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Plane across Atlantic

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Plane across Atlantic

Old 08-14-2003, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: AMA and UAV's

Originally posted by AstroMan
Someone touched on it earlier, and I was hoping it would be talked about more. Am I mistaken, or doesn't the AMA take a dim view on autonomous models / uav's, especially ones that fly beyond visual range with gps guidance. If I'm correct (and I'm not sure I am) why would DB even accept an invitation to participate in such activity?
And the Aerosonde model made an almost identical trip back in 1998, why is this such big news?
You may want to check this thread out:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...44&forumid=211

The definition of autonomous is part of the discussion in that thread. This plane does not seem to fit into what we know so far as the AMA definition of autonomous, but, that is certainly open for debate.

The attempt was to set an FAI record, the scope of the FAI is larger than that of the AMA. If the flight is accepted by the FAI, it will be a world record, something not accomplished before.

Maynard Hill is a previous President of the AMA and it is not surprising that he and Dave Brown may be friends. I suspect that is the reason DB was part of this effort. It might even have been done because it was fun.

JRR
Old 08-14-2003, 02:20 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Ok, I've read the other thread which leads me to believe that this plane did NOT meet AMA's definitions, as it was obviously equipped for autonomous flight.

"The operators of radio control model aircraft shall control the aircraft from the ground and maintain un-enhanced visual contact with the aircraft throughout the entire flight operation. The aircraft shall not be equipped with devices that would allow for autonomous flight. "

I have no problem whatsoever with Mr. Brown going and doing this for fun and to set an FAI record, I certainly would if given the chance. What sparks my ire is why multiple violations of the AMA's own safety code by it's former and current presidents are celebrated front page news on the AMA website.
The flight itself is really very cool, and if DB wants to do something fun, more power to him, just leave the AMA and my dues out of it.
peace.
Old 08-14-2003, 02:45 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

First Eric has a good point.
Second. Maybe we need to update the rules this was over the ocean I think the safety issue on this should be looked at
Third it worked ,hope we have the FAI record
before the issue becomes completely clouded we should wait and
see what Dave writes up in Model Aviation
Old 08-14-2003, 02:48 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

First, it has not been established that the AMA or dues are involved.

Second. If you read further in that thread, the only preliminary definition of autonomous is a plane that needs no input from the pilot to take off, fly, and land. The subject plane, by that definition, is not autonomous.

I think it is clear that the plane was not kept in the line of sight.

The FAI rules are different. The FAI is the world body for ALL aircraft, both model and full scale. The AMA is the US model representative to the FAI. Since this attempt was not made from any point or over any point in the US, the AMA has no input at all. I think I can safely say that both Maynard Hill and Dave Brown are FAI certified (it's validated with an FAI stamp available from the AMA).

World championship events or record attempts are held under the rules of the FAI and not of the AMA, even when the events are held in the US. As a result, they may or may not be covered by AMA insurance when held in this country.

Keep in mind that the new definition discussed in the other thread has not even appeared in public, officially. It will probably not take affect until 2004. Even that is not clear at this point.

If you go by the current definition of a model the AMA uses, it is simply a plane that can not carry a human. The Safety Code then modifies that definition.

JR
Old 08-14-2003, 02:57 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

WOW,

First Transatlantic model flight!!!!

I just can't get over the lengths some people will goto to Bad mouth an organization. Implying Dave Brown used AMA funds to fund his European Trip without a shred off proof.... Isn't that illegal? You people are pathetic get a life. Go fly. Stop making issues where none exist!!!
Old 08-14-2003, 03:27 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Originally posted by Crashem
WOW,

First Transatlantic model flight!!!!

I just can't get over the lengths some people will goto to Bad mouth an organization. Implying Dave Brown used AMA funds to fund his European Trip without a shred off proof.... Isn't that illegal? You people are pathetic get a life. Go fly. Stop making issues where none exist!!!
Crashem

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one stated that Dave Brown did, in fact, spend AMA money. Questions were raised. Your opinion seems to be that it is pathetic. yet here you are. I support your right to that opinion. I hope that no one is intimidated by any discussion in this forum, and does not post because someone else does not respect the right to express an opinion. I keep seeing lurkers in this forum that do not post. That is a shame.

As far as I am concerned, the only dumb question is one that is not asked.

JR
Old 08-14-2003, 03:40 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

JR,

You are wrong... People are implying that DB used AMA Funds and represented the AMA in this thread and in the one going on the clubhouse...

The leap in logical deduction skills in certain people is what I find pathetic.

Go read the other thread

DB (AMA pres) lands first transaltantic model in Ireland GEE HE better not be using AMA funds... Nobody said he did and posting these types of speculations are pretty close to liable. Or do you think somehow RCU members are exempted
Old 08-14-2003, 03:54 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Here here JR,
People shouldn't be wary about posting their opinion, but I know they are. Rather than being informative and courteous like you, even when you disagree, many just flame away. While I am not an AMA expert by any means, I do share the same concerns as other members about the organization. As far a libel goes, people are entitled to their opinion and as long as it it expressed as such there should be no problem. People can imply anything they want as long as they don't state damaging untrue facts. Personally I think DB would be smart enough not to use AMA funds for an FAI activity that is well beyond the scope of the AMA. In any case, as dues paying members of this organization we have the right and responsibility to be critical.
my .02
Old 08-14-2003, 04:01 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Crashem

If it's labeled opinion, or words like may, might, better not, are used, it is not liable. In the case of DB, he is not going to sue for anything that is less than absolutely malicious; way, way, beyond the bounds of anything I have ever seen here. He views RCU, and the net in general as being like CB and that is a quote.

JR
Old 08-14-2003, 06:03 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

3 cheers JR I was about to formulate a reply and you summed
it up;;;we all have better things to do than pick this apart
I really think these are unfair accusations about Dave brown
and very easy to sling mud when you dont know all the
facts . why not wait till dave does a review of this event in the
AMA publication which he will do As far as nit picking on the rules
I wonder how many planes would have been saved had a video
camera been in it when it was far enough alway to lose sight of it
we really should take advantage of these tech, advances
Again very glad he was there to do it/////getting mired in rule
books solves nothing
.lets take advantage of the tools.\
Again glad he as there to do it
Old 08-14-2003, 07:46 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

as far as the statements about safety code violations and such go, none of this flight occured on US soil or airspace, so ama stuff does not apply to it.
Old 08-14-2003, 09:07 PM
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Default So I guess no feather in our cap then!

.
Old 08-14-2003, 09:26 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Enough said this was sounding like the BBC comedy\
Faulty Towers with John Cleese (great comedy by the way)
its 630PM going flying till dusk,,,,building and flying the important
stuff martin
Old 08-15-2003, 04:21 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

I gotta agree with Crashem, this is a big feat and a scientific accomplishment, and you guys are griping about the possibility that the funds to get DB there were from AMA. Who cares? in light of the other questionable things things they have spent money on, this is nothing, and promotes our hobby by giving us our 15 minutes in the spotlight in international news.

Sheesh, if you really want to pick it apart you might as well go all the way. DB's AMA insurance was null since he was not in North America, and the radio frequency was probably illegal if it started in North America (72mhz) and landed in Europe which uses 40mhz.

So from this we can deduce (and that seems to be what this whole thread is about) that Dave Brown used AMA funds to fly to Ireland (twice) to land a model aircraft that was operating on an illegal frequency, and without proper liability insurance.

I like the way the liberal main stream media reported it better. At least they reported it like it was an accomplishment.


Dan
Old 08-19-2003, 11:10 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

I think it's really cool the AMA president got worldwide publicity flying a model airplane. He was a world champ in his earlier years. However, I consider the portion of the flight not controlled by a real person holding a transmitter. An separate endeavor separate from flying a Radio Controlled model airplane.

Flying a airplane from a boat crossing the Atlantic would be a Modeling feat. In my opinion Maynard's accomplishment was an exercise in electronic telemetry, for his own personal gain, more suited for somebody else's record books then ours, the AMA.
Old 09-05-2003, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: clubs

Originally posted by Jim Branaum
Joe,

I read the article and understand how it got written that way.

I suspect (but have NO proof) that he arranged his planned vacation around the desires of a previous AMA president and or an FAI meeting. I also suspect (but cannot PROVE) that any time he gets modeling to be shown in a good light, he drags the AMA along - AS WE EXPECT HIM TO DO!

I will be willing to bet a fair amount that if there is an AMA involvement in his travel plans it was limited to attending an FAI meeting and Hill planned his launches around that fact. I have no proof, but I will ask him directly, as I have many other things that are currently under discussion and action.

Now as for your assumption that he needs to be visiting clubs, I think you have the wrong party. I personally think we need to let the DVP's and their friends the AVP's do the contact work. I understand where you are coming from, but we need to address the real cost and its benefit.

Look at the raw numbers. There are around 2500 clubs in the country. Let us assume that he would visit a new city every possible weekend. We have to discount Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter as most admit those are FAMILY weekends. That leaves 48 weekends from which we take 6 weekends for EC meetings leaving 42 weekends.

If we let him arrange lecture meetings with the club officers as my DVP has been known to do, how many clubs would be visited? Worse, would you be happy to be lectured to (assuming YOU were an officer) or would you rather be able to communicate with him?

By the way, we have never mentioned cost. In my business we used to figure at least $150 a day for room and board and put that above the cost of the airfare. Now if he has to leave a day late or get there a day early, the costs go up a lot. Lets just figure on $300 per trip plus air fare and not worry about it. We said 42 trips which is $12,600 BEFORE AIRFARE! At no place in this discussion have we even mentioned the earning abilities or personal needs of the person who is president.

Actually this was one of the reasons I had previously chosen not to run for the District VIII AMA VP slot. Then the two best known candidates decided they had the right to try to corrupt the nominations process. I don't like folks who approve of cheating and telling the public it is in their best interests. The more I found out about the actions, the worse the implications of doing nothing were. Since Mike Moss ignored an e-mail offering help this spring, I decided to run a write in campaign.


By the way Joe, if I am wrong about the AMA paying his way to Ireland, I WILL buy you a beer.


Originally posted by ProfLooney
HAHA Jim and if I am wrong will get you one you going to scale masters in sept i am sure i will be thirsty :0)

SNIP

Joe

PS man im thirsty
JOE!

I called Dave Brown this afternoon to order a 4 inch spinner. While I was talking to him, I made a point of asking him about this trip. You owe me a beer.
- Thanks!
Old 09-05-2003, 11:13 PM
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OK if you at the Scale masters Ill buy a couple that way I can drink one with ya :0)

Joe
Old 09-08-2003, 11:54 AM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

What sparks my ire is why multiple violations of the AMA's own safety code by it's former and current presidents are celebrated front page news on the AMA website
.

AMA simplay said that they don't cover autonomous flight. Not that it's unsafe. They don't cover golf either, so Dave would be breaking AMA safety rules if he went to Ireland to go golfing?
Old 09-08-2003, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

ok i take it he didn't use ama funds for the trip? kewl

now on to this plane thing here, they flew across the Atlantic ocean? un-refueled? man that baby musta been all tank! and what kinda engine gets that kinda mileage? gas surely, not glow i wouldn't think. and it carried all that telemetry equipment too? sheesh!! whoever makes that engine is gonna sell alot of them if they use that as advertisement!


john
Old 09-08-2003, 09:25 PM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

Would you believe a modified 4 stroke using Coleman lantern fuel? The plane weighed about 11 pounds when it was launched.

More details: http://tam.plannet21.com/

JR

PS
Give most of the credit to Maynard Hill, an Ex-AMA President, 77 years young that has to dye the glue so he can see it. Dave Brown landed it.
Old 09-09-2003, 12:23 AM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

Pay the man
Old 09-09-2003, 12:25 AM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

Really this is a test about how much security has to be disabled to post here.
Old 09-09-2003, 10:56 PM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

Will it work?
Old 09-09-2003, 11:12 PM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

By golly it did work.

Now I will say that regardless of our politics, Dave Brown is the elected President of the Academy of Model Aeronautics and is the main man to represent the sport of model aviation on the national and international levels.
DB is a volunteer and he spends many days working for model aviation (Yes I do argue that point but that is a personality things).
A very talented person, Maynard Hill, veteran of many years in Applied Physics at John Hopkins Univ., has accomplished a significant FIRST for the good ol' USA. It would be a slap in the face to both DB and MH, if the AMA President was NOT there to finish the event.
This is great publicity for aeromodeling and for the USA.

Personally, I am ashamed for any member of the aeromodeling community, and especially AMA members, that would accept less than DB being fully reimbursed by the corporation to include First Class all the way.

Come on beggars, get a life. Yes, I am a candidate for AMA office, and I will volunteer the many hours such office requires, plus a significant amount of un-reimbursed expense. However everything has its limit.
What the _ell are YOU doing?

Horrace D. Cain
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Old 09-09-2003, 11:31 PM
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Default RE: Plane across Atlantic

I really hate to say it...but your stock just went down as for as I am concerned. I view the event as a great achievement for Maynard Hill in the field of RC aircraft in which Dave Brown participated. Nothing more nothing less. No AMA funds should have been used unless WE are given CREDIT... which we are not due in this case.

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