jeffEE

My Feedback: (5)

You did the correct thing. You spoke to him about the problem. And then HE became the problem. One of the posts somewhere in this thread said..."was his actions unsafe? No one can say without seeing his video the aircraft shoot." I diagree, the CD can say. And he did.
To the OP, you ever get to the Detroit Lakes mall show in April? I come up from the Twin Cities every year. I would love to talk to you about this then.

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

I have to say that when I give a pilots briefing before an event, I do not specifically caution the pilots to not make extended run-ins aimed at the crowd. Have never seen anyone do that at any of my events.

If some one did it for a few seconds with a light weight slow stick taking some pictures, it would not be an issue for me as long as the aircraft never passed over the safey line between the runway and the pit area.

if a larger faster model did the same thing, I would very politely ask the pilot to not do that. I would not argue with him while he was flying. After he lands I would look him up again and make my case as to why what he was going was a bad idea and ask him to not do that again in the friendliest way possible.

At my last electric fly in, a flyer asked if he could fly down the flight line with a fairly hefty quad with a video camera, in between the runway and the safety fence. I politely declined and he agreed to make his camera pass down the centerline of the runway, flying the quad with the "nose" pointed at the pit area, but moving slowly right to left down the runway, sideways.

The quad malfunctioned and dove forward into the ground just short of the safety fence. If it has been where he wanted to make the pass, it would have hit airplanes and possibly people in the pit area. Glad we dodged that bullet.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Good point 804, I have asked to see the video shot but so far the video has not been posted. I will assume that the video would show no rules were broken and the air am pilot performed this is a safe manner.

If the CD performed his duty is such a way the pilot got angry but to the CD was angry to start with, as it was written, then this CD might let a calm person to perform the CD duty. Have you ever heard kill with kindness? If you can not approach a RC pilot with kindness and respect then the CD flight duty is not for you. Unless you hobby is not flying but attempting to control others.

Maybe I have not run into a jerk that thinks he is God's gift and would not agree with the requests, so far we have not. I have never approached a pilot that got even a little upset. Maybe we just don't attract that kind of pilot. We must be doing something right due to the crowds we have. We have Warbird to Profile Brotherhood guys flying at our events with no issues.

Maybe it just comes down to the people running the event that is different. You tell me. To bring some humor to this feel free to go to http:// www.brotherhoodofcircleflyers.com to watch a video I did a long time ago. It will show aircraft piloting mistakes and the safety of the 3d style of the ProBro guys that get a bad rep.

crash99

p39

My Feedback: (5)

I agree that the CD or ED has the right to ground any pilot or plane that isn't safe. He's in charge of the event regardless of club or AMA rules. As long as he is fair and errs on the side of safetly... what he says goes. Was there a apilots' meeting before the evnet spelling out the rules and what was expected of the participants? That may (or may not-depending on the violating pilot) squelch any objections to an interpretation of what is or is not appropriate flying or behavior.

High Flyer

After all is said and done,you were the CD, you were there. You decided the safety rules were broken, he needed to land period.Safety first.

DISCUS54

My Feedback: (211)

Funny stuff on the video! Thanks for sharing, he moved to Mexico when he heard the CD was after his Club Card...natural selection will deal with that soon enough, ouch! The OP knows whether he is in the right here...careless and reckless is the CD's call. There are a lot of variables that might be considered here but in the end the CD gets to make the call and he did. Yeaaa! Now whether everyone else saw what he saw...that's another story....and marks the difference between respected CD's and others.

chuckhanger

My Feedback: (21)

I feel you done the right thing, as a CD myself the safety of the flight line is Number one. I don care if he is a Founding member here is what I'd do !!! I would pull this person in a board meeting with the officers and stat my case if they will not back you up on this, it is time to find a another club! He may feel he is a safe flyer but things happen and the club would get a lot of bad press if something would happen ! Stand your ground, lets put it this way if something would happen to someone you could lose everything if its not ran right ! If he training like that that is sad I know he is trying to make it fun for the kids , But safety comes first !

asimatt

My Feedback: (26)

I bring my kids to the field with me. That would last one time. I am a very calm person but if someone's ego is going to hurt me or mainly my family LOOK OUT!!!

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Really ? IS there no one at your club that backs you up ? Is there no one at your club you can discuss this with ? Generally, if there is a big bad boogy-man flying recklessly and endangering the crowd, then EVERYONE sees it. Rarely must David slay the giant without any support. And rarely would your actions NOT be validated by your friends. This story sounds incomplete. What did your friends say ? Did no one express their reaction ? The people that were present and witnessed for themselves the events that transpired are the people that you need to speak with. Not some jury of anonymous armchair experts which have heard only ONE side of the story. If only a witness would appear and make a comment confirming your claims. Ahh, I think I hear one coming now....

loopdeeloop

My Feedback: (4)

Any event involving a large number of participants or out of the ordinary activity needs someone in charge. If you want to call that person the event co-ordinator, flight boss, contest director (whether or not there are contests) or simply the safety officer, that's fine -- but someone needs to be in charge of "safety" for everyone whether AMA rules are strictly followed, or you enforce stricter rules. Pilots then need to follow whatever rules are set for that event. I don't condone yanking a TX out of someones hands as that is likely to actually cause an incident rather than prevent one. But ordering the pilot to land and then refusing permission to fly again is certainly a reasonable action and it can be done without going ballistic. That action can come later should the pilot become unreasonable. Our club rules have a process whereby a membership can be terminated. Unfortunately some folks just "don't get it" and drastic action needs to happen. What that action becomes probably cannot be predicted with any certainty. But in this case the pilot has apparently gotten away with his behavior and now feels he is entitled. Remove that entitlement and you remove the problem. Our rules restrict overflight of the pit, spectator and parking area from any direction. Does it happen? Certainly. But not on a regular basis and it is almost always because of errant take off, equipment problem, wind or any of the other things that can go wrong. Been a member of my current club and am currently the President (until Dec. 31) and have never had to approach someone for bad flight behavior. I have approached folks regarding safety issues in the pit area and in all this time had only one negative response to my action. That was quickly resolved with a calm discussion regarding why I responded the way I did and all was settled peacefully. In any walk of life you run into folks who are special and then there are folks who "think" they are special. It is those who think they are special that need the attitude adjustment.

kochj

A great way to avoid some of those "ohhh no" moments is to have a short list of "Absolute NO NO's" and let everyone know that will be flying
prior to them even setting FOOT on the flight line...

Just a thought... might work...

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Ever notice that Rules seem to be made for everyone else but the Officers or the IMPORTANT people at your club? Wonder why that is?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

As is often the case in threads like this, this one sentence from the OP speaks volumes...

jaav

Rules are Rules, you don't write then just have to enforce them..It can be hard, Ive had to bite my lip and fist on a few times and try and smile. If hes been breaking or pushing the rules before and warned well he has no excuse to verbally abuse you. If that happens in our club every thing is stopped and we have a officials meeting to sort out the issue there and then before it gets out of hand...
Most time it will be the pilot will have his wings clipped for the day . if he doesn't like that then we will ban him until the next official meeting to sort out a penalty. Haven had to do that yet.

804

My Feedback: (1)

I don't care what size font or what color you use to shout your opinion,
you still can't make an informed judgement of an incident like this without having been there and seen it.

Merry Christmas, or whatever, to everyone!

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Ya know this seems to go on an on mostly from all those that seem to despise RULES Hate the AMA What Ever. Everyone signs a promise to follow the RULES when they pay their AMA dues and When (at least every club I've been in and is in now, 5 at last count) to Abide by all AMA and local Club Rules ... What is so difficult about this concept. For those that don't like Rules or believe That the RULESy only pertain to others, I say, save your money give up all your flying club member ships and don't renew your AMA and take your toys and your Attitude and go play by your self and the others of the same feeling. Start your own club where there NO RULES It should be so obvious that we shouldn't need a Forum like these EVER. NUFF SAID.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Hound Dog, We live in a highly subjective world...we are all subject to different levels of privilege based on many factors of others perception. A good example: One day, after recently joining a new club, I was flying a sport .40 sized model. The model was muffled but was indeed a little loud. The then club president/safety man decided he needed to give me the riot act about how I needed to do something about it and not fly that day unless I did... Just so happen, at that very moment, his assteemed friend, that everyone idolizes, was running his racer type plane with a high performance engine without a muffler...AGAIN!....spinning upwards 20,000 RPM...To say his engine was loud was an extreme understatement...People's ears hurt from the noise he made... Of course I pointed that out to the goofus idiot safety nut...Should have seen the look on the goofballs face! He knew he had been caught dead to rights about his double dealing ways...He then gave me his benevolent permission to fly but never said one thing to his bud...But he seemed to enjoy singling me out in front of his DA followers until I barked back. And no, that's not the only issue I've experienced with that self-rightius person...but at one point, I did look straight into his eyes and told him I'll never be at any of the events he CDs.

Why we empower such idiots has been an enigma for me since as far back as I can remember. There is a reason Barney had to keep his bullet in his pocket...but even then, idiots like that aren't safe.

Whenever we delegate privalage based on anything other than fairness we are paving the road. Today most privileges have become something that can be bought and sold or favored to you by sucking up....but genuine fairness is all but gone.

My point??? Not a lot you can do about it, call a turd a turd, then just ignore, never support the idiots and carry on.

loopdeeloop

My Feedback: (4)

How about posting a few that you've seen. I've been to lots of clubs and have never seen what I consider to be an "Officer-only or Important Person Rule". Just because an officer or an old-timer proposes something and it is implemented does not mean it for his/her benefit only. Complaints about how a club is run is no different than complaints about local, state, and national politics. If you don't like it, you have options -- it's called participation. I have seen lots of electric only, no jets, no helicopter, no pipes, and mufflers are required rules however, but those are club specific and not person of interest type of rules. There have been lots of comments about no-turbines policy so just a word about that. Not every club has a runway or airspace that can handle turbines so that's one reason for the rule. Our club has a fabric runway and taxiways. Although we do not have a no-turbine policy, lighting off a turbine on this surface can be a potential issue. I can also understand clubs that prohibit heli's, especially if the flight box is relatively limited. Again, we have a small field but we do not have a no heli policy. In fact we have a helipad. Our members provide ample opportunity for the heli folks to fly during which the fixed wing folks watch. If your club leaders and members work as a team and not as a special interest group there are very few issues. Our club hosts a regional heli only event and a national glider only event each year. Folks can work together for the betterment of the hobby and your clubs. When more than one person is involved there is bound to be disagreement but properly managed, things get worked out.

StevL

Wow, which club was this?

Steve

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Yea...i'd like to meet the guy with 10 vertebrae in his neck too.

StevL

Also being a CD I can say I've had very few problems, almost none. The two times that something needed to be brought to a pilots attention (two different pilots years apart) I try to be very polite and friendly. I start with a "I would appreciate if you", and end it with a "thank you". Only once I had to go back and say "please" and again end it with "I appreciate your cooperation". If it ever came to a third conversation I would walk them away from the other pilots and spectators where we could escalate the conversation if needed.

The most important thing is to cover the basic safety issues at your pilots meeting, it only takes a few minutes and clears the way if you have a problem.

Steve

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

[QUOTE=loopdeeloop;11693041]How about posting a few that you've seen.
OK How about an x club president (now board member) trying to get his YS to pop while Under the shelter not tied down and the present Vice Presedent and good buddy says hey (Name with held) U can't start that here on the (set up) tables. Answer by (Name withheld) OH I'm trying it to draw fuel and pop. But nothing was said or done when he continued for another few minutes to make it POP..... Granted we all break (BEND) the RULES now and then but there are those that take it to the EXTREAM. That's just one of the lateest examples. All I'm saying and we all know it some people are more exempt than others and that's so wrong. Our Safty coloum in the club news letter is almost word for word every month. Fly out further, don't cross the dead line, don't arm (connect the Lypo) in the pits .... ect ect ect.
all I'm saying is we shouldn't have to have this discussions like this but it keeps poping it's ugly head 2 or 3 times a year.
Again NUFF SAID sorry for the rant but someone asked. anyway MERRY CHRISTmas Hope ya all got what ya asked Santa (Mrs., Kids. Gran Kids) for.

804

My Feedback: (1)

I can find only two AMA rules that might apply. Maybe there's more, I couldn't find them.

The first is no flying within 25 feet of anyone but the pilot and helpers on the flight line.
OP said the flyer "pulled up into an Immelman type maneuver" 50-75 feet from the pits and spectators.
If this put the spectators closer than 25 feet to the aircraft, then end of story, he broke the rules.
But, we don't know that, because the OP left out the field layout dimensions.

The other is no careless or reckless flying. That's pretty subjective, but is probably the basis the OP used
to make his decision. And yes, we have established the CD has the authority to make that decision.
I agree with some who have said it might depend on what type (size, speed, weight) aircraft the flyer was using.
But, again, no info from the OP on that either.

Edit:
Just came back and read this post,
and realized the last sentence was a crappy and hypocritical thing to say.
My apologies to the OP.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

[QUOTE=HoundDog;11693057]That's a good one HoundDog as I've seen the very same thing happen...and by the very ones that made a motion for, seconded and voted the rule in... Nothing new since there will always be those that are more equal than others.

That's an example of how things come crashing down...when you favor one group, they will always want more...all the the while the other group will become alienated...the favored group will make demands until everything eventually crumbles in on its on weight. Fairness is much more than a moral concept...it is the foundation for any structure to survive.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I am so proud that one of you gets it !
No doubt, this man was born a leader. This is something you simply can't teach.