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Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

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Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

Old 10-05-2010, 01:34 PM
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K-Bob
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Default Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

This subject was brought up off-topic in another thread. I think it would be a good discussion item.

1. Does the AMArequire flying sites to be AMA only as some have alledged or do they only require that AMAchartered clubs be AMA only?

2. Is the purpose ofthe AMAonly chartered club rule to create AMA only flying sites?

3. Can AMAmembers/AMA chartered clubs coexist with non-AMA members or even AMA members that do not want to join the club?

1. - No. Only the club has the AMA only requirement. The landowner is the only one who can control who flys there.
2. - No. As it is a matter of opinion as to their intent, no evidence I have encountered makes me think they do.
3. - Yes. It happens quite frequently in one form or another.In my club's situation it is a hybrid. You do not have to join the club but you do have to have AMA(PPP-OK)
Old 10-05-2010, 01:54 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

AMA club charter kit, pg 21
AMA members and clubs pool their resources in order to obtain insurance for themselves and their flying site owners at very low rates. This is a key point to keep in mind when considering the use of club flying sites by non-AMA members. If a flying site owner relies on your insurance for an accident caused on its property by a non-AMA member, your money is being spent to finance the activities of someone who paid nothing for that benefit.

To preserve the availability of low cost insurance to your club and its site owner, the people who fly with your club should contribute their share of that cost. They can do so by becoming dues paying members of your AMA charter club as well. In the same vein, if the landowner for your club’s chartered club field has granted the club exclusive flying privileges, the club should ONLY allow AMA members and current members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) to fly at the field. If your club is flying on public land and it has not been granted exclusive flying rights by the public agency in charge, your club activities should be confined to AMA members, and you are not responsible for other (non-AMA) flier’s actions. Should the public agency be named as an additional insured, it has coverage only for the actions of your club, its members, and other visiting AMA members who are considered guests.
AMA underlined the words 'your',
and AMA used all caps for the term 'ONLY'... I dont think it was all caps by mistake or on a whim, they MEANT it

Do we think that clubs using this kit will say
'bah, forget what AMA says we SHOULD do... Lets do something else'
Old 10-05-2010, 02:07 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

ORIGINAL: K-Bob
3. - Yes. It happens quite frequently in one form or another. In my club's situation it is a hybrid. You do not have to join the club but you do have to have AMA(PPP-OK)
Where I used to fly, it was a public r/c flying park, No AMA required, but 2-3 clubs also use the field to put on events, to be in the Clubs or fly at the events, you need AMA.

Everyone gets along fine with the exception of when "Club members" act in an elitist way towards the non-club members,, this is the only friction. They sometimes act as if they Own the field more than the non club members do. But, no one has killed anyone in 50+ years the field has been there, but there have been words. I was one of the non club members if you're wondering
Old 10-05-2010, 02:08 PM
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tinner1
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

the club should ONLY allow AMA members and current members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) to fly at the field.
and AMA used all caps for the term 'ONLY'... I dont think it was all caps by mistake or on a whim, they MEANT it
You forgot the word 'SHOULD" in your post. The AMA never said "HAS TO" anywhere I could see. It looked like they went on to say non-club/AMA members weren't covered.....What did I miss?
Old 10-05-2010, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

man o man
I take you off the lil red hand, and look at what you post

You forgot the word 'SHOULD" in your post.
No, no I didnt.
when I said the word 'only' was in all caps,
nowhere in the pasted in AMA text does the word 'should' appear in all caps.

However, if you wanted me to use the word 'should' in what I typed
I DID!
Do we think that clubs using this kit will say
'bah, forget what AMA says we SHOULD do... Lets do something else'
hey, lookit that... its even in ALL CAPS when I typed it,
yet you missed it and complain about me not using the word should


You are SOOooo going back on Lil Red Hand.
Old 10-05-2010, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

I've experience several different situations.

First- Field identified, leased, developed, operated, and maintened by an AMA club on private property exclusively for Club Members use with a guest policy, requirement that guests must have AMA to fly or fly on a buddy box with an approved club Introductory Pilot.(My club in Frederick Maryland, and a club in Kansas City, Desert Eagles in Idaho Falls, ID)

Second - Field owned by local government but leased to an AMA club, similar to first situation. (Tricity Radio Control in Richland Washington, Knox County Radio Control in Tennessee, Red Barons in Idaho Falls, ID)

Third - Field owned and maintained by the local government on park land donated with stipulation that it be kept as a flying field in perpetuity. Multiple AMA clubs in the area that use the field, but no requirement for AMA or club membership to fly at the field. (Albuquerque, NM, Carlsbad NM)

Fourth - Field owned by local government on park land donated as a flying site, ama chartered club that establishes safety rules and maintains field. AMA membership required to fly, but not club membership (Bennet Field in Henderson NV)

Each of these situations has plusses and minuses. In the case of fields owned by the local government, they have been able to install and maintain some very nice facilities (irrigation, shelters, paved runways). Unfortnately, those sites with the most open flying policies (either no membership or no AMA required) in my opinion had very lax safety habits, and were not pleasant experiences from a flying perspective. In one case at Bennet Field, there was almost open hostility between the heli flyers at one end of the field and the fixed wing pilots at the other end. People would fly their aircraft from wherever the pleased, including leaning against the fence between the pit and the spectator area. If the pilot stations were full, they just didn't bother. Landings and takeoffs weren't announced, and it wasn't uncommon for there to be 8-10 planes in the air at one time, with little or no communication between the pilots.

From my perspective, AMA and non-AMA can coexist, but only if there is a single authority responsible for ensuring safety rules are followed. Whether that authority is given to an AMA club, or the local government wants to take it on doesn't matter, but it must be actively enforced.

For my money, maintaining a club membership with a controlled club field is the best arrangement. And I think that's what the AMA is trying to maintain as the optimum situation, particularly if they're assuming all or part of the liability through the insurance program.

Brad
Old 10-05-2010, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

ORIGINAL: tinner1

the club should ONLY allow AMA members and current members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) to fly at the field.
and AMA used all caps for the term 'ONLY'... I dont think it was all caps by mistake or on a whim, they MEANT it
You forgot the word 'SHOULD'' in your post. The AMA never said ''HAS TO'' anywhere I could see. It looked like they went on to say non-club/AMA members weren't covered.....What did I miss?
C'mon tinner, if you're really concerned about preserving the meaning in context then cite the whole sentence like KE did.

He even knew what the response would be before you replied........
"Do we think that clubs using this kit will say
'bah, forget what AMA says we SHOULD do... Lets do something else' "

The meaning of "landowner for your club’s chartered club field has granted the club exclusive flying privileges" should be clear to the most challenged 3rd grade SpEd. What part of "exclusive" is ambiguous?
Old 10-05-2010, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

Let's see, FAA guidelines are ignored because they aren't "rules", but AMA "shoulds" will be interpreted as "musts" by many people.
Actually a club can do anything they want. The worst that will happen is the AMA will tell you your insurance isn't covering it if something goes wrong.
As for sharing, that was part of a dispute between the AMA and a competitor org. that was settled out of court so we will never know what the truth was.
Most of the AMA chartered clubs I have read about so far do not allow anyone but AMA members to fly at fields they control. Very vague as to why that is. My guess the insurance is the reason (possible excuse for some?).
Old 10-05-2010, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

Both clubs I belong to are on land that belongs to the local park district, it is public land. The park district requires anyone flying at either field to be AMA members.
Old 10-05-2010, 03:39 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

There is probably an issue with local Govts supporting only one org.
Image if a State passed a law that you had to have Allstate insurance and Ford cars to drive on their roads, it would be slapped down in a minute.
However, until some ACLU lawyer or rich non-AMA flyer gets it into the courts, they can do anything they want. That doesn't just apply to the AMA nor is it the fault of the AMA. We recently threw our out local incumbents over road maintenace so our hobby has low priority as far as politics are concerned, unless somone with influence "pushes" the issue.
Old 10-05-2010, 03:40 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

The field in the Sepulveda Basin Park in Los Angeles has both AMA and non-AMA pilots flying there. The City does not require any sort of proof of insurance from anyone who uses the site. However, the City does require that AMA chartered clubs to provide a certificate of insurance to the City. Anyone who wants to belong to one of those clubs is required to be an AMA member. When an AMA sanctioned event is held only AMA members can participate.

But the two groups seem to coexist perfectly fine most of the time.
Old 10-05-2010, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

The field in the Sepulveda Basin Park in Los Angeles has both AMA and non-AMA pilots flying there. The City does not require any sort of proof of insurance from anyone who uses the site. However, the City does require that AMA chartered clubs to provide a certificate of insurance to the City. Anyone who wants to belong to one of those clubs is required to be an AMA member. When an AMA sanctioned event is held only AMA members can participate.

But the two groups seem to coexist perfectly fine most of the time.
When those clubs want to pull a permit to reserve the Field,, not just to exist,

btw,, Same field I'm talking about in my post above,,
Old 10-05-2010, 03:59 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

I never said YOU used caps.....I put "should" in caps for emphasis, nothing else. The context of my post was that the AMA was not saying "has to" as to the users of the field "having to be AMA members." It was my impression that the "kit" YOU quoted was from the AMA guidelines for chartering, and it in no place said that users "had" to be AMA members, but it did say they "should" be AMA members as a requirement. THAT is what I was referring to when I commented on your post.

As to you cj_rumley, and your comment...
The meaning of "landowner for your club’s chartered club field has granted the club exclusive flying privileges" should be clear to the most challenged 3rd grade SpEd.
I wouldn't know what you mean, having NOT been a member of the "3rd grade SpEd" group YOU seem to have "personal" experience with.....Maybe YOU should post the WHOLE sentence......

In the same vein, if the landowner for your club’s chartered club field has granted the club exclusive flying privileges, the club should ONLY allow AMA members and current members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) to fly at the field.
In context you are wrong even by your 3rd grade education standard....It still says "should only allow AMA members", never does it say you "have to"......
Old 10-05-2010, 04:06 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

dbcisco
There is probably an issue with local Govts supporting only one org.
There are plenty of examples of public land being used to support one organization, or even one individual. My guess is the only organizations that would be prohibited would be churches. For example, how many farmers lease parkland to grow crops in Pennsylvania? Plenty. Who gets the profit, or who suffers the loss from those crops? The Farmer, not the park authority. In the same vein, many clubs have entered into lease arrangements with local park authorities for use of the land. In some cases, the land has actually been deeded to the local authority with stipulations that the land remain under the control of the local club. Its perfectly legal, and is a great way to ensure the flying field remains open and safe, while also relieving the local club of property tax burdens. The only time it would be a problem is if the land were being used for purposes that were not in the interest of the public good. But thats for the local authorities to determine on a case by case basis.

There was actually a case here in Maryland where the DCRC had used a field owned by the County Park Commission for many years. The park commission decided to convert the field into a Soccer-plex. DCRC worked with the park commission to identify another field that would suit the club purposes. The club not only gets to use the field, but anyone wishing to fly there must have an AMA membership and pass a flight proficiency test. They don't have to be club members, but the club administers the flight proficiency test.

Brad
Old 10-05-2010, 04:10 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

The Metro parks surrounding Cleveland are public lands but just try to ride you bicycle on a "bridal" path and see what happens. Public land does often have "exclusions" for certain organizations or groups.....
Old 10-05-2010, 05:14 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?


ORIGINAL: tinner1

The Metro parks surrounding Cleveland are public lands but just try to ride you bicycle on a ''bridal'' path and see what happens. Public land does often have ''exclusions'' for certain organizations or groups.....
So in Cleveland only one livery company is allowed to use the path?

A bridle path, also called a bridle road or bridleway, is a trail originally made for horses, but which these days serves a wide range of interests. For example they frequently serve hikers, walkers and cyclists as well as equestrians.
Old 10-05-2010, 05:26 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

So the bridle path is exlusively for what livery stable?
Old 10-05-2010, 05:40 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?


ORIGINAL: tinner1

In the same vein, if the landowner for your club’s chartered club field has granted the club exclusive flying privileges, the club should ONLY allow AMA members and current members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) to fly at the field.
In context you are wrong even by your 3rd grade education standard....It still says ''should only allow AMA members'', never does it say you ''have to''......
How hard is this....never mind what AMA says, what the landowner and the agreement made with him says is what counts (well, that's what counts for me). If he has granted use of his property exclusively to an AMA club (because that is what was asked for, probably due to a scare story about liability), and AMA mandates club members must be AMA members, where does that leave non-AMA members wrt use of the property? Tell us the club SHOULD use their own discretion as to allowing non-AMA members to fly there.
Old 10-05-2010, 06:26 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

It is all depending on the terms of the agreement with the landowner. If the insurance comes through the AMA Club then the AMA REQUIRES that to participate in club flying activities that the member be an AMA Member.

From the AMA Club Roster Form:

Academy of Model Aeronautics
5161 E. Memorial Drive Muncie IN 47302
Club Roster Form
Each and every member of the club who participates in club flying activities MUST be an
AMA member—Junior, Senior, Open, Park Pilot, Three-Month Trial, or Affiliate—or be a current member
of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC).


Brad
Old 10-05-2010, 06:34 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

Tell us the club SHOULD use their own discretion as to allowing non-AMA members to fly there
.
THAT WAS my whole point all along! The AMA says the clubs "should" be AMA members, but does not say they "have" to be club members. Your sentence I quoted above is exactly what the AMA charter rules say.....are we clear with each other now?

So the bridle path is exlusively for what livery stable?
I never said the bridal trails were exclusive to any perticular stable, only that no non-aquestrian/horse riders, or in this case bicycles, were alowed on them. Lets not try to change the meaning of my post. I posted it to show that a public piece of property could be made exclusive to certain parties with others not able to use it. For example as it applies to parks and model airplanes here....The city can ban RC planes but still allow walkers to use the park. One is excluded and the other is not. A lot of public parks around here prohibit golfers practicing at them, but people can play baseball. The lists can go on forever.......
Old 10-05-2010, 06:49 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

First, it is bridle, not bridal path.

Second, designating public areas for particular uses, like no cars on sidewalks, is much different from requiring membership in a single organization for exclusive access to public park services. Ever seen a sign at a public park saying "Rotary Club Membership required."? Nope, never will, except an AMA club can apparently get away with it.

Your example lends nothing to the issue being discussed. Try a different example.
Old 10-05-2010, 06:56 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?


ORIGINAL: tinner1

Tell us the club SHOULD use their own discretion as to allowing non-AMA members to fly there
.
THAT WAS my whole point all along! The AMA says the clubs ''should'' be AMA members, but does not say they ''have'' to be club members. Your sentence I quoted above is exactly what the AMA charter rules say.....are we clear with each other now?
I'd like for us to be clear with each other, but not quite there yet.

Can you provide an example, real or hypothetical, of circumstances where it would it proper, sensible, ethical, etc., for an AMA chartered club to extend flying privileges to non-AMA members (excepting AMA permitted once-per-lifetime buddy-box guests and noobs in the Intro Pilot Program) at a privately owned site where there is an agreement with the landowner for exclusive use by the AMA club?

Old 10-05-2010, 07:03 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

His example is fine for the point he was making,

Must you try and derail each and every thread?

This last argument is especially ridiculous
The reason the Clubs "get away with it" is that they are meeting the requirements demanded of them by the Public Park or Land Owner,
I'd say you need to come up with a better example
Old 10-05-2010, 07:07 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

Private land (owned, rented or leased with exclusivity) = Private use and rules
Public land (esp. open park lands and public park services) = Public use and rules (caveat: local govts can be very stupid)
Old 10-05-2010, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: Flying Sites. Can AMA and Non-AMA flyers co-exist?

scale only 4 me, THANK YOU!! I'm glad someone can see my point. Different topic would require a different point. Again, Thank You Sir.....

Don

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