludgeon the user into using less-than-optimum equipment, but once in service, evolution (hard use) removes the inadequate.
Old 04-02-2007, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!


ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

Did the T actually have an average life cycle of 20,000 miles?
sounds high to me --
...
.
I heard Henry asked his designers..."Which parts break least often?"
and told them to redesign them for the more usual life cycle of the rest of the parts.
I'm sitting here thinking that all the planes I worked on at Lockheed are at the end (or past) their useful lives... L-1011, F-117, ES-3A..
Old 04-02-2007, 08:59 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

Demosthenes,
Since you're throwing out quotes, as one at-best so-so actor said, "Build it and they will come". [8D]
Old 04-02-2007, 10:25 PM
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Default RE: Wing-Lift Increasing Idea (Tested by me)!!!!

As many have already stated, this idea is not new. In relatively near-term history, it is employed on the F4 Phantom, using engine bleed air, and is called BLC - boundary layer control. Its efficiency is noted in the wing's ability to maintain lift (not stall) at very high angles of attack.

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