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c117 crash

Old 12-22-2010, 09:38 PM
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Ram-bro
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Default c117 crash

http://shock.military.com/Shock/vide...=224151&page=6
Old 12-22-2010, 10:10 PM
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91zulu
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Default RE: c117 crash

That pilot made the same stupid mistake the B52 pilot did. Why is it they think they can hot dog those big huge heavy planes trying to make 90 deg turns. I don`t get it. There goes my tax dollars. Damn idiot.
Old 12-22-2010, 10:18 PM
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Experten109/40
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Default RE: c117 crash


ORIGINAL: 91zulu

That pilot made the same stupid mistake the B52 pilot did. Why is it they think they can hot dog those big huge heavy planes trying to make 90 deg turns. I don`t get it. There goes my tax dollars. Damn idiot.
I suspose you knowwith 100% certaintyit was the pilots fault? a little fast on damning that poor fellow &
his crew. that was a soldier.. a havelittle respect for him.
Old 12-22-2010, 10:27 PM
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Warbird Joe
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Default RE: c117 crash


ORIGINAL: P-40K-5


ORIGINAL: 91zulu

That pilot made the same stupid mistake the B52 pilot did. Why is it they think they can hot dog those big huge heavy planes trying to make 90 deg turns. I don`t get it. There goes my tax dollars. Damn idiot.
I suspose you know with 100% certainty it was the pilots fault? a little fast on damning that poor fellow &
his crew. that was a soldier.. a have little respect for him.
couldn't agree with you more P-40K-5.

Joe
Old 12-23-2010, 12:26 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

absolutely right P-40K-5.

Merry Christmas everyone.

cheers
Rick
Old 12-23-2010, 12:37 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

The article below the vid. said PILOT ERROR. I agree, four peolpe died because of one was careless.
Old 12-23-2010, 04:31 AM
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scale only 4 me
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Default RE: c117 crash

It would seam blame was shared
http://www.pacaf.af.mil/shared/media...101211-002.pdf

Zulu,
IMO that statment is out of line

Let us not forget how dangerous a game our Boys play, Weather it be at Airshows, Training or flying Sorties,,
They are Brave Men and Do deserve our respect,, even when they make mistakes.
Old 12-23-2010, 05:17 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

I served in the Air Force and am saddened by this loss. The pilot may, or may not have made a mistake...human beings do that sort of thing. Prayers for the aircrew's families are in order here, not condemnation.
Old 12-23-2010, 05:31 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

My condolences go out to the family and friends of those who were lost in this tragedy.

In 1966 my father, along with his passenger also died in his airplane after making some poor decisions as a PIC.

As we all know, flying is serious business, with clearly recognized and published limitations and procedure to equipment for the safely of all. Even human error is considered in procedures given all the safety redundancy built in. It is often the human personality that over rides all this and results in tragedy. This is apparently the case in this incident, given this statement in the findings. "The board also found channelized attention, overconfidence, expectancy, misplaced motivation, procedural guidance, and program oversight substantially contributed to the mishap." Tragic, preventable, useless, unnecessary, wasteful, are some words that come to mind and those are in relation to the crew. The aircraft and railroad section can be replaced, but not those men.

I hate seeing this stuff.

BTW, I'm glad they edited the video.
Old 12-23-2010, 06:40 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

If 91-zulu and thunderbolt had bothered to take the time and review the article, they would have known that the pilot wasn't just "Hot Dogging" for the heck of it, he was practicing for an airshow. While the investigation states it was pilot error, it's still a tragic lost of life, the loss of the hardware is secondary. Our military personnel deserve our respect and support. Even though the accident happened in July, the families involved will have a difficult time dealing with this during the holidays. I for one am ashamed of the attitude displayed by these individuals.

FB
Old 12-23-2010, 06:49 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

Yeah, I don't think anyone is going to get much support within this hobby condemning a dead soldier. There are a lot of ex-military-types in this hobby and we tend to support those who have put on the uniform.

Next soldier you see, offer your hand and thank him/her for their service. They will be VERY grateful for the gesture.
Old 12-23-2010, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

First cause of any accident is pilot error and it's up to his fellow pilots to take the onus off his back. Pilot error or not, give the poor fellow a break.
Old 12-23-2010, 07:50 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

I have compassion for the loss of life,accidents do happen , but this still comes down to "Pilot in Command " and he alone . I doubt even with the claxon horn going off the co pilot and observer even had a chance to do anything.
IMO. This accident has little in common with the Buff that went in at Fairchild AFB.Sure both were getting ready for an airshow but thats were it ends ,at Fairchild the PIC was "hot dogging" ,as He was retiring in the next few days .
Semper Fi
Joe


Old 12-23-2010, 08:22 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

"This accident has little in common with the Buff that went in at Fairchild AFB"

really?

Both Low and Slow at a near 90 degree bank.
Old 12-23-2010, 09:24 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash


ORIGINAL: wingspar

''This accident has little in common with the Buff that went in at Fairchild AFB''

really?

Both Low and Slow at a near 90 degree bank.
I have to agree. I see many things in common, including the lack of discipline on the parts of the pilots that allowed them to stray so far from safety procedure and parameters.

I love aviation. Most everything about it. I have to admit, these needless fatalities upset me. Aviation is so about procedure, checks, and rechecks, redundancy in systems, thinking ahead and not in the moment, ongoing education and practice, and even at air shows, planes are never to be taken intentionally out of there envelope of safe operation. No need to, as most military aircraft are capable of impressive maneuvers as it is.

Hopefully, military airshow pilots, that tend to push the envelope more and more, will take incidents like this to heart. The crowd will still enjoy the show, and everyone will go home happy, if only you remember your training and respect the limitations every man and every man-made thing has.

Be safe.................PLEASE
Old 12-23-2010, 10:22 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash


ORIGINAL: Free Bird

If 91-zulu and thunderbolt had bothered to take the time and review the article, they would have known that the pilot wasn't just ''Hot Dogging'' for the heck of it, he was practicing for an airshow. While the investigation states it was pilot error, it's still a tragic lost of life, the loss of the hardware is secondary. Our military personnel deserve our respect and support. Even though the accident happened in July, the families involved will have a difficult time dealing with this during the holidays. I for one am ashamed of the attitude displayed by these individuals.

FB

I read the article. It doesn't matter what he was practicing for. the fact remains three other people died because of his bad judgement. He new the limits of the plane and crossed the line. Sadly it costed him alot.

I'm not cold hearted here guys, I am sadened by the loss of life too. God bless there families.

But The fact remains to this type of flying should not be allowed for the big boys. If it was to save a life then, yes. but this was just to impress someone. Totally uncalled for.

Don't be ashamed of anything I said, I'm not. Facts are facts and the truth hurts sometimes.




Old 12-23-2010, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash


[/quote]

I love aviation. Most everything about it. I have to admit, these needless fatalities upset me. Aviation is so about procedure, checks, and rechecks, redundancy in systems, thinking ahead and not in the moment, ongoing education and practice, and even at air shows, planes are never to be taken intentionally out of there envelope of safe operation. No need to, as most military aircraft are capable of impressive maneuvers as it is.
[/quote]

DITTO!!!
Old 12-23-2010, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash


ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU
planes are never to be taken intentionally out of there envelope of safe operation. No need to, as most military aircraft are capable of impressive maneuvers as it is.
I don't really agree with that. WWI & WWII pilots where always taking there planes "intentionally beyond there envelope" to survive.
their innovators that help otherfuture pilotssurvive too.
Old 12-23-2010, 07:35 PM
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Default RE: c117 crash

I could just barely make out the left split aileron extending out trying to roll left. It's hard to see but I guess it shows the pilot trying to correct out of the right turning stall. That has to suck. Your trained to fly on the edge of the aircraft parameters for the air show. I still find it hard to believe something mechanical did not fail. The airshow pilots have so much time doing the same maneuvers that I find it hard to believe this could happen.
Old 12-23-2010, 07:42 PM
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Default RE: c117 crash

I've seen several C-17 demos over the years. The performace that plane has is amazing! I'm still not seeing what the pilot did wrong, other than perhaps turn too tight for that amount of bank.

Here's a video of a pretty typical C-17 demo:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFkdJjtmeEA[/youtube]
Old 12-23-2010, 09:30 PM
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Default RE: c117 crash


ORIGINAL: Veltro

I've seen several C-17 demos over the years. The performace that plane has is amazing! I'm still not seeing what the pilot did wrong, other than perhaps turn too tight for that amount of bank.
Beyond the obvious things such as airspeed & attitude, there are a lot of things that the crash video can't tell us - weight, cg location, density altitude, winds, trim & throttle settings, etc., etc. Poor calculations by the flight crew on any combination of these could have spelled disaster to the common air show flight profile.
Old 12-23-2010, 09:54 PM
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Default RE: c117 crash

I stand by what I said, he was an idiot. The rest of you ex or active may not like it but too bad. Its this cowboy attitude, do what ever I want is the reason for a lot of negative feelings towards this country. You may get away with it around the world but there are laws of nature that will not put up with it. One is GRAVITY. You not going to win that battle. Now lets see the military lunch an attack at gravity.
Some seem to think because it is military it should always get a pass no matter what. I don`t get that.
I would`nt do a move like that with a RC version, and most of you wouldn`t either. So explain to me again why this pilot is`nt an idiot. The thing that gets me is some of you would complain about waste in government social programs and other things but when it comes to a big waste like this causing tens of millions, oh its no big deal, it`s a soldier give it a pass...really???? Do any of you know how many hungry families could have been fed this season with the cost of that plane and you all talking but I`m out of line.
Old 12-24-2010, 04:43 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

It's your lack of compassion dude. I too don't like to see our equipment crash and burn, but mostly, I don't like to see our service personnel die for any reason. I work on the engines that power the C-17 and have many military friends and I wouldn't want to see anything happen to them. The PIC and crew on that aircraqft are/were not idiots. You don't get to pilot aircraft like that if you're an idiot. Give it a rest Zulu. Merry Christmas!

FB
Old 12-24-2010, 04:55 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

All about risk and reward... was the reward worth the risk taken? I don't know the answer to that. Apparently the military thinks it is, because they continue to fly the airshows.
Old 12-24-2010, 05:14 AM
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Default RE: c117 crash

Mom, rest her dear soul, always said "it is not as much what you say, as how you say it". Some of what you say is certainly valid, but we could do without the name-calling and lack of compassion, is all I'm saying.

Just flying one of those big birds normally has got to be a very cerebral affair. All of these military pilots go through rigorous screening and training. A Cornell in the air force recently explained some of it to me and it was interesting to here first hand. Just to fully understand and interact with the modern avionics in these cockpits takes high intelligence and great comprehension and retention. I know I would have fallen far short of what it takes (but just the trying, in one of those big expensive sims would still be fun anyway). But we are reminded by tragedies like this, that while being highly intelligent, they are still exactly like the rest of us. Albeit very intelligent, they are still human, and imperfect.

Even though we may forget sometimes, the modern military aircraft (and even most civilian aircraft) 'knows' this and tries to warn us when we make mistakes. Overriding or ignoring these warnings to fly a plane out of safe perimeters is a human decision that will continue to result in "pilot error" findings like this, and sadly, more loss of life sometimes.

Zulu, I'm upset by these things as well. I can't imagine any of us who love aviation not being effected in some way, but please try to temper your emotion with empathy and compassion for fellow imperfect humans who made mistakes. Think about how horrible that guy felt when he realized what he had done. That sick nauseating felling you get in your stomach when you have screwed up big time and now you know you can't fix it. He knew, they all knew. They had never been in that attitude that close to the ground. They knew they were screwed. He didn't give up, but, mass..gravity....aerodynamics....lack of altitude....oh, he knew it was over. I feel so bad for them all. The terror of that split second before they hit, and what must have gone through their minds. I'm glad I don't have to watch that on the video. It only takes a few seconds, but living it, it is like slow motion when you screw up sometimes.

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