J_R

pinball

Minor correction.

Marc Vigod, aka RCadmin, made the decision. I support it wholeheartedly. I have nothing to do with the administration of RCU. He does. The forum is moderated, but, not to the extent that all others are.

JR

vpresley

My Feedback: (162)

For me it has never been about putting a label on the perception of the actions, that indicates your attitude, stance (usually rigid), etc. You seem to like to label then judge. Its about the method used. Always has been.

Vince

GrnBrt

My Feedback: (5)

This forum is moderated but a lot of leeway is given and this is over the line, stay on track or posts like this one will disappear.

Sport_Pilot

It sure had drifted pretty far from why AMA officials don't use E-mail.

J_R

I don't think e-mail was what Red had in mind. Every EC member, save one, uses e-mail. JM definitely does. It's posting on open forums, such as RCU, that Red was addressing.

JR

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

I am sure that is exactly what Red was referring to, however I also convinced that the EC as a group gets tired of being blasted when they do the best job possible within the constraints of the position they hold. Please do not misunderstand what I am saying as this is NOT defending any particular one but an attempt at protecting the institution from ourselves.

Many of the observations Red has made are aggressive even if they are correct. Everyone I see them I am reminded of the old saw we learned when being taught to drive. The other guy may have the YIELD sign and you can be dead right. So I have concluded that another approach needs to be used. As far as I can tell, Red has come to a similar conclusion but is still a bit stronger in his observations than many. No problem, he knows it and he is working on it so WE need to help rather than hinder the goals.

Let me say it another way. In my opinion, the EC has taken too many actions with extremely limited input from the membership. It is difficult for there to be a communications channel when everything is one way except for specialized instances. Forums such as these represent a great way to get input but require an EC member of normal intelligence and with a willingness to put up with the extraneous horse manure that comes with the job anyway AND the courage of his convictions. Unfortunately most, but NOT ALL presently on the EC meet those criteria. Forums such as this are great places for give and take and education of folks to all sides of any issue, but listening and not sharing thoughts is only a little bit better than not having a computer.

The problem is that because many us seem unable (or is it unwilling) separate the wheat from the chaff and stay in attack mode all the time, so most EC members just monitor but rarely if ever speak in these environs. As a group we need to address this issue as there MUST be an improvement in the communications channel within the AMA. Unless we all want the AMA EC group to be a bunch of insiders and good old boys who don't deal with the pond scum membership in any way other than a command position.

I don't think Easytiger, Sport Pilot, or VInce have a lock on what is right and what is wrong, but they do have a clue as to what is reasonable human interaction. Hard questions need to be asked AND answered by many, but that need not be reason for name calling which many seem to be willing to do.

/end soapbox mode.

MustangFan

Hey Jim .... errrrr .... Mr. Jim Branaum !
( I must treat a future VP with respect )

I found you here .... you are the one ... good luck !

Nice SoapBox speech I must say.

Bullitt

I've been a member of the AMA less than a month. About the only thing I know about the current organization is what I've just read on this thread, and I've read every word. I am absolutely an outsider, looking in, with no preconceived opinions about anyone on this post. I don't know anything about this person who is VP or any specifics of the transgressions he has committed. As VP he has taken a position of responsibility within the organization, of which I am now a member. His actions are a reflection of each and every member, if they voted for him or not. It appears he feels he is in a position to ignore, what seem to be, legitimate questions from his constituents, concerning his integrity. He serves at the pleasure of the people in the organization he represents, and his job is to represent us and improve and expand the organization by representing our interests in a professional way. I see there are some accusing the questioners of being blatantly aggressive. If individuals are leveling false accusations toward him, he has an obligation to respond, else we have a right to believe the accusations are true. I applaud the individuals who stick their necks out to fight this and then have take the abuse, IF they have a legitimate question. If these accusations are true, or if they are not, and he doesn't feel "obligated" to respond to them, then this person does not feel responsible to the organization and the people he represents. If that is the case, he really doesn't represent the AMA members, and should stop presenting himself as a person that does.

Oh, and one more thing. Before you start shouting "McCarthy!" you may want to read a bit of history about a certain person named Alger Hiss. He was a top state department official and a most trusted Aide of Roosevelt. Hiss advised FDR at Yalta and is credited with advising him to give up Poland to Russia for no apparent reason. The reason was, he was a Russian spy. All this was confirmed from documents relased by the USSR after the cold war. The truth is that McCarthy, Nixon and a certain double agent named Chambers, saved our butts, by exposing what was going on in FDRs government. McCarthy is a hero in my opinion.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

"I've been a member of the AMA less than a month. About the only thing I know about the current organization is what I've just read on this thread, and I've read every word."

And you STILL know nothing about AMA.
The reality is there is a small handful of cranks who rant on about how awful the AMA is on the internet. The same guys have been doing it for years. Goes back to three or four websites before RCU even existed.
You know what? Nobody cares.
Go down to your local flying field and see what people REALLY say about the AMA.
Or see how they vote. If you read the internet, you would think that there was this major wave of dissent...it's a complete crock.
Don't beleive everything you read on the internet...or everything you read about Tailgunner Joe, either.

Joatmon

I find it telling when a well penned response such as Bullit's is next met with such contrite diatribe. May I point out that the largest tsunami begins with a single drop of rain. Counting the posters IDs, looks like the drops are forming a trickle.

I was a member of an organization for twenty years where membership is not mandatory, but required if you ever by chance need the "protection" they may feel like providing, need I say Teamsters. So my experience is whenever (and I am emphatic about whenever) someone ducks, skips, avoids, evades, dodges, eludes (need I go on) a fairly important question, then character is suspect. The total lack of an answer would make a great distinction in a member's ability to accurately judge a candidate's moral fiber.

BTW, the opinion at the field about the AMA - " They provide insurance, hope it pays when I need it 'cause they made me join to be a member here." Great comment about an association supposedly protecting the hobby interests of its members.

Hossfly

>>>>>>>>>>
Don't beleive everything you read on the internet...or everything you read about Tailgunner Joe, either.

vpresley

My Feedback: (162)

Hi

After reading your statement, it seems your premise is: "If he doesn't answer, it must be true"? I have not found this to be the case most of the time. I have not seen an AMA rule that states "DVPs must reply to all internet posts" either. HOSS correct me if im wrong on that. Before you take a position, do some independent checking, using other sources than you see here. Might make for a more fair decision making process.

Vince

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

ET, don't think for a minute that the folks over at the AMA don't pay attention to these forums.

J_R

Your right. And I will tell you something else. They would prefer to see some new faces and new ideas. Not unsupported garbage, but thoughts that are based in fact. Specific ideas with specific facts to back them.

Saying "the AMA needs new direction" without further information is a waste of effort.

JR

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

" Mr *easytiger* reminds me of the first true democrat, Christopher Columbus. Columbus departed knowing NOT where he was going, when he arrived, he knew NOT where he was, when he returned he knew NOT where he had been, and he made the whole trip on borrowed money."

These charachters can't help it. They have to start putting things into the ol' Rush Limbaugh arena. Disagree, and you are a "democrat", "liberal", or "communist". Whatever. It's really a non-issue, Horrace will never be elected to any position of responsibility again, not even school crossing guard.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Don't FLATTER yourself. Or YOURSELVES. Ever been to Muncie, sat in on an EC meeting, had dinner with the Veeps, really had a chance to chat with them? Or is your experience based entirely on the internet?
The vast majority of the EC got wise to the internet all the way back in the Usenet days of rec.models.rc.air...they know who is out there, and how loaded the deck is, and what a COMPLETE waste of time it is to come and "debate" the issues on the internet.
They are also wise to the fact that reading this kind of post on the internet gives a VERY false impression of what the constituency is actually feeling...it just gives the thoughts of a few angry people, not the majority. As evidenced by the results of recent elections.
If you read the internet, you would have beleive that most members were furious, and Frank Tiano was going to win the election. When people cast their votes, and ENTIRELY different picture showed up.
I know there is at least ONE VP who particiapates, SF, by WHY, I have no idea. Complete waste of time, and I think he would be better off spending his time doing ANYTHING else than dorking around on the forums.
SO, basinbum, while it is nice that you can spew such a platitude, it is based solely on conjecture, isin't it? I, on the other hand, actually TALKED to most of the EC members, and they said, in essence:
"Don't beleive all the garbage you read on the internet. We don't."

Sport_Pilot

The vast majority of the EC got wise to the internet all the way back in the Usenet days of rec.models.rc.air...they know who is out there, and how loaded the deck is, and what a COMPLETE waste of time it is to come and "debate" the issues on the internet.

Well I think Sandy Frank uses the usenet often. I have a warm fuzzy for him for doing so even if I don't always agree. If they don't use this tool because of a few hostile posters, they should keep in mind that the silent majority is lurking. Besides this is a moderated forum and not the usenet.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

Sf is the one I am talking about.
Moderated? My foot.
Do you think you could, say, get in front of the Council at Muncie and start calling people "liberals?"
There is no Roberts Rules of Order here, no discipline, and no way it would ever work. Which is why they wisely decline to participate.
Besides...there already IS a process wherein members can have input. It's not as easy as sitting on your duff and typing the first thing that comes off of your head, though.

J_R

ET

You are right, and you are wrong. The members of the EC that watch this forum look for new ideas. Not the political stuff, nor the normal rants and raves. And, yes, I have talked to most of them in "real life" and yes, they do get a laugh out of a lot that is posted, yet, every now and then, a subject worth consideration comes up. The formation of a committee to look at covering paid instructors with insurance was a direct result of this forum, as an example. Horrace wrote a letter to the EC about the subject, but the stage had been set here.

I can also assure you that it is not limited to SF. I would think that you would realize that others are watching by the posts made... rarely, I admit... by other leaders of the AMA. There are others that never post, but, do follow the posts.

Until such time as a forum is set up to make the participants accountable for their posts, I do not believe we will see any substantial two way communication with the EC. At this point, this is pretty much a one way medium. It is occasionally useful for gleaning new ideas from the membership.

Forums such as this lead directly to the posting of the Financial Statement and the Committees of the AMA in the Members Only section. If you think the concerns of the JPO guys about fuel went unread, keep your eyes open for the results of what they posted. The concerns about Rule 3 of the Safety Code are also being looked at.

It is only too bad that more folks do not bother to post their concerns. Not rants, but ideas and facts.

JR

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Easytiger,

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on several points.

I used to think that Sandy was going to make a difference and had an open approach to communications. Then I started hearing differently from club members, visitors, and at other flying fields around the district. The first few years I assumed that your idea was correct and folks were just being lazy in their approach, then I found evidence that Sandy listens to a few and throws puff words and platitudes at the rest.

The only ideas that seem acceptable to SF are those HE can claim ownership of. I have seen enough to stand on that statement as more than one idea I suggested were thrown out as useless and wastes of time and effort when they were presented. A year or so later, Sandy and crew claimed credit for the wonderful idea that was implemented. At first I didn't care that much about it other than the idea was useful and implemented.

The point is that the channel is NOT open in District VIII. It may (probably is) different in almost all other districts as I have spent some time with most of the EC and found them open to all sorts of things most would not imagine. This is NOT how we build the AMA.

This is where I started in February when I began to review what I had heard of SF's approach to modelers across the district and what I had personally seen and experienced. I became less than enthusiastic about him but was (at that time) willing to tolerate him. When he took action to try to control the election by nominating his close friends as ballot fillers it was absolute confirmation of all the bad things others had said to me about him over the years. It was no longer time to let others carry the ball.

Your assumption that AMA leaders do not watch this forum (and the newsgroups) is incorrect. I have had my words from both areas repeated back to me in other venues by several of those folks. Hard to do if you don't follow.

I am convinced that most of them are unwilling to be blasted by the undocumented, er anonymous non-AMA member poster and that significantly reduces their activity here. Look around and you will find posts from at least one DVP and Carl Maroney.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

ET, you just proved my point for me.

...."The vast majority of the EC got wise to the internet all the way back in the Usenet days of rec.models.rc.air"....

...."I, on the other hand, actually TALKED to most of the EC members, and they said, in essence:
"Don't beleive all the garbage you read on the internet. We don't." .....

Those two sentences speak to the fact that they are listening in on these forums. Don't let your personal contempt for me cloud your perspective. You are basically agreeing with me yet you just want to slam me so bad you can't think clearly.

..."SO, basinbum, while it is nice that you can spew such a platitude, it is based solely on conjecture, isin't it?"...

I don't need conjecture when you confirm my statement with your first hand accounts.

Now you can go back to pulling peoples chains with statements that even you don't really believe.

MustangFan

Do we need an invite to have a chat or lunch with them ... and who pays.

Might be interested! Wouldn't mind having a tour of their facility with lunch.

J_R

Dennis

All AMA members are always welcome to tour the facilities in Muncie. EC Meetings are open to any AMA member, with the exception of the "Executive Session" portion of meetings. Lunch? Well, to be truthful, I don't think there is a VP on Mars and you may have trouble negotiating that.

JR

MustangFan

J_R

By golly I think your correct .... there isn't a VP up here.
In fact, I'm up here all alone!

Who owns this land, nobody has landed here and planted a flag yet.

Well then, maybe I don't need insurance soooooooooo
maybe I don't need the AMA ???

But if I ever get down there to Earth and Muncie Indiana, I'll want you to "Take Me To Your Leader" .... A Mr. Dave Brown is it ?

By the way my favorite food is nanaquish (really expensive).

Thanks for the invite.

f-16 viper

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