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Are you ready to register your aircraft?

Old 10-20-2015, 11:32 AM
  #301  
init4fun
 
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My Drone sleeps alone
Old 10-20-2015, 12:07 PM
  #302  
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Originally Posted by rgburrill View Post
BTW, the FAA has also recognized the AMA requirement that a person put his AMA number clearly visible on his models. I'm sure during this fact finding process they will find that most don't and that most clubs ignore it.
So long as an FAA rep can go to an AMA sanctioned event, AMA sanctioned club, etc. and find any number of members not complying with what AMA has been telling the FAA, then we're at risk of even more regulation. Hey AMA, the horse has left the barn. You spent $1,000,000 of our money in an attempt to avoid what was announced yesterday. That's a sunk cost. Recommend that you embrace registration and find a way to make it work -- and let the FAA see that you're making it work.
Old 10-20-2015, 12:33 PM
  #303  
Granpooba
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Originally Posted by mordock999 View Post
Not Register the "Plane" but the "Operator." Get Ready to PAY Periodically, for Federal LICENSE. And Heaven Help Us ALL if That License Requires "Compliance Inspections" from a Goverment Agency. Just Ask any FFL License Holder about Their dealings with the ATF. They'll Tell You....,
Already hold an ATR " Airline Transport Rating " which is the highest rating that you can hold. Don't think that I am about ready to pay for a license to fly a model airplane ! LOL
Old 10-20-2015, 12:36 PM
  #304  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
So long as an FAA rep can go to an AMA sanctioned event, AMA sanctioned club, etc. and find any number of members not complying with what AMA has been telling the FAA, then we're at risk of even more regulation. Hey AMA, the horse has left the barn. You spent $1,000,000 of our money in an attempt to avoid what was announced yesterday. That's a sunk cost. Recommend that you embrace registration and find a way to make it work -- and let the FAA see that you're making it work.
Yes, it seems reasonable to assume that the FAA will go to AMA sanctioned events and clubs to hunt down and find non compliance. More doom, more gloom, and what was that word you used in another thread, hyperbole? It's not going to happen, but that won't stop every horrible "what if" from being mentioned. And always as a result of something the AMA did, or didn't do. We need to set a date and time for everyone to get back together and mark up all the things that were "going to happen", versus what actually did.
Old 10-20-2015, 12:37 PM
  #305  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by Granpooba View Post
Already hold an ATR " Airline Transport Rating " which is the highest rating that you can hold. Don't think that I am about ready to pay for a license to fly a model airplane ! LOL
I doubt you'll be asked for that card at any AMA event anytime soon. Whatcha flying now?
Old 10-20-2015, 12:43 PM
  #306  
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Originally Posted by Granpooba View Post
Already hold an ATR " Airline Transport Rating " which is the highest rating that you can hold. Don't think that I am about ready to pay for a license to fly a model airplane ! LOL
Again, Don't Laugh. It would be far easier for the Government to Register the Operator than Model. And Maybe License the R/C Transmitters and Receivers, too. That way, the Feds can collect a tariff from from the R/C Car, Boat, Tank, and Submarine Guys, also. After all, Why Should "They" be Happy?
Old 10-20-2015, 12:46 PM
  #307  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
So long as an FAA rep can go to an AMA sanctioned event, AMA sanctioned club, etc. and find any number of members not complying with what AMA has been telling the FAA, then we're at risk of even more regulation. Hey AMA, the horse has left the barn. You spent $1,000,000 of our money in an attempt to avoid what was announced yesterday. That's a sunk cost. Recommend that you embrace registration and find a way to make it work -- and let the FAA see that you're making it work.
I'm not sure why you continue to repeatedly to assert individual AMA member responsibility on the AMA organization itself.

Maybe that FAA rep will simply warn/fine those individuals who are non-compliant?
Old 10-20-2015, 12:49 PM
  #308  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
Yes, it seems reasonable to assume that the FAA will go to AMA sanctioned events and clubs to hunt down and find non compliance. More doom, more gloom, and what was that word you used in another thread, hyperbole? It's not going to happen, but that won't stop every horrible "what if" from being mentioned. And always as a result of something the AMA did, or didn't do.


We need to set a date and time for everyone to get back together and mark up all the things that were "going to happen", versus what actually did.
Doom and gloom status check would be great!
Old 10-20-2015, 01:09 PM
  #309  
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Dear Members,

As you might be aware, in a press conference on Monday October 19, 2015, the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) announced its intent to require registration for certain small unmanned aircraft systems (sUAS).

Led by Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx and FAA Administrator Michael Huerta, a concept was laid out calling for the creation of a task force to develop a plan to implement the registration process.

AMA was represented at the press conference by Government and Regulatory Affairs Representative Rich Hanson who offered comments on behalf of our organization. Representatives from the Association for Unmanned Vehicles Systems International (AUVSI) and the Air Line Pilots Association also provided input. A video of the press conference can be found here.
AMA has also been invited to participate in the task force which has been charged with completing its work by mid-November 2015.

The DOT is looking at the full spectrum of sUAS that would be subject to registration, and AMA agrees that registration may be appropriate at some level; however, before the process can be established, AMA believes that a threshold must be identified that will determine which platforms, what aircraft with what capabilities, will require registration and which will not.

AMA believes that traditional model aircraft, as well as the “toy-type” drones with minimal capability would fall below the threshold and not be subject to the registration process.

In a prepared statement released yesterday, AMA was clear in its position that any required registration process “should not become a prohibitive burden for recreational users who fly for fun and educational purposes and who have operated harmoniously within our communities for decades.”

AMA does not and will not support any proposal that calls for the registration of any sUAS that fall below an established threshold and is resolute in its position that all forms of traditional model aircraft must remain exempt from the registration process.
Old 10-20-2015, 01:22 PM
  #310  
mongo
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that prepared statement is available in the AMA blogs section of the members site.

for those what haven't rx the email with the link yet.
Old 10-20-2015, 01:33 PM
  #311  
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Why do we elect and appoint moronic thinkers to positions of power in our government. Shame on us.

I always amazes me that this country's answer to someones bad behavior is to pass a law. A law that will impose itself on only the people that are the least likely to violate it.

The only guys that are going to register their drones are the guys that are most likely to follow existing rules.

It's like jumping on a bandwagon to limit the numbers of bullets a magazine can hold. Like that law is going to make a difference to anything or anyone. There is already a pretty specific law against MURDER. Yet it does not stop bad people from murdering. Just now they will have to carry more magazines, well if they were following the laws in the first place. By their nature murderers are not law abiding citizens, they are MURDERS! No matter how many silly laws are dreamed up to make some bureaucrat feel like he/she is making a difference, people break laws, In addition to the serious ones the are also very likely to break the new silly ones.

Registration of drones!! As Hillary Clinton says "What difference does it make!!"

Bust a few guys flying close to Air Liners and make an example out of them. It should be easy. The way it's been reported there are two or three of them hanging out on final of every major airport. Send a couple of them to jail for endangering an airliner. Give them a fine for more money than they make in a lifetime. The word will travel quickly.

They should also throw a few drones into test turbofan engines along with the frozen turkeys. Document the damage or lack of it.

Airliners hit hundreds of big birds every year. Some drones are more substantial than others but many are not as robust as a Canadian Goose.

Spend your money on testing and informing any wood be "Drone-o-rists" of the consequences of any stupid acts. Guaranteed the stupid ones are never going to register their drones.

Common sense is not that common.

Happy Flying
Old 10-20-2015, 01:54 PM
  #312  
r_adical
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Originally Posted by Granpooba View Post
Already hold an ATR " Airline Transport Rating " which is the highest rating that you can hold. Don't think that I am about ready to pay for a license to fly a model airplane ! LOL
The bad part about this is still their ability to get all of us "violated" if we hold a full size rating, because we are supposed to know better
Old 10-20-2015, 01:55 PM
  #313  
larry@coyotenet
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I will have to admit that some of those definitions of "drone" apply to this discussion, especially #2
Old 10-20-2015, 02:04 PM
  #314  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by r_adical View Post
The bad part about this is still their ability to get all of us "violated" if we hold a full size rating, because we are supposed to know better
If you don't do nuttin wrong, you won't get caught.

Those that break the law and are caught should pay the price.
Old 10-20-2015, 02:27 PM
  #315  
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I look at it just like registering my guns......NO!!!
Old 10-20-2015, 02:30 PM
  #316  
MinnSpin
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This seems a bit like the silly notion that we'll be registering ALL firearms and their respective ammunition.
Old 10-20-2015, 03:04 PM
  #317  
handyman
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i have no problem with any thing that will save our hobby...most of the crap that happens isnt really AMA members but to keep us in good standing why not do it...........these so called toys can HURT, KILL AND BRING DOWN A REAL PLANE............so lets do what we need to and make it work...........
Old 10-20-2015, 05:51 PM
  #318  
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Originally Posted by mongo View Post
notice, that, this is being done by the DOT, not the FAA.
our exemption from Faa regulation does not apply to the department of transportation.
I noticed when you said it right there on page 1 of this thread, but I guess you were too subtle and assumed that the implications would be obvious. I'll try blatant instead:

SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
(a) IN GENERAL
.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law
relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into
Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this
subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration
may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model
aircraft,
or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if................
It does not say "DOT (or any other govt. agency) may not promulgate any rule or regulation...."

The FAA lawyers are responding in kind to AMA's end run around FAA. Give them a "well played" if only for the irony of it.
Old 10-20-2015, 06:43 PM
  #319  
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Umm... The FAA is an agency within the DOT. And when the Section 336 question was asked they cleverly dodged it by saying that registration is not regulation!!
Old 10-20-2015, 06:56 PM
  #320  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
If you don't do nuttin wrong, you won't get caught.

Those that break the law and are caught should pay the price.
It's not a case of "don't do nuttin wrong", it's becoming near impossible to NOT do something wrong today. What's really sad is that the sport I've loved and participated in for over 60 years has now gained the potential to make me a criminal because THE LAW CHANGED, UNLAWFULLY!!!!!!! The sport's the same, the government has become a dictatorship and WILL rule as it desires - citizens be damned.

Almost makes me sorry for those 22 years I spent in uniform protecting it.

And, NO, I will not register and make myself a more of a target than I am anyway.
Old 10-20-2015, 07:05 PM
  #321  
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Originally Posted by handyman View Post
i have no problem with any thing that will save our hobby...most of the crap that happens isnt really AMA members but to keep us in good standing why not do it...........these so called toys can HURT, KILL AND BRING DOWN A REAL PLANE............so lets do what we need to and make it work...........
So can a turban toy Jet, IMAC model, every thing but a maybe a fomey can bring down a passenger plane. But Because of where and how we fly it is highly unlikely Our record of 75 years of operations with out any rel problems. Registration sUAV's (QUADS) is about as useless as registering guns. Registering Guns has never stopped one shooting and it never will. As for Exempting small toy sUAV's (QUADS) is ludicrous. It's the Small Quads, and the IDIOTS flying them, causing all the Sightings by Pilots. The only exception might be the Quads that got Airborne Fire Tankers grounded. Again JMHO.
Old 10-20-2015, 07:14 PM
  #322  
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Just Look at what Documents it takes to just prove that an air plane is legal to fly This is what happens when the FAA is involved with anything. This doesn't even come close o all the regs that govern the airworthiness of a certified airplane.

[h=2]Required Documents—In the Aircraft[/h]Students are taught the mnemonic ARROW—Airworthiness Certificate, Registration, Radio License, Operating Limitations, Weight and Balance for remembering the required documents. This article discusses the regulations behind the mnemonic and expands a bit on what is meant.
[h=3]Airworthiness Certificate and Registration[/h]These are fairly straightforward. Every aircraft has an airworthiness certificate issued by the manufacturer and must have a current FAA registration. Information on registrations can be found at this FAA web site.
§ 91.203 Civil aircraft: Certifications required.
(a) Except as provided in §91.715, no person may operate a civil aircraft unless it has within it the following:
(1) An appropriate and current airworthiness certificate. Each U.S. airworthiness certificate used to comply with this subparagraph (except a special flight permit, a copy of the applicable operations specifications issued under §21.197(c) of this chapter, appropriate sections of the air carrier manual required by parts 121 and 135 of this chapter containing that portion of the operations specifications issued under §21.197(c), or an authorization under §91.611) must have on it the registration number assigned to the aircraft under part 47 of this chapter. However, the airworthiness certificate need not have on it an assigned special identification number before 10 days after that number is first affixed to the aircraft. A revised airworthiness certificate having on it an assigned special identification number, that has been affixed to an aircraft, may only be obtained upon application to an FAA Flight Standards district office.
(2) An effective U.S. registration certificate issued to its owner or, for operation within the United States, the second duplicate copy (pink) of the Aircraft Registration Application as provided for in §47.31(b), or a registration certificate issued under the laws of a foreign country.
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless the airworthiness certificate required by paragraph (a) of this section or a special flight authorization issued under §91.715 is displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance so that it is legible to passengers or crew.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft with a fuel tank installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage compartment unless the installation was accomplished pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, and a copy of FAA Form 337 authorizing that installation is on board the aircraft.
(d) No person may operate a civil airplane (domestic or foreign) into or out of an airport in the United States unless it complies with the fuel venting and exhaust emissions requirements of part 34 of this chapter.
[h=3]Radio License[/h]On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket No. 96-82 (text) eliminating the individual licensing requirement for all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically. All other aircraft radio stations must be licensed by the FCC either individually or by fleet.
Aircraft operating domestically do not land in a foreign country or communicate via radio with foreign ground stations. Flying in international or foreign airspace is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign destination, however, (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands) a license is required.
Licenses can be obtained on-line from this FCC web site. A license is required for the aircraft and each operator. Form 605 is used for both and can be filled out on-line. For the Aircraft Radio Station License, use radio service code “AC”, and for the Restricted Radio Operator’s Permit, use “RR”.
[h=3]Operating Limitations[/h]An FAA approved Flight Manual (AFM) is required to be in the aircraft for all aircraft over 6,000 lbs and for aircraft manufactured after March 1, 1979. In addition, the Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) specifies placards and markings that are required. These placards may include, aircraft category, whether aerobatics or spins are approved, airspeed limitations for flaps and gear, and takeoff and landing checklists. Additional placards may be required by Airworthiness Directives for specific aircraft. One example is AD 79-15-01, requiring a placard next to the fuel gauges detailing the steps required to handle a fuel vapor lock. Some Supplemental Type Certificates (STCs) require additions to the AFM and must be kept in the aircraft. The operating manuals for GPSs, autopilots, and engines usually have this requirement. STCs for things that don’t have an operating component, like exhaust systems or mirrors, do not usually require changes to the AFM.
§ 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.
(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft—
(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by §21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in §121.141(b); and
(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by §21.5 of this chapter[First flight prior to March 1, 1979], unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.
(c) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft unless that aircraft is identified in accordance with part 45 of this chapter.
(d) Any person taking off or landing a helicopter certificated under part 29 of this chapter at a heliport constructed over water may make such momentary flight as is necessary for takeoff or landing through the prohibited range of the limiting height-speed envelope established for the helicopter if that flight through the prohibited range takes place over water on which a safe ditching can be accomplished and if the helicopter is amphibious or is equipped with floats or other emergency flotation gear adequate to accomplish a safe emergency ditching on open water.
§ 21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft that was not type certificated with an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and that has had no flight time prior to March 1, 1979, the holder of a Type Certificate (including a Supplemental Type Certificate) or the licensee of a Type Certificate shall make available to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
(b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of this section must contain the following information:
(1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or rotorcraft was type certificated.
(2) The maximum ambient atmospheric temperature for which engine cooling was demonstrated must be stated in the performance information section of the Flight Manual, if the applicable regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated do not require ambient temperature on engine cooling operating limitations in the Flight Manual.
§ 121.141 Airplane flight manual.
(a) Each certificate holder shall keep a current approved airplane flight manual for each type of airplane that it operates except for nontransport category airplanes certificated before January 1, 1965.
(b) In each airplane required to have an airplane flight manual in paragraph (a) of this section, the certificate holder shall carry either the manual required by §121.133, if it contains the information required for the applicable flight manual and this information is clearly identified as flight manual requirements, or an approved Airplane Manual. If the certificate holder elects to carry the manual required by §121.133, the certificate holder may revise the operating procedures sections and modify the presentation of performance data from the applicable flight manual if the revised operating procedures and modified performance date presentation are—
(1) Approved by the Administrator; and
(2) Clearly identified as airplane flight manual requirements.
[h=3]Weight and Balance[/h]Every textbook I checked says that a document showing the current weight and balance is required to be in the aircraft. None of them cite a source for the requirement. The FARs do not specifically state “a weight and balance report is required to be in the aircraft”. There are two cases where the regulations do require a Weight and Balance in the aircraft. First, if it is specified in the TCDS and second if the aircraft was manufactured after March 1, 1979 and therefore requires an AFM.
The aircraft I fly do not require a weight and balance in the TCDS. The TCDS may contain language like:
Current weight and balance report including list of equipment included in certificated weight empty, and loading instructions when necessary, must be in each aircraft at the time of original certification and at all times thereafter…
If an AFM is required, then the following section requires that weight and balance information be included in the AFM.
§ 25.1583 Operating limitations.
(c) Weight and loading distribution. The weight and center of gravity limitations established under §25.1519 must be furnished in the Airplane Flight Manual. All of the following information, including the weight distribution limitations established under §25.1519, must be presented either in the Airplane Flight Manual or in a separate weight and balance control and loading document that is incorporated by reference in the Airplane Flight Manual:
(1) The condition of the airplane and the items included in the empty weight as defined in accordance with §25.29.
(2) Loading instructions necessary to ensure loading of the airplane within the weight and center of gravity limits, and to maintain the loading within these limits in flight.
(3) If certification for more than one center of gravity range is requested, the appropriate limitations, with regard to weight and loading procedures, for each separate center of gravity range.
This article makes the case that the weight and balance is required by FAR § 91.103 Preflight action. (2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) [Not requiring an AFM] of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.
It seems a bit of a stretch to say that
Old 10-20-2015, 07:36 PM
  #323  
HoundDog
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Originally Posted by skylark-flier View Post
It's not a case of "don't do nuttin wrong", it's becoming near impossible to NOT do something wrong today. What's really sad is that the sport I've loved and participated in for over 60 years has now gained the potential to make me a criminal because THE LAW CHANGED, UNLAWFULLY!!!!!!! The sport's the same, the government has become a dictatorship and WILL rule as it desires - citizens be damned.

Almost makes me sorry for those 22 years I spent in uniform protecting it.

And, NO, I will not register and make myself a more of a target than I am anyway.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Around 1790, Historian Alexander Tyler listed the 8 phases of a Democracy:

Stages of Democracy - Where's the U.S.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. From Bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Where do you think present day USA falls on this list?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Old 10-20-2015, 07:39 PM
  #324  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
Umm... The FAA is an agency within the DOT. And when the Section 336 question was asked they cleverly dodged it by saying that registration is not regulation!!

US Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx did all the talking. Why so if his subordinate, the Administrator of FAA who happened to be in attendance, is singularly the cognizant authority for this? Seems to me that the Secretary of DOT deems the impact of this issue has scope beyond the purview of just one of the agencies in his Department and is taking action accordingly.
Old 10-21-2015, 05:09 AM
  #325  
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I think that the ; clubs,club officers,and title holders of the club's flying area; should be concerned about there liability on
these issues. The legal beagles always go to where the most $$$ lives! The AMA insurance won't go far in today's world.
It costs a lot of money to prove a case of not my problem!

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