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Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

Old 09-20-2010, 02:46 PM
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redbiscuits
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Default Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

We have a small group of guys that fly at a field we believe is owned either by the city or the school district. We have been using it as a flying site for over a year, mostly on Sundays and the majority of us are AMA members. There are buildings that are owned by the school district and are being flown over and a county road that is also being flown over. Local police nor school officials seem to have no problem with us being there and we get a lot of currious people coming by and watching the show.
My question is, if anything is to ever happen, which there have been a few close calls, does the AMA insurance cover anything. I have asked this a few times and received mixed answers. Someone suggested my homeowners insurance will cover something.....[sm=confused.gif] I have suggested that we form a club, but most of the guys have a bad taste in their mouth from the last club they were involved in and there is no interest in becoming organized at this field.
I really enjoy the company of the fellow flyers at this site, but am I risking to much flying there?
Thanks,
Red
Old 09-20-2010, 02:58 PM
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Rafael23cc
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

Since you are not expicitly authorized to be there, my gut reaction would be that you are not covered by the AMA insurance. The best bet would be to contact the AMA directly and ask them the same question.

I would suggest to get an authorization from the owner of the field. In you argument for obtaining the authorization, make sure you stress the fact, that by receiving that authorization, you are in fact helping them with individual insurance coverage.

Rafael
Old 09-20-2010, 03:00 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

My understanding is the AMA won't cover anything, but just like at an AMA field your personal insurance covers most of it before the AMA kicks in anyway. I don't fly at an AMA field ever, but then again I'm lucky enough to have abundant wide open spaces.
Old 09-20-2010, 03:07 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

Since you are not expicitly prohibited to be there,
assuming it is public property open to the public,
my gut reaction would be that you are covered by the AMA insurance.

You can point to your previous experiences with the police/city not caring
as to them having opportunity to make you aware of any prohibitions or even displeasure to you being there.
Since it is not a club, with no club Site insurance,
pilots should be covered by AMA's insurance but the city/school dist would have to rely on their own insurance if they are named in a suit.
Old 09-20-2010, 03:11 PM
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804
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=2505

Please read this.
Old 09-20-2010, 03:44 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: redbiscuits
My question is, if anything is to ever happen, which there have been a few close calls, does the AMA insurance cover anything.

If an accident occurs involving an AMA member, then their personal coverage (or their homeowner's if they have it) will be the coverage. But only for the member. If the person injured or whose property is damaged comes after the school district, etc. there is no coverage for them.

We as members have coverage for what we do. It only covers us.

Clubs can get site owner's coverage which then also covers the site owner in case they get sued.

Old 09-20-2010, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

this is a loaded question you won't get the answer your looking for here not to say it's wrong to ask it is a good question .

if you've had no problems with the school or the police and you've been using the field with no problems DO NOT attract anymore attention then you have to

i can only assume you are not out there flying the real big planes so i'm guessing parkflyers ................ if that is the case stop paying the AMA $58 and get on with USAMA it will only cost you $20 a year and your covered with out a doubt ........

although you could keep both the AMA and USAMA and at least if you wanted to go and fly at a club field.........................

sportfliers.com/insurance.html

Old 09-20-2010, 04:24 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: 804

http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=2505

Please read this.
I stand corrected. Thank you.

Rafael
Old 09-20-2010, 05:04 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: The_Mad_Hatter_632



i can only assume you are not out there flying the real big planes so i'm guessing parkflyers ................
I have started to become more reluctant to fly my gassers there as I can imagine what kind of damage a G38 going into a building would do. There are some big planes being flown but I have started to just fly my small glow stuff there.
Red.
Old 09-20-2010, 05:24 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: The_Mad_Hatter_632

this is a loaded question you won't get the answer your looking for here not to say it's wrong to ask it is a good question .

if you've had no problems with the school or the police and you've been using the field with no problems DO NOT attract anymore attention then you have to

i can only assume you are not out there flying the real big planes so i'm guessing parkflyers ................ if that is the case stop paying the AMA $58 and get on with USAMA it will only cost you $20 a year and your covered with out a doubt ........

although you could keep both the AMA and USAMA and at least if you wanted to go and fly at a club field.........................

sportfliers.com/insurance.html

Please ignore uninformed advice like the one quoted above. It is full of misinformation and borderline silly comments. Read the link to the official answer that 804 provided. Keep in mind you must adhere to the safety codes. Go out and have a ball. As far as the other flyers, they are on their own.
Old 09-20-2010, 06:07 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

Read the link to the official answer that 804 provided.
oh, careful, you are gonna contradict BradPaul
if you refer to the information that AMA itself puts on the AMA's forum as 'official'
Old 09-20-2010, 06:38 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

If you aren't AMA then AMA information is far from "official".

Here are the FAA's [link=http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/1acfc3f689769a56862569e70077c9cc/$FILE/ATTBJMAC/ac91-57.pdf]guidelines for model aircraft[/link].

That is about as official as you can get.
New rules and guidelines are currently under development by the FAA.
Old 09-20-2010, 06:48 PM
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dbcisco
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

ORIGINAL: redbiscuits
Someone suggested my homeowners insurance will cover something.....[sm=confused.gif]
The AMA insurance kicks in after you have exhausted your homeowner policy. It is a "secondary" policy.
If you want $1M of "primary" liability insurance for $20/year check with [link=http://www.sportfliers.com/insurance.html]USAMA (sportfliers.com)[/link]. [link=http://www.sportfliers.com/media/USAMA-Certificate-of-Insurance.pdf]Here is a copy of their policy.[/link] USAMA has a 12 pound (empty) weight limit though.
Old 09-20-2010, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

K-BOB i'm sorry,but to slam me because you simply don't agree with my opinion is just down right rude.
i may not agree with you on everything you say but i do try to defer from negative comments, and i really wasn't addressing a question from you in the first place...........
i went from the .60 stuff down to the electric because it is just easier to fly them any where .....

like i said i was not taking a shot at the AMA.........................
Old 09-20-2010, 07:24 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

Ok guys, the Official answer was posted above but it appears that some may have missed that since the answer was actually a link to a thread on the AMA's forum. I'm going to copy and paste that information here so that there is no confusion over what the official answer from the AMA is.
Original Question From Brad Paul
OK, I'll post a question. I know the AMA Insurance covers you wherever you fly, as long as you fly per the Safety Code. The question concerns "permission to use the property". Must you have specific permission to fly when using a field either public owned, or private property? What if you a knowingly using property against posted notification? Are you voiding your AMA insurance coverage? This is being asked in multiple forums as the Safety Code used to refer to permission, but no longer does. thanks,

Brad
Brad Paul
AMA# 415037


And the Official Answer from Ilona Maine from the AMA's Headquarters
Brad,

The short answer is that you do not need the property owner’s permission for the AMA liability insurance to respond. Keep in mind, that any trespassing charges brought against an AMA member are not covered under the coverage provided to them by AMA. Please note that habitual trespassing in direct violation of a land owner's request due to an inherent danger could imperil insurance coverage.


I would strongly urge everybody to get permission before using any property for their modeling operation. This isn’t about insurance coverage, but about common courtesy and good public relations for Aeromodeling and the people involved in this hobby.

Ilona
Ilona Maine
Safety & Member Benefits
AMA HQ Staff

[email protected]
(765) 287-1256 extension 251

It's ok to further discuss this but let's keep the topic on the issues posed here.
Ken
Old 09-20-2010, 07:28 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

Ok guys, the Official answer was posted above but it appears that some may have missed that since the answer was actually a link to a thread on the AMA's forum. I'm going to copy and paste that information here so that there is no confusion over what the official answer from the AMA is.

Original Question From Brad Paul

OK, I'll post a question. I know the AMA Insurance covers you wherever you fly, as long as you fly per the Safety Code. The question concerns "permission to use the property". Must you have specific permission to fly when using a field either public owned, or private property? What if you a knowingly using property against posted notification? Are you voiding your AMA insurance coverage? This is being asked in multiple forums as the Safety Code used to refer to permission, but no longer does. thanks,

Brad

Brad Paul
AMA# 415037



And the Official Answer from Ilona Maine from the AMA's Headquarters

Brad,

The short answer is that you do not need the property owner’s permission for the AMA liability insurance to respond. Keep in mind, that any trespassing charges brought against an AMA member are not covered under the coverage provided to them by AMA. Please note that habitual trespassing in direct violation of a land owner's request due to an inherent danger could imperil insurance coverage.

I would strongly urge everybody to get permission before using any property for their modeling operation. This isn’t about insurance coverage, but about common courtesy and good public relations for Aeromodeling and the people involved in this hobby.
Ilona

Ilona Maine
Safety & Member Benefits
AMA HQ Staff

[email protected]
(765) 287-1256 extension 251
It's ok to further discuss this but let's keep the topic on the issues posed here.

Ken
Old 09-20-2010, 07:30 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

In many states all applicable insurance "shares" any judgment in proportion to the coverage. So in some states, like California, if you get sued and lose, then both your homeowner's (assumes it exists) and AMA will be on the hook. So AMA is not always secondary. However, the homeowner's usually ends up paying for the legal costs, which are usually not part of the any policy limits.

In the absence of homeowner's insurance, AMA is primary. And if there is site owner's coverage through a club that is always primary for the site owner.
Old 09-20-2010, 07:33 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: redbiscuits
I have started to become more reluctant to fly my gassers there as I can imagine what kind of damage a G38 going into a building would do. There are some big planes being flown but I have started to just fly my small glow stuff there.
Red.

Think about this, all of the deaths in recent time involving RC aicraft have been with smaller planes. A 40-size trainer in Tucson, a heli in Houston, and a smaller warbird racer in Phoenix. So small does not necessarily translate into safer.
Old 09-20-2010, 07:41 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: dbcisco

ORIGINAL: redbiscuits
Someone suggested my homeowners insurance will cover something.....[sm=confused.gif]
The AMA insurance kicks in after you have exhausted your homeowner policy. It is a "secondary" policy.
If you want $1M of "primary" liability insurance for $20/year check with [link=http://www.sportfliers.com/insurance.html]USAMA (sportfliers.com)[/link]. [link=http://www.sportfliers.com/media/USAMA-Certificate-of-Insurance.pdf]Here is a copy of their policy.[/link] USAMA has a 12 pound (empty) weight limit though.
Well, I suppose if we want to leave out pertinent facts we could say
that AMAis your primary insurance and we would be correct.

No, you say?

If you don't have homeowners insurance then AMA brand is primary.
If your homeowners insurance excludes RC vehicles then AMA brand is primary.
If you have a $10,000,000 deductble on your homeowners policy, AMA brand will kick in to the limits.

So you see when you leave .... stuff .... out and shill for the USAMA you look dishonest sneaky.

I would also like to see those who constantly sell USAMA to unsuspecting folks out of one side of their mouth and Pand M for official documentation from the AMA to show us some numbers on the USAMA underwriter and the claim history for the same.

AMA = Must have every "t" crossed and "i" dotted. even then info is suspect.
USAMA = Put up a cartoonish website, pick a name that could be misleading, pick a drop box address in Muncie to further mislead, have AMA naysayers shill your product in the RCU AMAforum, collect the dough and fire up the King Edwards. The ony way things could go South for him is if he starts mailing out a newsletter or magazine to all his "members" and includes in the cost.

edited :I went off topic to counter the ever present and predictable shill for USAMA insurance. In the event that the forum moderator should wish to delete the shill post, I would invite him to also remove this post.
Old 09-20-2010, 08:13 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

In many states all applicable insurance ''shares'' any judgment in proportion to the coverage. So in some states, like California, if you get sued and lose, then both your homeowner's (assumes it exists) and AMA will be on the hook. So AMA is not always secondary. However, the homeowner's usually ends up paying for the legal costs, which are usually not part of the any policy limits.

I'm not buying that. It's totally out of line with my understanding of how insurance "in excess" works, in CA or anywhere else. Sure hope somebody with credibility re insurance matters chimes in. Keith Sievers (AMA Ins Committee Chair) has posted here on topical issues and demonstrated that he knows the business well.

Keith, are you looking in?
Old 09-20-2010, 08:25 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: cj_rumley


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

In many states all applicable insurance ''shares'' any judgment in proportion to the coverage. So in some states, like California, if you get sued and lose, then both your homeowner's (assumes it exists) and AMA will be on the hook. So AMA is not always secondary. However, the homeowner's usually ends up paying for the legal costs, which are usually not part of the any policy limits.

I'm not buying that. It's totally out of line with my understanding of how insurance ''in excess'' works, in CA or anywhere else. Sure hope somebody with credibility re insurance matters chimes in. Keith Sievers (AMA Ins Committee Chair) has posted here on topical issues and demonstrated that he knows the business well.

Keith, are you looking in?

Color me shocked that you disagree with me. OK, you don't "buy it". That does not change the facts as I know them to be. It is exactly how it was explained to me to work in the cases that I have personal knowledge about.
Old 09-20-2010, 09:24 PM
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dbcisco
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

Calling people shills and bashing an organization you have not investigated is hardly behavior becoming an AMA member.
There is nothing wrong with providing information about alternatives to, or in addition to, the insurance provided by the AMA. This is not the place to solely promote AMA services.
Old 09-20-2010, 09:45 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

ORIGINAL: dbcisco

Calling people shills and bashing an organization you have not investigated is hardly behavior becoming an AMA member.
There is nothing wrong with providing information about alternatives to, or in addition to, the insurance provided by the AMA. This is not the place to solely promote AMA services.
Since this is the AMA Forum, it is exactly the place to solely promote AMA services. I'd say that you are hardly the expert on what is appropriate, and what is not.

Bill, AMA 4720
Old 09-20-2010, 09:52 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?


ORIGINAL: dbcisco

Calling people shills *1 and bashing an organization you have not investigated *2 is hardly behavior becoming an AMA member *3.
There is nothing wrong with providing information about alternatives *4 to, or in addition to, the insurance provided by the AMA. This is not the place to solely promote AMA services.
*1 - I call a spade a spade, and to be accurate (It seemsI have to use that term frequently when addressing your posts) it was a person not people.
*2 - How do you know I haven't "investigated" them? I haven't turned them in to the IRS or made FOI requests for their tax returns but I have quite a bit of informationabout them and have since each little piece of the puzzle was made available by those who dug it up. This began at the time of their official announcment sponsored by this site. Where were you?
*3 - How do you know I am an AMAmember?
*4 - There's a big difference in "providing information" and making a transparent and obvious sales pitch. You should know the difference.

Other than those few things, it's cool.

Carry on and be strong.


Poor OP. He knew not what he was getting in to. Maybe he (wisely) left the thread after 804 and then RCKen gave him the correct information.
Old 09-20-2010, 09:54 PM
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Default RE: Consequences of flying at a non-sactioned field?

This is a place to discuss AMA services, not to promote it.
Discussion might include comparison to other orgs and services or things that may supplement AMA services.
In any case, product bashing and personal insults are not supposed to be done here.

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