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Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

Old 02-06-2011, 08:10 AM
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Silent-AV8R
 
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

Here is Dave's response about the two documents that started this thread:

Those documents were created, in part, as position papers to help our
lobbyist when creating awareness for our cause with elected representatives.
They were created in late October, early November and came right on the
heels of what we feel was a low point for us in the process - the September
29th meeting with UAPO.

Since that time, things have somewhat improved, and what you heard at the
Expo is more reflective of where we are today. We do believe that some of
the concerns expressed in those papers may still be issues that could appear
in the proposed (default) rule, but we are working to address those
particular issues in our standards.

That page on our website is a compilation of most all the AMA documents that
speak to the sUAS regulatory process. Things change, sometimes rapidly.
Thinking about this, it might be helpful to place a disclaimer on that page
indicating that there has been a significant ebb and flow to the process and
the latest documents should be considered an indicator of where things are
at the moment.
Dave
Old 02-06-2011, 08:11 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

well, on the bright side we did hire a lobbyist last year

thats kinda 'louder and stand stronger' than before we did reported lobbying
Old 02-06-2011, 08:55 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

well, on the bright side we did hire a lobbyist last year

thats kinda 'louder and stand stronger' than before we did reported lobbying
Maybe they need a team pressing/lobbying? Not sure, but there may be some retired guys that would gladly take this sort of thing on. I know things like this take a real "drive" to keep pressing in to keep awareness on the top of the priority list. There have been lesser causes that have been pushed by small numbers.
Old 02-06-2011, 09:05 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

Here is Dave's response about the two documents that started this thread:

Since that time, things have somewhat improved, and what you heard at the
Expo is more reflective of where we are today. We do believe that some of
the concerns expressed in those papers may still be issues that could appear
in the proposed (default) rule, but we are working to address those
particular issues in our standards
.

Dave
oh goody, we dont need to worry,
its only folks that dont pay muncie that will be hosed by the regs [:@][:'(]
Old 02-06-2011, 10:03 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

I think that these two documents were written to show the FAA that the AMA was not going to just stand by and let them do what they wanted. It is to my understanding that late November, the FAA board was replaced with all new members. More of the members are or where RC pilots. These two documents to me look like a call to arms sort of thing. It looks like the FAA saw the writing on the wall. That is why in early January, at the convention, you saw two organizations showing a mutual repect for each other.

AMA officails at the AMA convention discussion on the FAA concluded that no part of Model Aviation would be left behind. I think this to be true. These groups in question have not posed a major threat to anyone. I do think that a very few of the turbine guys are making it bad for all the rest (pushing the envelope will eventualy end in a very bad accident). The AMA officials didn't say much about what was coming, but they did say that they wouldn't let these groups be extinguished for the good of the rest.

I think that the FAA are targeting certain aspects of the RC aircraft world:

1.The aircraft that are flown by cameras (My label) are a big part of what the FAA are after. It makes sense. The limited visibility of the pilots makes them dangerious. To be able to use this system to target is another danger!!!

2.The pilots who choose to fly where they want without regaurd to public safety. The so called park fliers. Not all of them, the few that think they have the right to be there and no one else does. They fly with no regaurd to who is around them or without the aid of a spotter. In this case public safety is a big concern.

3.The groups that fly without AMA guidance. We have a group that flies at a location not made to be a flying area. It is only on Saturday or Sunday when there are very few people around. The problem is that you have a bunch of independent thinking pilots that fly the way they want to with no set of rules. Eventually, someone will get hurt. A lot of us in the area will not fly there because of the lack of respect for there fellow pilots.

I think it is to early to make judgements on this. We have no real information on what the regulations are. These regulations will have teeth though. I think that there will be a specific set of rules that will carry consiquences. I think that the FAA will inforce the rules three ways. The first being after a major accident. The second is when they are notified of something happening that shouldn't be (like what happens in full scale when one pilot does something that everyone else knows is against the rules). The third is when they happen to see it.

As for the rules that we are afraid of. There just is no real information coming out that there will be restrictions that don't allready exist (with the exception of the three things listed above).It is odvious that the rules that the AMA suggest work. With the amount of aircraft in the air at one time (full scale and model) it is amazing that there are not more accidents than there has been. Why wouldn't the FAA adopt what works? Why wouldn't they take what works and make them a clearer set of rules than what is in place? Once they are in place, then there will be clear consequences to those who choose to brake there rules. I think they are taking very vauge suggestions and making them clearer rules.



Old 02-06-2011, 10:05 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

It still seems to me that the FAA has to have some baseline set of operational limits. Then a CBO can present their own standards for review and hopeful acceptance by the FAA which will grant more liberal operational limits. But the FAA has to proceed as if there are no CBOs and no CBO generated standards.
OMG
an amazing thing happened when I said that over at the AMA board

To be accurate what you were posting on the AMA board was questioning if the AMA was a CBO, not if there were no CBO standards. I know you wanted to make it seem like they were the same thing but they are not. Regardless of whether or not their standards get accepted by the FAA, the AMA is still considered a CBO.

An you worry about me keeping track of YOUR posts. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, don't ya think
Old 02-06-2011, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

oh goody, we dont need to worry,
its only folks that dont pay muncie that will be hosed by the regs [:@][:'(]
I only stop by this AMA section of the forum once in a while, but I gotta ask, for a guy that seems to posts frequently (understatement), do you remember all the posts that talked about CBOs creating FAA accepted guidelines that anyone, not just members of the particular CBO, could follow to satisfy the new regulations?
Old 02-06-2011, 10:12 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
oh goody, we dont need to worry,
its only folks that dont pay muncie that will be hosed by the regs [:@][:'(]
I'm good with that.

Old 02-06-2011, 11:05 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

Well, if the FAA rule making process happens it will be like when the goverment made 55MPH the national speed limit.
We all turned into law breakers from time to time.
Old 02-06-2011, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

I know so little about this other than what I read here and there. But has there been any rumors of putting a cap on huge airplanes?

I know everyone is getting bigger and better. I am worried they might finally just put a nationwide size restriction no matter who you are and where you fly..
Old 02-06-2011, 11:28 AM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

ORIGINAL: modelflyer5

3.The groups that fly without AMA guidance. We have a group that flies at a location not made to be a flying area. It is only on Saturday or Sunday when there are very few people around. The problem is that you have a bunch of independent thinking pilots that fly the way they want to with no set of rules. Eventually, someone will get hurt. A lot of us in the area will not fly there because of the lack of respect for there fellow pilots.


If it is a private field/area they don't need too follow AMA rules and regulations, no law that says such, It's their problem if something happens and no concern of the AMA or anyone else, period............ Big difference between AMA and FAA.
Old 02-06-2011, 12:42 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

I only stop by this AMA section of the forum once in a while, but I gotta ask, for a guy that seems to posts frequently (understatement), do you remember all the posts that talked about CBOs creating FAA accepted guidelines that anyone, not just members of the particular CBO, could follow to satisfy the new regulations?
ahh,
you are talking about when USAmA/Clem&Cletus/AnyCBO may issue Turbine CBOwaiver to their members(& nonmembers)
by simply following the same standards AMA uses to issue Turbine CBOWaivers to its members

yeah, folks got bent outta shape when I brought that up,
seems they waffle on there being other paths outside of AMA,
starting with their indeterminate determination that AMA is already meeting the unwritten regs to BE a cbo,
with a mocking 'good luck' to any other group meeting those same unspecified requirements to be a cbo

By their posted cbo definition, my bowling team is already a cbo,
so clearly my bowling team may write Turbine CBOwaivers following the way AMA does it (AMA's CBO Standards)



Also,
you may want to look up some of them old discussions on "participating within" in regard to this matter
as to the whole 'Nonmembers may follow CBO standards' concept.
Old 02-06-2011, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

I don't know what makes everybody thinks orgs are the best thing since sliced bread. Look around people, at all of the business, orgs, govt entitys, corporations, LLC's that are in the news under investigation for fraud, embezzelment, an all kind of other illegal things.

Lemmings will never know when they march off the cliff, because they are always kept in the dark






edit change spelling an correct wording
Old 02-06-2011, 04:17 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

Sheeple
Old 02-06-2011, 04:20 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

The group that I am talking about is on public property.

If you are on your own land, yes it is all on you. The second you fly, land, or crash on someone elses or public land. All bets are off. If you fly on your own land, why wouldn't you follow rules that have proven to work. Take your chances with your own land and your neighbors. I'm sure that they will appreciate you for it. I know of a guy that flies over his own land, he lost control of his plane and crashed at his neighbors house. It burnt three acres of his neighbors land. Law suites are pending.
Old 02-06-2011, 04:25 PM
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Thomas B
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

Being part of an organizaton does not automatically make people "sheeple" or "lemmings", no more than not being a member of something makes someone the equivalent of an ostrich with their head stuck in the ground to avoid trouble.

Groups of individuals and their organizations can be heard and can get things done.

Recently, the model rocket folks, through their two main organizations, the National Association of Rocketry and Tripoli, won a long running lawsuit with the BATF over unfair classification of certain types of composite model rocket fuel. These regulations were crippling their hobby. They fought the government and they won. There have been other battles mentinoed in various FAA regs threads like this one concerning groups fighting the FAA...aircraft maintainers and the AOPA have both gotten the FAA to back down from NPRMs.
Old 02-06-2011, 04:36 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

Agreed......Common sense goes a long way when doing anything, period. No one needs to join any organization to know this, if they do they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Personal responsibility is not negated by an organization, just that the AMA supplies insurance with membership when flying within guidelines.
By the way, I have been an AMA member for over 40 years....Older than most hear now...

ORIGINAL: modelflyer5

I know of a guy that flies over his own land, he lost control of his plane and crashed at his neighbors house. It burnt three acres of his neighbors land. Law suites are pending.
What is the point??? Do you drive a car, maybe you shouldn't, might hit your neighbor?? I guess anyone can have an accident,,,,,, better have insurance. Right???
You missed the whole point in that the AMA (organization) is not the FAA (federal regulatory agency) People are still free to do anything they want (right or wrong) and if deemed wrong by the powers that be, will suffer the consequences...........If you want AMA coverage, simply follow the guidelines..
Old 02-06-2011, 05:25 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

I know of a guy that flies over his own land, he lost control of his plane and crashed at his neighbors house. It burnt three acres of his neighbors land. Law suites are pending
There is no requirement to fly at a club to receive full AMA member privileges & protections for your flying.
There is nothing inherently wrong with flying safely on your own land, AMA dont mind you doing it.


What about
the guys that are currently flying on their own property, that are AMA members and obey the current AMA safetycode.
Are they flying safely?
When the FAA lays down some bans and restrictions in the future, but the guy just continues flying exactly the same way regardless,
is he still flying safe?
What if he stops sending checks to Muncie, but continues flying the same way
is he still flying safely?
Old 02-06-2011, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: modelflyer5

The group that I am talking about is on public property.

If you are on your own land, yes it is all on you. The second you fly, land, or crash on someone elses or public land. All bets are off. If you fly on your own land, why wouldn't you follow rules that have proven to work. Take your chances with your own land and your neighbors. I'm sure that they will appreciate you for it. I know of a guy that flies over his own land, he lost control of his plane and crashed at his neighbors house. It burnt three acres of his neighbors land. Law suites are pending.
How many in this group are AMA members? (Or has anyone checked)
Old 02-06-2011, 05:58 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

Get on the phone and call your Senator.
Old 02-06-2011, 07:31 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

There is no requirement to join the AMA. There never will be. My suggestion is that everyone should fly with the rules in mind that the AMA suggests. I am an AMA member. It is upsetting to fly at my local field and witness other members breaking the rules. Instances that can lead to mishaps minor or major.

I don't care if your an AMA member or not. I don't have the privledge to fly on or over my own land. I wish you happiness and hope that you are safe with your flying.

As in the case of the guy being reponsible for burning his neighbors property, he is a AMA member who flies at our field. He owns his own land so his home owners insurance will be reponsible. What hurts, is that this has caused more people in the world believing that RC aircraft should not be flying at all. If he was flying at a field with a nice big fly over area and crashed then he would probably be the victom of a few jokes. Nothing more. When you fly, you fly with everyone on your shoulders. The more bad accidents that happen that involve victims that aren't in the hobby, the more people there will be to ban this hobby.

The FAA will not be able to stop you from flying over your land unless you are a danger to the people around you. It is up to you to not be dangerious. Thats all.

I am a member of two clubs. The first club was under the threat of loosing there field for three years. They actually lucked out and were able to keep there field in the final moments of loosing it. The second club lost there field all together. We are fighting for that while looking for another location. I know how easy it is to not be able to fly anywhere. Please, have respect for those who have to find somewhere to enjoy there hobby and be safe. For everyones sake.

A quick note. The FAA will not be an enemy until you make them one. If you fly safely, and have an accident, then that is one thing. If you are not flying safely not paying attention to suggested rules and not caring about what could happen. That is when the FAA will respond and report on what happend. It will be up to the judge on what to do with you. Again, they will have clear rules in which to follow for everyones safety. They won't need to inforce them, because eventually your style of piloting will get you in trouble with some policing agency that will have the power to stop you.
Old 02-06-2011, 07:35 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: drdoom

Get on the phone and call your Senator.
Why would I want to call my Senator? Do you think he knows the answer as to how many are AMA members?
Old 02-06-2011, 07:40 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

I guess your right we should all set back and watch it all go away...
Old 02-06-2011, 07:47 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations


ORIGINAL: drdoom

I guess your right we should all set back and watch it all go away...
May I ask just what in the heck you are talking about?
Old 02-06-2011, 08:01 PM
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Default RE: Interesting newly posted AMA documents concerning the FAA regulations

ORIGINAL: modelflyer5

I don't care if your an AMA member or not. I don't have the privledge to fly on or over my own land. I wish you happiness and hope that you are safe with your flying.


I do believe you have the right to fly over your own land, and no other aircraft can legally fly within 500 ft of you or your house except for landing, take off, etc. If you don't live right next to an airport there should be no law prohibiting you from that.......Maybe that is why we have the 400ft ceiling guideline

A quick note. The FAA will not be an enemy until you make them one.

Not saying they ARE the enemy, unless they impose overly restrictive rules on our hobby due to the need to regulate the UAV industry. Lets say you owned a model turbine jet engine manufacturing business and they outlawed turbine models, I am sure they would not be your best friend

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