Insurance - AMA dues - Are we paying our fair share
05-30-2015, 03:12 AM
#103
100lb aircraft - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrBl3eDxgH4
Imagine what our hobby would look like if there was a headline like this afterwards: "Six year old boy on life support after drone crash" with the first couple sentences reading like this: "A six year old boy remains on life support after he was high by a drone this weekend; six others were injured, two serious, and four minor. The boy was attending a model airplane show with his parents and infant sister when a hundred pound model veered out of control and crashed into the crowd, striking the boy. He sustained critical injuries after being struck in the head by one 20 inch sharp spinning propeller on one of the engines." Reading on we see things like "Calls to the event sponsor and pilot were not returned." Then after explaining what AMA is etc., we read this: "AMA recommended crowd setbacks were not followed."
I was taught "luck is not a plan." My solution would be to create separate pools of insurance. Easiest split would be to have anything require a waiver has their own pool. If they're as safe as they say, there won't be many payouts. But that way, it creates an incentive to be safe, as those with turbine waivers or large aircraft waivers are directly in control of their insurance costs and keep them low by being safe. It creates a situation where they self police instead of relying on the rest of us to subsidize.
Last edited by franklin_m; 05-30-2015 at 03:18 AM.
05-30-2015, 04:02 AM
#104
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True, but only because we've been lucky.
100lb aircraft - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrBl3eDxgH4
Imagine what our hobby would look like if there was a headline like this afterwards: "Six year old boy on life support after drone crash" with the first couple sentences reading like this: "A six year old boy remains on life support after he was high by a drone this weekend; six others were injured, two serious, and four minor. The boy was attending a model airplane show with his parents and infant sister when a hundred pound model veered out of control and crashed into the crowd, striking the boy. He sustained critical injuries after being struck in the head by one 20 inch sharp spinning propeller on one of the engines." Reading on we see things like "Calls to the event sponsor and pilot were not returned." Then after explaining what AMA is etc., we read this: "AMA recommended crowd setbacks were not followed."
That scenario would make the plaintiff bar drool. Cha Ching! Then again I could come up with 100 scenarios about events that were held over the past year where nothing happened. What's the point? Oh, in the scenario above rules weren't followed. So maybe the takeaway is that if the rules are followed things go as planned, and nobody gets hurt?
I was taught "luck is not a plan." My solution would be to create separate pools of insurance. Easiest split would be to have anything require a waiver has their own pool. If they're as safe as they say, there won't be many payouts. But that way, it creates an incentive to be safe, as those with turbine waivers or large aircraft waivers are directly in control of their insurance costs and keep them low by being safe. It creates a situation where they self police instead of relying on the rest of us to subsidize.
100lb aircraft - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrBl3eDxgH4
Imagine what our hobby would look like if there was a headline like this afterwards: "Six year old boy on life support after drone crash" with the first couple sentences reading like this: "A six year old boy remains on life support after he was high by a drone this weekend; six others were injured, two serious, and four minor. The boy was attending a model airplane show with his parents and infant sister when a hundred pound model veered out of control and crashed into the crowd, striking the boy. He sustained critical injuries after being struck in the head by one 20 inch sharp spinning propeller on one of the engines." Reading on we see things like "Calls to the event sponsor and pilot were not returned." Then after explaining what AMA is etc., we read this: "AMA recommended crowd setbacks were not followed."
That scenario would make the plaintiff bar drool. Cha Ching! Then again I could come up with 100 scenarios about events that were held over the past year where nothing happened. What's the point? Oh, in the scenario above rules weren't followed. So maybe the takeaway is that if the rules are followed things go as planned, and nobody gets hurt?
I was taught "luck is not a plan." My solution would be to create separate pools of insurance. Easiest split would be to have anything require a waiver has their own pool. If they're as safe as they say, there won't be many payouts. But that way, it creates an incentive to be safe, as those with turbine waivers or large aircraft waivers are directly in control of their insurance costs and keep them low by being safe. It creates a situation where they self police instead of relying on the rest of us to subsidize.
If the issue is safety, neither luck nor separate pools of insurance will decrease payouts. The hobby is already self policing itself and does a pretty good job overall, notwithstanding the comment about the B-29 that will assuredly be thrown out (and no injuries in that case either). How many events are held every year with no issues whatsoever?
05-30-2015, 04:33 AM
#105
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05-30-2015, 05:24 AM
#108
I guess those burns at a jet event didn't happen. I guess there hasn't been a member killed by his own helicopter. I guess the increase in AMA insurance claims, year over year at a rate well above growth in membership, isn't real either. And how many near misses or injuries go un-reported? In safety management programs, those near misses and minor injuries are called leading indicators. Small things that help you understand and prevent big things. But you can't learn from them if they're not systematically reported and shared. AMA has no such system in place. When there is a mishap, and whether it's a drone into an engine of a commercial airliner or a made for mass media injury at a sanctioned event, the change to our hobby will be swift and severe. We could try and prevent those things. But then again, why bother, as "How many events are held every year with no issue whatsoever?"
Last edited by franklin_m; 05-30-2015 at 05:46 AM.
05-30-2015, 05:47 AM
#110
05-30-2015, 06:13 AM
#111
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Visited an AMA sanctioned field once, location shall remain undisclosed, that the only logical flight path was over a heavily used concrete walking path and a heavily travelled and fished river, there were no other options due to ball fields, power lines, communication towers. To make matters worse, the flight path was in line of sight of microwave dishes, Urban sprawl had encroached this field and it needs to be relocated, simple as that. The club and the AMA's solution was to limit it to under .50 cid aircraft and electrics and helicopters, their being afraid to lose a venerable flying site. I complained to the district VP and that is what I was told. Point being, it is not always individuals creating a risk, sometimes it is the AMA itself. Let one 6 year old child get killed/maimed and see what happens to your flying site and they have just increased those odds. BTW franklin_m, it has been a number of years since AMA insurance rates have gone up so I don't think the argument that they have exceeded any membership growth rate ratio is a valid one. All this being said, every system has it's problems and the AMA is no different but I don't feel it is broke at this time, it may or may not be in the future, only time and conditions will tell.
05-30-2015, 07:16 AM
#112
True, but only because we've been lucky.
100lb aircraft - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrBl3eDxgH4
Imagine what our hobby would look like if there was a headline like this afterwards: "Six year old boy on life support after drone crash" with the first couple sentences reading like this: "A six year old boy remains on life support after he was high by a drone this weekend; six others were injured, two serious, and four minor. The boy was attending a model airplane show with his parents and infant sister when a hundred pound model veered out of control and crashed into the crowd, striking the boy. He sustained critical injuries after being struck in the head by one 20 inch sharp spinning propeller on one of the engines." Reading on we see things like "Calls to the event sponsor and pilot were not returned." Then after explaining what AMA is etc., we read this: "AMA recommended crowd setbacks were not followed."
I was taught "luck is not a plan." My solution would be to create separate pools of insurance. Easiest split would be to have anything require a waiver has their own pool. If they're as safe as they say, there won't be many payouts. But that way, it creates an incentive to be safe, as those with turbine waivers or large aircraft waivers are directly in control of their insurance costs and keep them low by being safe. It creates a situation where they self police instead of relying on the rest of us to subsidize.
100lb aircraft - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrBl3eDxgH4
Imagine what our hobby would look like if there was a headline like this afterwards: "Six year old boy on life support after drone crash" with the first couple sentences reading like this: "A six year old boy remains on life support after he was high by a drone this weekend; six others were injured, two serious, and four minor. The boy was attending a model airplane show with his parents and infant sister when a hundred pound model veered out of control and crashed into the crowd, striking the boy. He sustained critical injuries after being struck in the head by one 20 inch sharp spinning propeller on one of the engines." Reading on we see things like "Calls to the event sponsor and pilot were not returned." Then after explaining what AMA is etc., we read this: "AMA recommended crowd setbacks were not followed."
I was taught "luck is not a plan." My solution would be to create separate pools of insurance. Easiest split would be to have anything require a waiver has their own pool. If they're as safe as they say, there won't be many payouts. But that way, it creates an incentive to be safe, as those with turbine waivers or large aircraft waivers are directly in control of their insurance costs and keep them low by being safe. It creates a situation where they self police instead of relying on the rest of us to subsidize.
Again "If it ain't broke don't screw with it" leave well enough alone lest every ones rates goes through the roof
Every one has a war story or two about what can/has happened. Truth be known U are more likely to die in your car/truck on the way to or from the field than hurt/killed by a model of any size or type.
MY WAR STORY: At our Electric Festival I witnessed a guy (Spotter) get his scalp pealed back 3" from a Foam 24" ws F-86 Could of been worse. The only way to eliminate all hazards it to not participate in the Hobby/Sport.
Again Let's just let well enough alone "If it ain't broke don't screw with it" lest every ones rates goes through the roof
Last edited by HoundDog; 05-30-2015 at 07:29 AM.
05-30-2015, 09:01 AM
#113
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Worth noting. There is no such thing as an "AMA sanctioned field." Simply does not exist. AMA does not sanction, approve, ot in any other manner convey any recognition or authorization of a club (or non-club) flying site.
AMA does have general guidelines, which clubs are under no obligation to follow, but AMA itself has not process to approve or sanction a flying site.
AMA sanctions contests, charters clubs. Charted clubs may, or may not, have a flying site.
Seems nit-picky, but it is important to understand this point.
AMA does have general guidelines, which clubs are under no obligation to follow, but AMA itself has not process to approve or sanction a flying site.
AMA sanctions contests, charters clubs. Charted clubs may, or may not, have a flying site.
Seems nit-picky, but it is important to understand this point.
05-30-2015, 09:05 AM
#114
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AMA Vice Presidents have in a few instances exerted some control over a flying site by holding up the insurance renewal of a site they deemed unsafe. This happened at least twice in District X. It was VERY unpopular to say the least. But this is an extreme measure and is not something the AMA VPs do on a regular basis.
05-30-2015, 11:40 AM
#117
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Well if we are going to " pick nits" the AMA "Charters" clubs not flying fields. There is is the "option" for a small fee to have the landowner of the flying field named an "additional insired".
05-30-2015, 11:42 AM
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AMA leaves the set up and operation of a club flying site up to the club with the only requirement being that the AMA Safety Code is observed by the people using the field. Field Safety and operation is a 100% club function except in the most extreme situations.
05-30-2015, 11:45 AM
#119
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The flying site insurance is not really an "additionally insured" case either. It is a separate policy issued by the AMA when a club requests and pays for it. It names the site owner as the primary insured and unlike other AMA coverage is primary in nature.
05-30-2015, 12:47 PM
#120
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I have been an AMA member since 1962. When you try to categorize different types of flying to rate them as for insurance purposes, you open a can of worms. The time to do that by AMA would most likely cost us much more in the long run than the way it is currently. Quit being so cheap on the issue. I f you thought about it you should realize how inexpensive it is in todays time, and for a year in coverage, it really is a great price. In all my years of flying, I have never seen it used, but personally, with all the law suits today, I am very thankful we have it regardless of the cost.
A park flyer model has the potential to do a lot of harm as well as any other type of aircraft. Battery fires alone could potentially cause major damage. Be glad we have it available to us.
Waterflier
A park flyer model has the potential to do a lot of harm as well as any other type of aircraft. Battery fires alone could potentially cause major damage. Be glad we have it available to us.
Waterflier
05-30-2015, 05:44 PM
#123
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Have you ever been involved in a accident????? AMA is just like buying uninsured insurance those that have insurance this is just paying twice for those that don't. You must not know how AMA works first you have hope who ever is flying has home owners or renters insurance. If they don't then your home owners insurance has to pay. So AMA really never has to pay. Unless you max out both there and yours or both parties insurance they might step in. So I pay just to fly at my AMA field. I m glad that the man who flew his plane into my brand new 2 week old toy hauler had home owners they wrote me a $20,000. plus check. Otherwise I would have to claim his fault accident on my home owners and max my insurance before AMA steps in. So really if you have insurance you pretty much have to kill someone before AMA has to pay.
05-30-2015, 06:09 PM
#125
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Sorry about your thumb I am glad AMA helped but in my insurance situation any claim I have has to be over $300,000 to be maxed out. So I just contribute to those who need it and am happy to do it plus I have a nice field that requires it. So in all honesty its a group thing I am glad to pay in par for your thumb and those others AMA helps out I just don't agree that anyone should have to pay more based on what they fly. If anything it should be on how they fly we all know those people.