WAKE UP AMA. Another field closed!!
11-15-2015, 06:21 PM
#226
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
Repeating a lie (there is not other word for repeating an untrue and undocumented statement over and over) which comes as a conclusion obtained by faulty logic does not make it true, even if you repeat it "ad nauseam".
Funny, it doesn't stop others from doing exactly that. Plenty of examples of that here and elsewhere in AMA threads.
The only concern we all have is that the AMA is taking Model Aviation association down a path of government regulation which we do not want or deserve, as the targeted group for this regulation (which has already begun and will only become increasing) is Drones, an not Model Aviation as it has been practiced for 78 years under the AMA.
AMA didn't take take the association down the path of government regulation, that is about the biggest falsehood out there. I don't call it a lie because I don't think it's being repeated knowingly as a lie...just as a huge grossly mistaken assumption. Govt regulation was coming...AMA or not. There was absolutely no path the AMA...and organization dealing primarily with MODEL AVIATION...could have stayed out of the fray. It would have been the most ill advised thing they ever could have done.
For the record, Dave Johnson, owner and CEO of Desert Aircraft, has a huge vested interest in Drones: he nevertheless completely agrees that drones need to have their own organization separate from the AMA.
Funny, it doesn't stop others from doing exactly that. Plenty of examples of that here and elsewhere in AMA threads.
The only concern we all have is that the AMA is taking Model Aviation association down a path of government regulation which we do not want or deserve, as the targeted group for this regulation (which has already begun and will only become increasing) is Drones, an not Model Aviation as it has been practiced for 78 years under the AMA.
AMA didn't take take the association down the path of government regulation, that is about the biggest falsehood out there. I don't call it a lie because I don't think it's being repeated knowingly as a lie...just as a huge grossly mistaken assumption. Govt regulation was coming...AMA or not. There was absolutely no path the AMA...and organization dealing primarily with MODEL AVIATION...could have stayed out of the fray. It would have been the most ill advised thing they ever could have done.
For the record, Dave Johnson, owner and CEO of Desert Aircraft, has a huge vested interest in Drones: he nevertheless completely agrees that drones need to have their own organization separate from the AMA.
11-15-2015, 06:23 PM
#227
Why wouldn't they look for a membership angle as well, which of course comes with dues as well? Like more members and more dues are bad? Don't most organizations want to grow, or at least strengthen themselves? The "drone" fireworks were coming with or without the AMA's involvement....I think most agree on that point.
11-15-2015, 06:25 PM
#228
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
"I'm not Anti Drone either".
If that's the truth U sure fooling every one
There is always plenty of time for the AMA to incorporate FPV style flight AFTER the lines that separate what sets AMA Flyers apart from rogue drone operators has been clearly defined and indelibly etched into the minds of our law makers and of the public.
That would be all well and good they are not clairvoyant or have a crystal ball. None of this was foreseeable. What was a big hint though was when the FAA decided to Interpret the amendment #336 to P.L.112-95 completely opposite the way it was intended.
If that's the truth U sure fooling every one
There is always plenty of time for the AMA to incorporate FPV style flight AFTER the lines that separate what sets AMA Flyers apart from rogue drone operators has been clearly defined and indelibly etched into the minds of our law makers and of the public.
That would be all well and good they are not clairvoyant or have a crystal ball. None of this was foreseeable. What was a big hint though was when the FAA decided to Interpret the amendment #336 to P.L.112-95 completely opposite the way it was intended.
11-15-2015, 06:26 PM
#229
I agree , there were some strange sockpuppets around then , doing their level best to goad Horrace into saying things that they then jumped on , even though he was speaking the truth . I'll admit I don't vote in every election , but I did vote for him since I believed he had good intentions and vision for what the RC model aircraft hobby needs .
Anyway , Crispy , you said you know of no one . Well , there ya go , Horrace is someone , and look where his good intentions for the AMA got him ...
Anyway , Crispy , you said you know of no one . Well , there ya go , Horrace is someone , and look where his good intentions for the AMA got him ...
11-15-2015, 06:38 PM
#230
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
I agree , there were some strange sockpuppets around then , doing their level best to goad Horrace into saying things that they then jumped on , even though he was speaking the truth . I'll admit I don't vote in every election , but I did vote for him since I believed he had good intentions and vision for what the RC model aircraft hobby needs .
Anyway , Crispy , you said you know of no one . Well , there ya go , Horrace is someone , and look where his good intentions for the AMA got him ...
Anyway , Crispy , you said you know of no one . Well , there ya go , Horrace is someone , and look where his good intentions for the AMA got him ...
He rubbed many the wrong way. I once asked (years ago) some questions about 501 paperwork I was working on for our club. His response was basically drop dead and figure it out for myself. They guy never had a chance to win. Would he have been good or bad? Who knows.
Mike,
Mike,
Sorry, he had his chance and took it (more than once I may add), and had nobody to blame for his loss other than himself. The issue that has been discussed here, that of the soft "people skills" and the ability to get along with others was a central theme. He has this board practically all to himself to campaign and routinely lost it with people...to blame others and call them "shills" is preposterous. Nobody forced him to respond. I recall him being asked repeatedly about the drone issue and he tried to take the politicians way out with non answers...it failed in a big way. Also his own posts about all his conspiracy issues didn't help either. And all the posts about his history of issues with clubs, people, and the AMA didn't help. Muddied the waters and distracted people from hearing his message. At the end of the day he was soundly defeated. He did not seem like the type of leader that was going to be able to sit in a room with others who held opposing opinions, and try to work things out, imo.
That being said, at least he had a vision, had some suggestions for what he felt was going to better the organization He put a lot of time and effort and energy into his campaign and lost fair and square. A million kudos to him for trying.
11-15-2015, 07:10 PM
#232
Chris, the only point I was trying to make is that AMA is a substantial business. It needs to earn revenue in excess of expenses to stay solvent. At $9M per year it is a substantial size association. Sure it's not the Chamber, it's not the doctor's AMA, but as size goes, it's not small peanuts. The numbers don't lie. I just find it amusing that certain people make AMA out as some small mom and pop shop. It isn't. For the record $17M in assets would be envied by a great many associations in this world. I'm sure we'd all like to be nostalgic and think about the days when AMA was a small group of enthusiasts thing to promote model aviation. Bottom line 2015 is it is a business... non-profit but a business. 501C3 just means that revenue and expenses need to be neutral over time. Any more detail and we should ask an accountant. 
.
.
Last edited by kdunlap; 11-15-2015 at 07:13 PM.
11-15-2015, 07:28 PM
#233
Chris, the only point I was trying to make is that AMA is a substantial business. It needs to earn revenue in excess of expenses to stay solvent. At $9M per year it is a substantial size association. Sure it's not the Chamber, it's not the doctor's AMA, but as size goes, it's not small peanuts. The numbers don't lie. I just find it amusing that certain people make AMA out as some small mom and pop shop. It isn't. For the record $17M in assets would be envied by a great many associations in this world. I'm sure we'd all like to be nostalgic and think about the days when AMA was a small group of enthusiasts thing to promote model aviation. Bottom line 2015 is it is a business... non-profit but a business. 501C3 just means that revenue and expenses need to be neutral over time. Any more detail and we should ask an accountant. .
.
11-15-2015, 07:33 PM
#234
Sorry, he had his chance and took it (more than once I may add), and had nobody to blame for his loss other than himself. The issue that has been discussed here, that of the soft "people skills" and the ability to get along with others was a central theme. He has this board practically all to himself to campaign and routinely lost it with people...to blame others and call them "shills" is preposterous. Nobody forced him to respond. I recall him being asked repeatedly about the drone issue and he tried to take the politicians way out with non answers...it failed in a big way. Also his own posts about all his conspiracy issues didn't help either. And all the posts about his history of issues with clubs, people, and the AMA didn't help. Muddied the waters and distracted people from hearing his message. At the end of the day he was soundly defeated. He did not seem like the type of leader that was going to be able to sit in a room with others who held opposing opinions, and try to work things out, imo.
That being said, at least he had a vision, had some suggestions for what he felt was going to better the organization He put a lot of time and effort and energy into his campaign and lost fair and square. A million kudos to him for trying.
That being said, at least he had a vision, had some suggestions for what he felt was going to better the organization He put a lot of time and effort and energy into his campaign and lost fair and square. A million kudos to him for trying.
11-15-2015, 07:42 PM
#235
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
You sly porcine devil you....you're humor is subtle and sublime, but not enough to escape me.
All joking aside, I suppose anything is possible. He was certainly quite after the election, and has been ever since. I suspect you are 100% right on the possible voting outcome had he dialed it back a bit. I was serious though, at least he put himself out there and gave it a shot.
Pork on!
Last edited by porcia83; 11-15-2015 at 07:46 PM.
11-15-2015, 07:46 PM
#237
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
No evidence...no credibility.
Where were you when this was happening, did you see it unfold and report it, alert the members...do something about it? Or are you only talking about it now to deflect from the obvious outcome? Did someone force Hoss to respond, or is that another conspiracy?
He tried, he didn't make it, end of story.
Meanwhile, the field is still closed!
Last edited by porcia83; 11-15-2015 at 07:49 PM.
11-15-2015, 07:50 PM
#238
You sly porcine devil you....you're humor is subtle and sublime, but not enough to escape me.
All joking aside, I suppose anything is possible. He was certainly quite after the election, and has been ever since. I suspect you are 100% right on the possible voting outcome had he dialed it back a bit. I was serious though, at least he put himself out there and gave it a shot.
Pork on!
11-15-2015, 07:54 PM
#239
Have you no understanding of what truth means? At all?
No evidence...no credibility.
Where were you when this was happening, did you see it unfold and report it, alert the members...do something about it? Or are you only talking about it now to deflect from the obvious outcome? Did someone force Hoss to respond, or is that another conspiracy?
He tried, he didn't make it, end of story.
Meanwhile, the field is still closed!
No evidence...no credibility.
Where were you when this was happening, did you see it unfold and report it, alert the members...do something about it? Or are you only talking about it now to deflect from the obvious outcome? Did someone force Hoss to respond, or is that another conspiracy?
He tried, he didn't make it, end of story.
Meanwhile, the field is still closed!
You have total recall of all the events and issues involved with Hoss's dismissal but you have no recall of the Shill Accounts that blew in here.
I'll let your TRUTH AMNESIA speak for itself with those who were here during the campaign and were paying attention.
Your only hope is that nobody pays attention or takes notes.
11-15-2015, 08:12 PM
#240
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
Yes, taking notes no doubt...it was that critical a moment in elections across the globe. Good lord, things are taken so seriously. Sheesh. Lets go ahead and drag all those folks "paying attention and taking notes" into this thread to drag it down another rabbit hole of conspiracy. There really is no end is there? LoL.
I remember the build up to the election, and then the sounds of silence after. I guess the Green Berets Shills from the AMA did their thing and retreated knowing their jobs were done. Jeez. No I don't recall an onslaught of shills, and take notice of their count...you seem to pay particular attention to folks post counts as if that holds some type of currency. Maybe some did come here and try to crank him up, I don't recall it specifically. He didn't have to respond to anyone, and if it was really going on, I guess someone should have pointed that out to him, and the mods, and have it dealt with. Did you?
I remember the build up to the election, and then the sounds of silence after. I guess the Green Berets Shills from the AMA did their thing and retreated knowing their jobs were done. Jeez. No I don't recall an onslaught of shills, and take notice of their count...you seem to pay particular attention to folks post counts as if that holds some type of currency. Maybe some did come here and try to crank him up, I don't recall it specifically. He didn't have to respond to anyone, and if it was really going on, I guess someone should have pointed that out to him, and the mods, and have it dealt with. Did you?
11-15-2015, 08:49 PM
#241
Amazing.
You have total recall of all the events and issues involved with Hoss's dismissal but you have no recall of the Shill Accounts that blew in here.
I'll let your TRUTH AMNESIA speak for itself with those who were here during the campaign and were paying attention.
Your only hope is that nobody pays attention or takes notes.
You have total recall of all the events and issues involved with Hoss's dismissal but you have no recall of the Shill Accounts that blew in here.
I'll let your TRUTH AMNESIA speak for itself with those who were here during the campaign and were paying attention.
Your only hope is that nobody pays attention or takes notes.
Last edited by Chris P. Bacon; 11-16-2015 at 05:27 AM.
11-15-2015, 09:28 PM
#242
Yes, taking notes no doubt...it was that critical a moment in elections across the globe. Good lord, things are taken so seriously. Sheesh. Lets go ahead and drag all those folks "paying attention and taking notes" into this thread to drag it down another rabbit hole of conspiracy. There really is no end is there? LoL.
I remember the build up to the election, and then the sounds of silence after. I guess the Green Berets Shills from the AMA did their thing and retreated knowing their jobs were done. Jeez. No I don't recall an onslaught of shills, and take notice of their count...you seem to pay particular attention to folks post counts as if that holds some type of currency. Maybe some did come here and try to crank him up, I don't recall it specifically. He didn't have to respond to anyone, and if it was really going on, I guess someone should have pointed that out to him, and the mods, and have it dealt with. Did you?
I remember the build up to the election, and then the sounds of silence after. I guess the Green Berets Shills from the AMA did their thing and retreated knowing their jobs were done. Jeez. No I don't recall an onslaught of shills, and take notice of their count...you seem to pay particular attention to folks post counts as if that holds some type of currency. Maybe some did come here and try to crank him up, I don't recall it specifically. He didn't have to respond to anyone, and if it was really going on, I guess someone should have pointed that out to him, and the mods, and have it dealt with. Did you?
I recall 2 for sure.
Why Oh Why would you choose to exaggerate / fabricate something like that..?
Is that what they teach nowadays in False Reality 101 Class...?
BTW, there is no rule against [or anything technically wrong] with signing up here for the sole purpose of making comments...so why oh why would I report such to RCU...?
What a silly notion..but once again nice try at laying out some more smoke screen.
11-15-2015, 09:42 PM
#243
If you are denying the existence of what I remember as a pair of SHILL accounts then you are [along with Porcia] being reckless with your credibility.
11-16-2015, 03:25 AM
#244
Banned
My Feedback: (8)
So you didn't spot them at the time, nor did you do anything about it, is that correct?
The mods have repeatedly noted they don't allow shill/troll accounts, after all this time you surely you know that. Speaking of smokescreens it's interesting you talk on one hand about shills and trolls, but then note it's not a problem to join this site to make "comments". You know the difference.
But that issue aside.....who were the two stealthy covert op AMA shills that managed to infiltrate this site, sow seeds of discord, spread propaganda, and somehow force Hoss to lash out repeatedly. It looks like you pin his loss on them right? Not anything to do with Hoss right? By the way...at what point was his "dismissed"? He lost an election, that's all.
Evidence, or just more wild speculation?
The mods have repeatedly noted they don't allow shill/troll accounts, after all this time you surely you know that. Speaking of smokescreens it's interesting you talk on one hand about shills and trolls, but then note it's not a problem to join this site to make "comments". You know the difference.
But that issue aside.....who were the two stealthy covert op AMA shills that managed to infiltrate this site, sow seeds of discord, spread propaganda, and somehow force Hoss to lash out repeatedly. It looks like you pin his loss on them right? Not anything to do with Hoss right? By the way...at what point was his "dismissed"? He lost an election, that's all.
Evidence, or just more wild speculation?
Last edited by porcia83; 11-16-2015 at 03:28 AM.
11-16-2015, 05:26 AM
#245
Explain how / why RCU should intervene when recently created accounts appear for the purpose of using a forum at their website. Whether they appear to be SHILLS or not.
Several sites I use have rules against users creating multiple accounts. These sites also have active moderation and disable and/or delete accounts that appear to be duplicate accounts.
If you are denying the existence of what I remember as a pair of SHILL accounts then you are [along with Porcia] being reckless with your credibility.
I'm not denying any shill accounts. However, no number of shill accounts prevented Hoss from getting elected.elected. Hoss prevented Hoss from getting elected.
Several sites I use have rules against users creating multiple accounts. These sites also have active moderation and disable and/or delete accounts that appear to be duplicate accounts.
If you are denying the existence of what I remember as a pair of SHILL accounts then you are [along with Porcia] being reckless with your credibility.
I'm not denying any shill accounts. However, no number of shill accounts prevented Hoss from getting elected.elected. Hoss prevented Hoss from getting elected.
11-16-2015, 05:59 AM
#246
So you didn't spot them at the time, nor did you do anything about it, is that correct?
The mods have repeatedly noted they don't allow shill/troll accounts, after all this time you surely you know that. Speaking of smokescreens it's interesting you talk on one hand about shills and trolls, but then note it's not a problem to join this site to make "comments". You know the difference.
But that issue aside.....who were the two stealthy covert op AMA shills that managed to infiltrate this site, sow seeds of discord, spread propaganda, and somehow force Hoss to lash out repeatedly. It looks like you pin his loss on them right? Not anything to do with Hoss right? By the way...at what point was his "dismissed"? He lost an election, that's all.
Evidence, or just more wild speculation?
The mods have repeatedly noted they don't allow shill/troll accounts, after all this time you surely you know that. Speaking of smokescreens it's interesting you talk on one hand about shills and trolls, but then note it's not a problem to join this site to make "comments". You know the difference.
But that issue aside.....who were the two stealthy covert op AMA shills that managed to infiltrate this site, sow seeds of discord, spread propaganda, and somehow force Hoss to lash out repeatedly. It looks like you pin his loss on them right? Not anything to do with Hoss right? By the way...at what point was his "dismissed"? He lost an election, that's all.
Evidence, or just more wild speculation?
You are banking on the fact that I don't keep detailed records on hand of everything that I've ever witnessed or seen in print. Your best maneuver is use Capone's, "show proof or it didn't happen".
Of course I do not know who these characters were any more than I know who you or Crispy are. Don't play that silly game here.
11-16-2015, 06:07 AM
#247
My point has NOTHING to do with how effective the SHILL accounts were, only that a couple of accounts appeared to be created for the sole purpose of keeping Hoss out of Muncie.
Our resident SIDEWALK LAWYERS can cry "Wild Speculation" all they want....but this isn't a courtroom.
This is where people can draw their own conclusions based on what they see play out right here in print.
Our resident SIDEWALK LAWYERS can cry "Wild Speculation" all they want....but this isn't a courtroom.
This is where people can draw their own conclusions based on what they see play out right here in print.
11-16-2015, 06:24 AM
#248
I wonder if these threads would take on a different (and more useful) tone if the following rules were followed by all?
1. Thou shall notattack the person’s character instead of the argument. (Ad Hominem)
2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate an argument in order to make iteasier to attack. (Straw man fallacy)
3. Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. (Hastygeneralization)
4. Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true.(Begging the question)
5. Thou shall not claim that because an event occurred before another it mustthe cause. (Post Hoc/False cause)
6. Thou shall not reduce the argument to two possibilities. (False dichotomy)
7. Thou shall not argue that because of your ignorance a claim must be true orfalse. (Ad ignorantum)
8. Thou shall not assume that this follows that when there is no logicalconnection. (Non sequitur)
9. Thou shall not claim because a premise is popular it must be true.(Bandwagon fallacy)
10. Thou shall not use a false, untenable, or absurd result to argue that aclaim is false. (Reductio ad absurdum)
11. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof upon he who is questioning theclaim. (Burden of proof reversal)
Just a pipe dream! (but one can hope)
Regards,
Astro
1. Thou shall notattack the person’s character instead of the argument. (Ad Hominem)
2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate an argument in order to make iteasier to attack. (Straw man fallacy)
3. Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. (Hastygeneralization)
4. Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true.(Begging the question)
5. Thou shall not claim that because an event occurred before another it mustthe cause. (Post Hoc/False cause)
6. Thou shall not reduce the argument to two possibilities. (False dichotomy)
7. Thou shall not argue that because of your ignorance a claim must be true orfalse. (Ad ignorantum)
8. Thou shall not assume that this follows that when there is no logicalconnection. (Non sequitur)
9. Thou shall not claim because a premise is popular it must be true.(Bandwagon fallacy)
10. Thou shall not use a false, untenable, or absurd result to argue that aclaim is false. (Reductio ad absurdum)
11. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof upon he who is questioning theclaim. (Burden of proof reversal)
Just a pipe dream! (but one can hope)
Regards,
Astro
11-16-2015, 07:02 AM
#249
My Feedback: (193)
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Parrish,
FL
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Silent Aviator -- I think the AMA has a lot to do with flying sites. Their 'insurance' is connected to the safety line layout of the fields, altitude restrictions, airport proximity, etc, and those suggestions as you put it, must be followed. They are the rules. If you are saying they don't help in locating fields for members you're correct based on my 43 years in R/C. The Sport Flyers Association did help quite a bit, but I don't recall AMA ever doing that, except of course when they found the 'national' field for themselves, and us too of course. I get to the corn belt a lot.
11-16-2015, 07:09 AM
#250
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: El Paso,
TX
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Silent Aviator -- I think the AMA has a lot to do with flying sites. Their 'insurance' is connected to the safety line layout of the fields, altitude restrictions, airport proximity, etc, and those suggestions as you put it, must be followed. They are the rules. .
The suggestions below have been developed to promote improved field management. If you have a current fl ying site, study the suggested field lay-outs below to determine how the design and layout of your site compares. If there is room for improvement of your fi eld, we hope these samples will serve to guide you in your changes. If you are designing a new flying site, we offer these designs to assist you in your planning your site.
These suggestions are not mandatory requirements, and compliance with these suggestions does not, of course, guarantee that no accident will occur. The AMA recommends that individual clubs design their flying sites based not only on geographic area available but also on sound sensitivity, obstructions, proximity of neighbors, etc., while incorporating the suggestions presented below. The types of aircraft the site is anticipated to accommodate, such as Giant Scale or small electrics, may affect an increase or decrease of the entire layout, including distances.
When designing or redesigning any flying site, feel free to contact the AMA Flying Site Assistance Coordinator with any questions, comments, or concerns regarding specifications and layout.
Mike