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Plane across Atlantic

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Plane across Atlantic

Old 08-13-2003, 06:36 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Well this last attempt the model plane made it across the atlantic. http://www.msnbc.com/news/951680.asp?0cv=TA01

I see Dave Brown flew over to Ireland to land the thing. I wonder if they are going to increase our dues next year to pay for his trip. With the money being spent on that trip he could have bounced around the US here and visited a few homeland clubs but I guess there is no media attention for him in that.

Joe
Old 08-13-2003, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Plane across Atlantic

Originally posted by ProfLooney
Well this last attempt the model plane made it across the atlantic. http://www.msnbc.com/news/951680.asp?0cv=TA01

I see Dave Brown flew over to Ireland to land the thing. I wonder if they are going to increase our dues next year to pay for his trip. With the money being spent on that trip he could have bounced around the US here and visited a few homeland clubs but I guess there is no media attention for him in that.

Joe
Joe-
He only did it to protect model aviation's image from yellow journalism. Imagine what they would do with the story if TAM landed autonomously.

Abel
Old 08-13-2003, 08:19 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

I am sorry, but you are incorrect. Will you guys please lay off Dave Brown?

All it takes is a little reading, thought, memory and common sense to see your errors. He or his bride has family in Ireland and they do go visit. That has been a published fact. No where in that statement is there any representation that the AMA funds any part of his vacations. Why do you insist on implying that?

All this constant unabashed attacking with false facts is exactly why many EC members do not participate in public discussion. Most of the EC members are honest hard working folks who deserve much better than this type of attack. Note that I did not say a thing about factual issues, but this attack on Dave Brown is not factual.

The less than honest and above board AMA EC members hide so that they can throw rocks at folks on these forums and misrepresent their actions to the membership. They are the same bunch that always send their puppets to do the attacking. Please change modes slightly before we drive the good ones away to join the bad ones in hiding.
Old 08-13-2003, 09:08 PM
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Default dave brown

I thought The AMA does not sanction autonomous vehicles. So why is the Prez of the AMA having anything to do with the project. Is this a case of political incorrectness or a possible sign of change in the AMA rule book?

Larry Moore
Old 08-13-2003, 09:16 PM
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Default Sorry Jim

Originally posted by Jim Branaum
I am sorry, but you are incorrect. Will you guys please lay off Dave Brown?

All it takes is a little reading, thought, memory and common sense to see your errors. He or his bride has family in Ireland and they do go visit. That has been a published fact. No where in that statement is there any representation that the AMA funds any part of his vacations. Why do you insist on implying that?

All this constant unabashed attacking with false facts is exactly why many EC members do not participate in public discussion. Most of the EC members are honest hard working folks who deserve much better than this type of attack. Note that I did not say a thing about factual issues, but this attack on Dave Brown is not factual.

The less than honest and above board AMA EC members hide so that they can throw rocks at folks on these forums and misrepresent their actions to the membership. They are the same bunch that always send their puppets to do the attacking. Please change modes slightly before we drive the good ones away to join the bad ones in hiding.
Sorry Jim but i think you really need to read the article yourself a little more closely below is a direct quote from the article.

Brown, president of American Academy of Model Aeronautics, said he flew to Ireland to handle the landing. Hill kept in touch by telephone from Newfoundland.
Right there it mentions him as AMA president which flew over specifically to handle the landing. Now why cant he fly his arse to my club or your club or anyone elses club and meet with AMA members instead of flying over there to handle the landing. Now it did not say he used the AMA funding to get over there but I would bet the farm he turns it in as a business expense declareing it as an advertising venture or some such BS for the AMA.

Joe
Old 08-13-2003, 10:18 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

OK now that that is settled, let's go back to Joes question... Who paid for the trip?
Old 08-14-2003, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Sorry Jim

Originally posted by ProfLooney
Sorry Jim but i think you really need to read the article yourself a little more closely below is a direct quote from the article.



Right there it mentions him as AMA president which flew over specifically to handle the landing. Now why cant he fly his arse to my club or your club or anyone elses club and meet with AMA members instead of flying over there to handle the landing. Now it did not say he used the AMA funding to get over there but I would bet the farm he turns it in as a business expense declareing it as an advertising venture or some such BS for the AMA.

Joe
Joe,

I read the article and understand how it got written that way.

I suspect (but have NO proof) that he arranged his planned vacation around the desires of a previous AMA president and or an FAI meeting. I also suspect (but cannot PROVE) that any time he gets modeling to be shown in a good light, he drags the AMA along - AS WE EXPECT HIM TO DO!

I will be willing to bet a fair amount that if there is an AMA involvement in his travel plans it was limited to attending an FAI meeting and Hill planned his launches around that fact. I have no proof, but I will ask him directly, as I have many other things that are currently under discussion and action.

Now as for your assumption that he needs to be visiting clubs, I think you have the wrong party. I personally think we need to let the DVP's and their friends the AVP's do the contact work. I understand where you are coming from, but we need to address the real cost and its benefit.

Look at the raw numbers. There are around 2500 clubs in the country. Let us assume that he would visit a new city every possible weekend. We have to discount Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter as most admit those are FAMILY weekends. That leaves 48 weekends from which we take 6 weekends for EC meetings leaving 42 weekends.

If we let him arrange lecture meetings with the club officers as my DVP has been known to do, how many clubs would be visited? Worse, would you be happy to be lectured to (assuming YOU were an officer) or would you rather be able to communicate with him?

By the way, we have never mentioned cost. In my business we used to figure at least $150 a day for room and board and put that above the cost of the airfare. Now if he has to leave a day late or get there a day early, the costs go up a lot. Lets just figure on $300 per trip plus air fare and not worry about it. We said 42 trips which is $12,600 BEFORE AIRFARE! At no place in this discussion have we even mentioned the earning abilities or personal needs of the person who is president.

Actually this was one of the reasons I had previously chosen not to run for the District VIII AMA VP slot. Then the two best known candidates decided they had the right to try to corrupt the nominations process. I don't like folks who approve of cheating and telling the public it is in their best interests. The more I found out about the actions, the worse the implications of doing nothing were. Since Mike Moss ignored an e-mail offering help this spring, I decided to run a write in campaign.


By the way Joe, if I am wrong about the AMA paying his way to Ireland, I WILL buy you a beer.
Old 08-14-2003, 12:37 AM
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Default clubs

HAHA Jim and if I am wrong will get you one you going to scale masters in sept i am sure i will be thirsty :0)

anyways I did not say he had to visit tons of clubs Just like any other organization or even in politics they hit a few here and there every now and then. I mean when was the last time any EC member hit some small town club while they were out travelling and actually talked to its members and published some of this. I am not saying none have ever visited a small town club but usually all you hear about is the larger clubs and their events. The AMA is supposed to be for all modelling not just select clubs usually in reports you here abt the same clubs over and over.

Like I said he or any EC member doesnt need to go on a club campaign just hitting an ocassional one while they are travelling would be nice. Say DB heads to Superman in southern Illinois here to watch the jets why dont he take the charter club list make a couple calls and say hey next month i will be passing through and would love to stop by and take a short break from all that driving and have a cup of coffee with you guys and chit chat. Same can be done by any EC member etc. I would then agree with helping to fund their expense accounts with my dues but for the same clubs over and over is a waste it almost makes it like they dont care anything about meeting with people they are supposed to be representing even if they get hammered by some pain in the arse like me at least it will be closer to a one on one and you know they may influence people like me to think their way or vicaversa without haveing an all out assult on them from a hundred people at once like would happen in the forums. it is only common sense politics and management.

Joe

PS man im thirsty
Old 08-14-2003, 12:48 AM
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Default Re: clubs

Originally posted by ProfLooney
HAHA Jim and if I am wrong will get you one you going to scale masters in sept i am sure i will be thirsty :0)

anyways I did not say he had to visit tons of clubs Just like any other organization or even in politics they hit a few here and there every now and then. I mean when was the last time any EC member hit some small town club while they were out travelling and actually talked to its members and published some of this. I am not saying none have ever visited a small town club but usually all you hear about is the larger clubs and their events. The AMA is supposed to be for all modelling not just select clubs usually in reports you here abt the same clubs over and over.

Like I said he or any EC member doesnt need to go on a club campaign just hitting an ocassional one while they are travelling would be nice. Say DB heads to Superman in southern Illinois here to watch the jets why dont he take the charter club list make a couple calls and say hey next month i will be passing through and would love to stop by and take a short break from all that driving and have a cup of coffee with you guys and chit chat. Same can be done by any EC member etc. I would then agree with helping to fund their expense accounts with my dues but for the same clubs over and over is a waste it almost makes it like they dont care anything about meeting with people they are supposed to be representing even if they get hammered by some pain in the arse like me at least it will be closer to a one on one and you know they may influence people like me to think their way or vicaversa without haveing an all out assult on them from a hundred people at once like would happen in the forums. it is only common sense politics and management.

Joe

PS man im thirsty
LOL

Joe,

I guess we are in agreement. I feel the DVP's and AVP's should be going to events to FLY and share facts and listen to concerns. That is the way some DVP's handle the subject, but not all. Some visit and try to share information and collect opinions to consider, some take pictures as Red will attest, and others just visit to lecture and hand out non-answers to questions.
Old 08-14-2003, 12:54 AM
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Default agreement

I am worried now we agree on something lol naw we have agreed before. When I will start to worry is when I start agreeing with JR hehehe

Joe
Old 08-14-2003, 12:58 AM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Joe

When was the last time you or your club contacted your VP and asked him to visit?

When was the last time you or your club asked him to attend a sanctioned event? heck, have you asked him to attend a non-sanctioned event?

When was the last time you or your club asked him to attend a show that you put on?

When was the last time you or your club sent a story and pictures to the VP in hopes that he would publish it?

When was the last time you or anyone in your club picked up the phone and called him?

Do you suppose that clubs that get more press than others may do so because they have an active member(s) who stays in contact with the VP? That they do so on a more frequent basis? Has it occurred to you that most of the VP's, with one notable exception, probably do not take all of the pictures they publish?

Now, one final question. When was the last time you sat back in your chair and wished that he would call, attend a meeting, or an event and you did absolutely nothing about it?

JR
Old 08-14-2003, 01:21 AM
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Default welcome jr

Welcome JR I was wondering when you would show up.

Well since I am fairly new to this area as I have been moved away to abt 12 yrs I cannot say. I have heard Charlie Baur has popped in to one of our events a wile back. I am not saying I would have to personally see them pop into my clubs events whenever they pop up you are missing the point.

The point is when do they on their own while travelling decide hey I think as i goto this event I will take a little time to make a couple stops at some chartered clubs on the way and pull out a club listing and just pick a couple randomly that is on their way and stop by, talk with the people, then write about their experiences. I am not an officer in my club mainly due to old fart politics ie the old farts dont want change so keep us younger ones from office so that doesnt happen old farts outnumber younger members 2 to 1 in the club its the good ole boy syndrome. Clubs SHOULD NOT have to invite AMA leadership to stop by they should do it on their own.

Heres one for you to quote hehe:

Quote for JR to use

"What you and others that feel the way you do fail to do is see things in reality. There are those of us like you, me, Jim, and every other person that posts on this AMA forum that actually care abt the heading of the AMA whether your opinion is right or my opinion is right doesnt matter we all have the right to think the way we feel is right. BUT you live where and belong to what club? Jim lives where and belongs to what club? I live where and belong to what club? see my point. here in the internet world we are a great big special club we all get together and voice our opinions etc. Now to my point How many people at your club could really give a crap abt the ama or be interested that they stopped by to call them up and invite them? sure some clubs have enough members that would do that but most couldnt care less. they see the AMA as more insurance with a set of rules than as an organization. That is where the AMA Leaders NEED to take up the task so to speak and get out and mingle once in a while with clubs. I mean is it so hard for them to be driving somewhere and stop for half hour or an hour and have lunch or coffee with some local club they are passing by? it seems so they want to get to the bigger clubs or events where they will get more exposure to boost their egos and political rankings rather than stop by a club and say hey im you DVP and going to be driving to such and such and since your club is on the way I would love to stop by and see your field and talk with your members it would give me a chance to meet you guys and to stretch my legs.


That is what I am talking about not hey Dave how come you cant come by my club so i can reem you a new one thats ludicris does him coming by just to see me do anything to better the AMA as a whole? i very much doubt it unless he come by to see my club and saw others and DVP's and AVP's etc did the same thing where they get more exposure to clubs and the membership instead of hiding at their hopme fields or in places where they cram their lectures down peoples throats then take off without answering any questions or meeiting with the common modeller.

Joe

PS Please dont agree with me I dont think I could take it after Jim agreeing lol
Old 08-14-2003, 01:44 AM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Guys,

This is the SECOND trip that DB made to Ireland to land the plane. The first time, several months ago, Dave stood on the Irish coast peering into the mist waiting for a model that never came. On the first trip he said that he visited relatives. I'm not so sure on the second as he hasn't specified. If he does claim it, I don't want to hear any more crap concerning why dues need to be raised. We already have a District V VP wasting AMA money for paid vacations...We don't need another!

Kevin
Old 08-14-2003, 01:58 AM
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Default across the atlantic

recheck the compass folks, have lost sight of what has happened
maynard hill builds a model airplane that flys the atlantic I am sure
NASA and or the US aerospace industry did not fund this one
(good thing how many millions of tax dollars whould that cost?)
sort of a Lindberg thing on smaller scale.This is a great achievement both for the USA and American modelers.
Dave brown goes over and lands it.
We should be happy he did representing the American modelers and the AMA. It is also the 100th year of flight started by a couple
of guys from Dayton Ohio. Think they started with hand tossed
models martin Bender AMA member
Old 08-14-2003, 02:06 AM
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Default compasses checked

Our compasses are checked look at the forum you are in. the clubhouse and others are discussing the plane this is the AMA discussion and dicussing in this thread the cost of davey going over when the people doing the whole process should have done it themselves. it smells of politics at the expense of the membership which can only been seen as one of the reasons for increases constantly in dues.

If I was asked if I thought it would be ok to send him over as a rep I might have even said yes but it is the fact that they do as they please then tell us we need to increase the dues. case in point the HQ at muncie how many of us got to vote whether they built the place or not they just did it then somehow our dues started increasing to cover the extra expenses but that is another matter covered on other threads.

Also it is discussing the matter of why he can go to ireland (probably though not yet proved) at our expense but yet the AMA Leadership cant stop off at the hole in the wall club on their way to some event without being asked and meet with the membership they supposedly are representing

in the end this is for discussing AMA not theacheivement other forums have that area covered

Joe
Old 08-14-2003, 02:11 AM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Joe

You do point out the difference in clubs. My club would be very unhappy to have anyone from the AMA drop in unannounced. In my club, we have to hog-tie someone to serve in each officers position. If you are willing to run, you will very likely be elected unanimously.

I have been the member of several clubs. Some have desired the exposure to the AMA, others have not. One club I was in managed to get the major TV networks out to a yearly event. At that event, it was not unusual to have more than one AMA official present... but... they were invited. The club also appeared in several magazines including MA. Once a month one of our guys would write a report and send it along with pictures.

Simply, your club is what you want it to be. If you and your club don't ask, it's very likely Charlie will not show up. If you really want to get to know him, try e-mail. I have. I have also talked to him for a couple of hours in person. He loves to talk. He is a nice guy, very opinionated and loves modeling. He is responsible for the program of grants to clubs for capital improvements.

Get to know the guy. There is no excuse for not trying.

JR
Old 08-14-2003, 02:23 AM
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Default charlie

yea i been meaning to stop up and see him since he is only a couple hours a way and its a big club up there. I have no probs with charlie I have called a time or two to ask questions and you are right he is a nice guy BUT just because he and a few others are doesnt help the organization as a whole. As for unannounced most these guys set up their plans a ways in advance and a phone call ahead of time keeps it from being just an unannounced pop in. My club would never call to invite an ama leader to their event or whatever thats just the way they are. I personally called emailed and invited several ppl from within a 4 state area to our scale event this year and it was the biggest ever and for 2 months the club knew who was coming. Every year we get several thousand spectators coming throughout the day along with the tv and newspapers it is a big event this year they felt no need to advertise or get tv or anything involved. Behind the schenes i was told that it was because they felt with so many from out of town it would make the local guys look bad so they decided not to advertise. now I cant substantiate it for a fact but that gives you the mentality of this club. if it werent for the fact they have such a fantastic flying site as any that attended can attest to, i would stick to my football and baseball fields for local flying and enjoy myself when i travelled.

But essentually it almost sounded like we were agreeing on something hehe man this is too much for me for 1 day lol

Joe
Old 08-14-2003, 02:26 AM
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Default PS

PS I am going to be going to the Scale Masters in Sept and hope to get to meet more of the leadership in person so i can better get to know them

Joe
Old 08-14-2003, 02:32 AM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Joe

I wouldn't want to ruin your day.

It's just my opinion, but, I think it is unfair to allege that DB is spending AMA money without your knowing for sure.

I won't try to defend him, for the same reason. I simply don't know. I do know from talking to him that the last trip was to visit relatives and to land the plane that never came. I seem to recall that it also incorporated an FAI meeting that he attended. I could be in error about the FAI meeting. He does go to Europe to represent the AMA at FAI meetings, on occasion, and probably at some expense to the AMA. Keep in mind that it is part of his job.

You may envy that job, but, it is his job.

JR
Old 08-14-2003, 02:38 AM
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Default DB

Nope I have no problem with him travelling for them meetings as you are correct (yuck common agreement again hehehe) it is his job. You are correct again in that we do not know if it is at his personal expense or anything else. In my original statement though on the facts we do know I mentioned it would be BS IF he just flew over there to land the plane and would prob write it on his expense account.

Joe
Old 08-14-2003, 02:44 AM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Joe

I will bet anything that he wrote it off on his expense account. It's just that I am betting on the one at Dave Brown Model Products.

JR
Old 08-14-2003, 02:48 AM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

I personally would not have a problem with the AMA covering some of our president's expenses on this trip. A discussion about whether or not that is an appropriate use of funds would be fine. I have not read any replies indicating anyone has knowledge of AMA funds being used for the trip. So at this point I think accusing Dave of wasting AMA money or time is premature.

Eric
Old 08-14-2003, 02:59 AM
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Default DB

Well it only got in deeper on dave cause of JR lol i mentioned it in passing at the start but then it got into more of the real heart of the matter and that was not so much the trip as such but the fact he can go all that way to land a plane but him and other AMA leaders cant take time to visit the small little clubs now and again as they travel to their big events thus no "SPecial" trips costing a lot of money just to visit a small club but more of a going to an event and stop at a coupl clubs or so while on their way thus meeting more of the membership they represent and also not costing an abundance of extra expenses to make special trips to try and visit some clubs they can spend the money for 1 trip to an even and that in turn will pay for them stopping at some clubs on the way. most of the time i would bet they wouldnt have to go more than a few miles out of their way to hit a club they just have to want to do it.

Joe
Old 08-14-2003, 12:11 PM
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Default Plane across Atlantic

Originally posted by depfife
I personally would not have a problem with the AMA covering some of our president's expenses on this trip. A discussion about whether or not that is an appropriate use of funds would be fine. I have not read any replies indicating anyone has knowledge of AMA funds being used for the trip. So at this point I think accusing Dave of wasting AMA money or time is premature.

Eric
Kudos Depfife

This thread is bogus because its based on speculation.

Scott
Old 08-14-2003, 12:49 PM
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Default AMA and UAV's

Someone touched on it earlier, and I was hoping it would be talked about more. Am I mistaken, or doesn't the AMA take a dim view on autonomous models / uav's, especially ones that fly beyond visual range with gps guidance. If I'm correct (and I'm not sure I am) why would DB even accept an invitation to participate in such activity?
And the Aerosonde model made an almost identical trip back in 1998, why is this such big news?

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