mvigod

Just saw this on CNBC....Bringing the price down on real business jets to a more "affordable" level!

$1.2 million bucks. Very sweet.

http://www.eclipseaviation.com

ShoestringRacer

That is one of a new emerging class of small jets usually referred to as Very Light Jets. They are sort of going to revolutionize the light high end private aircraft market/industry. There are others all nearing certification such as the Adam 700 and the Cessna Mustang to name a few. People that fly small turboprops in that price range will basically be able to afford a jet. There is also a big training and insurance market and problems for these emerging small yet high performance jets because now people with relatively low flight experience will be able to buy their owner flown jet. There is a sort of paradigm shift too because jets are actually easier to fly than prop planes and they are much safer as well and the industry is trying to apply that to the owner market, especially for low time owner-pilots. It's going to be interesting to keep watching it all develop as the certifications and deliveries all begin in the next couple of years. I've been reading quite about them in the aviation magazines. Fun stuff.

LearjetMech

I think it will do well! I know the launch customer with Eclipse. They bought like 240 of them or something rediculous like that. They are goint to start a company called "Dayjet" where they sell a seat on an aircraft and not a share. Curious to see if it works. I'm wondering if my company will step into this market. Probably going to hold off until they see what happens, then we can capitalize on their mistakes. Cheap R&D! Kind of what we did on the Lear 45!!

Taildragger726

There was one in Tampa this past weekend at the AOPA Expo.I guess the Williams deal fell through, it was sporting a pair of P&Ws. Very nice from the outside, didn't get to look inside.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

I read about it not long ago. $998,000 and $200 an hour to fly it for maint and spares. You pay fuel and ins. Can't beat that deal. When you buy it marc, can I fly it for you? Heres my resume and pic of my last landing!

LearjetMech

Yea Williams couldn't get their Sh*t together. Pratt got the deal. I was offered a job with Eclipse but turned it down due to being a contract job and the uncertainty of the industry. I believe that the biggest funder of the company is Bill Gates!! That is what the HR guy told me anyway!!

FLYBOY! You a very lucky man! Glad to hear you are doing well! Get back up on that horse and scratch those itchy feet with some rudder pedals!!!

mvigod

Bill gates? He won't fly private jets. he only flies commercial claiming they are safer.

flyboy - you're hired!

LearjetMech

I believe Mr. Gates owns or owned a Challenger

mvigod

but would he fly in it? I was told he only flies commercial and recall him saying that in an interview several years ago. things may have changed since then though.

Bruno Stachel

My Feedback: (4)

[&:]Maybe he will consider doing this:

http://www.luxist.com/entry/1234000337066877/

ShoestringRacer

Gates has changed his mind on that a while ago; he used to only fly commercial not because of safety but he/Microsoft he claimed didn't need a biz jet. I know he's got one now just forget what. Maybe more than one as well.


Everyone thinks that Williams was the sole reason for the engine change on Elispse Aircraft. There's more to it though. Read the following from Flying Magazine's Peter Garrison, he puts it in perspective. Most people only know half the situation.


Unbearable Heaviness
The rather sudden and dramatic rejection of the Williams EJ22 mini-turbofan by Eclipse Aviation must have given many people the impression the Williams engine had failed to live up to its promised performance. Actually, Williams says the engine is progressing well and has run at a higher thrust level than required by the contract with Eclipse. Nevertheless, Williams “accept[s Eclipse’s] need for a larger, higher thrust engine.�

This is as much as to say that the problem was not that the Williams engine failed to live up to expectations, but that the Eclipse jet did—specifically, that it failed to be as light as it was intended to be.

Failure to be light is endemic among airplanes. Even experienced designers are often seized by an irrational optimism when faced with a clean sheet of paper. At last rumor, the Eclipse was weighing in at around 4,800 pounds gross. This is several hundred pounds above the original (rumored, again) target weight, but still reasonable for a pressurized six-seat airplane, especially one intended to operate at FL 410. There was no reason to think the Eclipse would be lighter than other airplanes of similar capacity. The Williams engines are much lighter than recips—less than 100 pounds each—but their hourly fuel burn is two or three times greater, and so the net powerplant weight comes out about the same. The structural material is conventional aluminum. Where else are you going to save weight?

The rated thrust of two EJ22s, 1,600 pounds, is ample to get a 4,800-pound airplane off a runway. The problem comes in Aspen on a hot day with a failed engine. Hot and high, an EJ22’s thrust probably drops to 600 pounds or less, and because of its very small mass the engine couldn’t support any kind of “war emergency� power setting for more than a few seconds.

The Williams engine could be a great, in fact a revolutionary powerplant, for a four-seat personal twin-jet weighing 3,500 pounds—something like the old Morane-Saulnier Paris (which, by the way, had a gross weight of 8,650 pounds!)—or possibly even for a single-engine airplane in the Mooney class. But before we get carried away with dreams of a new generation of jet-powered general aviation airplanes, we should reflect that jets are in their element only at high altitude, and they therefore have to be pressurized; and they and their pilots need full IFR capability, not only in hardware but also in proficiency. Furthermore, they cover so much ground so fast that there’s no point in having them unless you really have somewhere to go, and often. A jet-powered Skyhawk for Sunday pilots may sound seductive, but it’s a contradiction in terms. For ordinary general aviation operations involving ordinary families taking ordinary trips, the reciprocating engine still has a bright future.

Peter Garrison

CigarSlicer

My Feedback: (2)

I've got a 1988 Hawker 800 for sale. 4,817 TT. Honeywell TFE731-5R's 520 miles/hour coast to coast non stop. Might trade for a few nice RC planes.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

A "Personal" jet is an oxymoron, unless FAA has changed the rules a lot since I last checked. The only pure jet or turbofan that has ever been certificated for single pilot operation is the Paris jet mentioned in the Garrison quote. All other certjificated jedt planes require two pilots.

Additionally, again unless the rules have been changed, all jet operations have to be flown IFR.

Now if you AND your wife have IFR ratings, and have been checked out in the plane it could be considered "Semi" personal.

So, if you really want a "Personal" jet you'll have to find one of the very few remaining Paris jets, fifty years after they went out of production. Or stay in the Experimental class with a BD5J or similar plane.

Bill.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Just did a search on the Paris jet. Not only was I wrong about the number surviving, the production ran a lot longer than I thought.

If you have the money there is one available.

Bill.

Flyfalcons

Many of the straight wing slowtations are certified for single pilot ops, as well as the Premiere and maybe some others that I can't think of. The Eclipse should be easy enough for one pilot to fly (depending on the environment he's operating in), but insurance is going to dictate who will be operating their jets solo.

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

Wasn't the original Lear 23 certified for single pilot operation?

****

Flyboy, I assumed you were kidding, but checked on the N number and found your story!! Wow!! glad to hear you got out......

Flyfalcons

No, it wasn't, although I think it was Lear's goal. An airshow pilot (I forget who) did get an FAA waiver to fly it single-pilot during airshows though.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Bill, never heard of a jet having to be flown IFR. There are lots of single pilot jets out there. We had a Citation IIsp that was single pilot. We flew our West Wind , Falcon 10 and Citation VFR a lot. Just can't do it over 18,000 feet. The personal jets will all be single pilot to the best of my knowledge. They fall under the weight restriction for it. Will still need a type rating as far as I know.

Been trying to talk the boss into one. Would be much safer, well, I guess when the mechanic blows it as bad as ours did, nothin is that safe.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Ed:

It has been a long time, but as memory serves the Paris was the only one approved for single pilot. The IFR restriction? Maybe it was only because the economic operating altitudes all took them over the VFR max. I know a flight around the patch for a test hop, and some ferry flights, could be made without going IFR.

Has your "Book loser" had his hanging by the crotch yet?

Bill.

jongurley

My Feedback: (29)

Does anyone have Eclipse Aviations phone number and the name of a sales rep, I am interested, the link isn't working for me, thanks in advance,,

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ Thats the link I have that works. toll free: 877-375-7978


Bill, the FAA fined the company but not the mechanic. Hows that for a slap in the face.

Yea, the Citation jet, SP and IISP can be flown single pilot. I am sure most of these light jets will be too. They fall under the weight and should be allowed single pilot. We had a Citation IISP that was a single pilot bird.

UltraBob

The Citation 550, 560, Ultra and Encore as well as the older 500's can also be flown single pilot with the appropriate single pilot exemption.