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Yes or No , Do you think the AMA was right or wrong to embrace DRONES ?

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Yes or No , Do you think the AMA was right or wrong to embrace DRONES ?

Old 12-17-2015, 10:18 AM
  #476  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Hey Sport ,

With a little wallmart "toy grade" drone , yea , I agree it'd be like a bug getting squashed on your car's windshield .

But have you seen the size of some of those things ? Just as we model aircraft flyers have some pretty big ones , so too do the drone folks . In fact , the drone the channel 4 news here keeps showing when they air the story is almost 4 feet across which gotta go at least what ? maybe 5 or 10 pounds , maybe more for all I know ? A drone that large hitting a jet's windshield could very well penetrate it and it would only take once .

This is yet another reason why I'm such a firm believer in the separation of model aircraft & drones . Think of it like the separation of Church & State , See , not ALL segregation is bad , despite what all the new agey hopey changey politically correct folks would try to have ya believe
Most are not that big. This covers down to a half a pound. Most of the infractions have been smaller than 5 pounds. But even a 55 pound craft would not bring down an airliner, but may bring down a smaller GA aircraft. Case in point, it has never happened, and this is too much for such a small possibility. And won't help at all.
Old 12-17-2015, 10:34 AM
  #477  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
Most are not that big. This covers down to a half a pound. Most of the infractions have been smaller than 5 pounds. But even a 55 pound craft would not bring down an airliner, but may bring down a smaller GA aircraft. Case in point, it has never happened, and this is too much for such a small possibility. And won't help at all.
My friend , We do agree on the point that the registration won't help anything because the lawbreakers won't register . My bet is that the first drone that causes a mass casualty incident won't be wearing an FAA issued calling card .

But , my training as an FAA licensed A&P Mechanic tells me that anything much over 10 pounds , and certainly approaching 55 pounds , very well could cause the kind of damage we pray continues to have never happen . Of course I'll not say "Oh yea , 100% certain a 10 pound drone would be fatal to a jetliner" ... But I'll never get on board with the idea that it , under the absolute worst wrong circumstances , couldn't be .
Old 12-17-2015, 11:27 AM
  #478  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
My friend , We do agree on the point that the registration won't help anything because the lawbreakers won't register . My bet is that the first drone that causes a mass casualty incident won't be wearing an FAA issued calling card .

But , my training as an FAA licensed A&P Mechanic tells me that anything much over 10 pounds , and certainly approaching 55 pounds , very well could cause the kind of damage we pray continues to have never happen . Of course I'll not say "Oh yea , 100% certain a 10 pound drone would be fatal to a jetliner" ... But I'll never get on board with the idea that it , under the absolute worst wrong circumstances , couldn't be .

A large scale model hit the leading edge of a small biplane and the damage was a dented leading edge to the first spar. The pilot flew the plane home and did not bother to make an emergency landing. So I doubt a 55 pound plane would do much worse to an airliner, but of course it possibly could.
Old 12-17-2015, 12:55 PM
  #479  
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A drone getting sucked into an engine of a jet on takeoff, could be catastrophic. The Lipo battery would be the issue, not so much the drones frame, or motors, but that Lipo would burst into flames, and could cause the engine to shut down, and on a 2 engine 737, the loss of one engine on takeoff will bring it down. Considering Midway airport in Chicago is in the heart of the city, I could see this happening with some kid wanting to see a plane taking off up close and personal, without knowing anything about air turbulence from previous planes, and how it could cause the drone to go in an unintended direction.
Old 12-17-2015, 12:59 PM
  #480  
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A drone getting sucked into an engine of a jet on takeoff, could be catastrophic.
Doubffull, they are now designed to take an 8 pound bird strike and keep on going. But even if not there is more than one engine. Now GA planes is a different matter.
Old 12-17-2015, 01:34 PM
  #481  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
A large scale model hit the leading edge of a small biplane and the damage was a dented leading edge to the first spar. The pilot flew the plane home and did not bother to make an emergency landing. So I doubt a 55 pound plane would do much worse to an airliner, but of course it possibly could.
The piece of foam that put a hole in the leading edge of the shuttle Challenger weighed 1.67lbs and impacted the leading edge at a relative velocity between 500fps to 800fps (296kts - 473kts). A PDF copy of the analysis is provided for your convenience.

Airliners routinely exceed these speeds above 10000MSL. They can exceed 250KIAS below 10,000MSL if required for safety of flight. Military aircraft routinely exceed these speeds at altitudes as low as 500' AGL.

A 55lb sUAS impacting a full scale aircraft would result in considerable damage.

[ATTACH]2136258[/IMG]


NASA document: http://history.nasa.gov/columbia/Tro...s/FOAMIM~1.PDF
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
FOAMIM~1.PDF (199.4 KB, 7 views)
Old 12-17-2015, 01:35 PM
  #482  
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
A drone getting sucked into an engine of a jet on takeoff, could be catastrophic. The Lipo battery would be the issue, not so much the drones frame, or motors, but that Lipo would burst into flames, and could cause the engine to shut down, and on a 2 engine 737, the loss of one engine on takeoff will bring it down. Considering Midway airport in Chicago is in the heart of the city, I could see this happening with some kid wanting to see a plane taking off up close and personal, without knowing anything about air turbulence from previous planes, and how it could cause the drone to go in an unintended direction.
Concur. Sport has no understand of what even ingestion of a small bolt will do to turbine blades in a motor.
Old 12-17-2015, 01:38 PM
  #483  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
But , my training as an FAA licensed A&P Mechanic tells me that anything much over 10 pounds , and certainly approaching 55 pounds , very well could cause the kind of damage we pray continues to have never happen . Of course I'll not say "Oh yea , 100% certain a 10 pound drone would be fatal to a jetliner" ... But I'll never get on board with the idea that it , under the absolute worst wrong circumstances , couldn't be .
Concur. See above. I posted report showing that a 1.67 lb piece of foam at between 296Kts to 473Kts put a hole in the leading edge of shuttle Challenger. I can only imagine the damage a non-frangible 2-55lb sUAS would do to an aircraft.
Old 12-17-2015, 01:54 PM
  #484  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
Concur. Sport has no understand of what even ingestion of a small bolt will do to turbine blades in a motor.
+1. I doubt he would want to test his theory if he were a passenger. I doubt he doesn't understand it though...
Old 12-17-2015, 02:28 PM
  #485  
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Well so much for the Hobby when you put Profit before the personal safety and life of your fellow man in a nonprofit organization.
Old 12-17-2015, 02:36 PM
  #486  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
+1. I doubt he would want to test his theory if he were a passenger. I doubt he doesn't understand it though...
Sport's a good guy and I wouldn't want to see anyone test the theory . As Franklin pointed out with what happened to the shuttle , sometimes all it takes is something as seemingly innocent as a chunk of foam to cause disaster . The only reason that I mention my A&P training is not to brag or to try to pull some kind of rank as to who would know more about the mechanical aspects of turbine engines , it's because I saw films of exactly what even small amounts of foreign matter can do to a turbine engine , and likewise of engines that had sustained incredible damage and yet stayed running . It's truly "luck of the draw" whenever any foreign object is ingested and even though some engines survive that's no reason to believe that all turbine engines are "diesel locomotive tough" cause that's just not the case . Yes sir , the chances of an encounter are small , but increase with each and every drone that's put to the sky . The drone folks will say "but it's the same for model aircraft too !" without considering that the model aircraft will never leave it's operator's full unobstructed view whereas once the drone is BLOS there is no 360 degree view that insures it ain't 3 seconds away from disaster with a rapidly closing full scale . I do believe if a disaster of that sort is in the cards that it will be a drone and not a model aircraft that's involved . Pray it never happens , but if it does , pray also that enough healthy distance has been put between model aviation and drone ops by that time , so that our hobby may have a chance to survive . As it stands today , a horrific drone/airliner disaster would take us out as well , thanks to the presently non existent line between the two different types of flight ...
Old 12-17-2015, 03:05 PM
  #487  
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The airplane and helicopter crowd has been largely effective in policing itself. We didn't start showing up on The Today Show and the national news with regularity until drones entered the scene. My personal opinion, if the AMA cared about the core of it's membership, efforts would have been made to make a distinction for drones and park flyers from aircraft and helicopters and advocated unique sets of rules for each category, maybe we would have had a chance to prevent the regulation we're now all stuck with.

The scary part is that when the legislation increases, and it will since this registration scheme will likely have zero impact on curbing irresponsible activity, the drone and park-flyer crowd will easily walk away. Their investment is small. The committed and passionate will be stuck with the leftover mess. The American Way - penalize the responsible at the expense of a few boneheads...
Old 12-17-2015, 03:07 PM
  #488  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
I see almost no chance of a mid air tragedy, even if there is a mid air. Damage to the aircraft but no tragedy.
You consider a mid-air acceptable? Lol

Astro
Old 12-17-2015, 03:13 PM
  #489  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Sport's a good guy and I wouldn't want to see anyone test the theory . As Franklin pointed out with what happened to the shuttle , sometimes all it takes is something as seemingly innocent as a chunk of foam to cause disaster . The only reason that I mention my A&P training is not to brag or to try to pull some kind of rank as to who would know more about the mechanical aspects of turbine engines , it's because I saw films of exactly what even small amounts of foreign matter can do to a turbine engine , and likewise of engines that had sustained incredible damage and yet stayed running . It's truly "luck of the draw" whenever any foreign object is ingested and even though some engines survive that's no reason to believe that all turbine engines are "diesel locomotive tough" cause that's just not the case . Yes sir , the chances of an encounter are small , but increase with each and every drone that's put to the sky . The drone folks will say "but it's the same for model aircraft too !" without considering that the model aircraft will never leave it's operator's full unobstructed view whereas once the drone is BLOS there is no 360 degree view that insures it ain't 3 seconds away from disaster with a rapidly closing full scale . I do believe if a disaster of that sort is in the cards that it will be a drone and not a model aircraft that's involved . Pray it never happens , but if it does , pray also that enough healthy distance has been put between model aviation and drone ops by that time , so that our hobby may have a chance to survive . As it stands today , a horrific drone/airliner disaster would take us out as well , thanks to the presently non existent line between the two different types of flight ...
Brag all ya want.....just don't dislocate that shoulder.

Anyone who doesn't think something like a quad won't do damage to a turbine blade is either intentionally trying not to know...or just doesn't know. The same with a 10 pound octocopter wtih a 8S 10,000 mAH pack going into a 172's windshield. Forget the big stuff though....I've seen what FOD can do to a little 5 blade EDF fan. I had a piece of wiring get ingested into my 70mm DH Vampire Jet...that fan assembly shot out like the morning after Taco Bell. Sorry init..you started in earlier with the rear end talk. The light gauge wiring was cut in two..the fan blade completely gone. I know Sport is a good dude..and I know he knows better...he's just 'avin a go.
Old 12-17-2015, 05:25 PM
  #490  
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Originally Posted by islandflyer View Post
Petition to separate drones from Model Aircraft and AMA went over 100 in about 3 hours....not bad
We may not Like it but Drones are Here. They aren't ever going away. any time soon. It's time to Embrace them so as to Educate those flying Drones to How When & Where it is acceptable to fly these New Non-Traditional R/C TOYs. This is the responsibility of all of us that fly what is referred to as "Traditional R/C Toys", to Accomplish. If we fail we will certainly have the FAA/DOT wright more legislation restricting our "Safe" From of R/C flying. The Problem will be, because of a few that will not comply with The New Requirement for Registration of Operators of any form of Outdoor R/C Aviation related activities. If we fail to Enforce & Educate these Individuals, the News Media & the Public at large, Surly the Powers That Be i.e. FAA/DOT/NTSB will not stop at simple Registration. They will wight Legislation of a much grater restrictions that may really cripple the Hobby/Sport we all enjoy so much.
Endorsement and Education is the Easiest way to preserve the Hobby/Sport that has been assaulted because of the actions a very few individuals. It's our choice as to weather we continue to fight against the coming Flood or Drones or Accept the inevitable, Continue to fight it, and suffer the consequences of further Restrictive Legislation, that will certainly be far worse and far more restrictive, than what is before us now. It's Your/Our choice Go with the flow and change it's direction or Drowned in the coming Flood.
Old 12-17-2015, 05:40 PM
  #491  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
So , I figured as we roll on up to close to 500 posts , I'd take a look at some of the personal insults that have pervaded this thread . These that I've quoted , which aren't all of them by far , are examples of the nastiness that this question has brought out in some of the pro drone crowd . You may notice one poster's personal attacks are absent from the list , Sorry Hound , if I re posted all your attacks it would amount to re posting just about each and every post you've made to the thread , and we wouldn't want the massive bandwidth crunch to cripple RCU , now would we ? Fact of the matter no matter HOW hard the pro drone folks try to attack me or discredit the question is that by a large margin people here do think they're should be a healthy separation of model aircraft and drones ! So regardless of which side anyone is on , and since this sure does seem a question that's on a lot of folk's minds , could we please go on from here discussing the subject itself rather than posting the kinds of insults I've quoted above ?
INIT.
If It was personal insults U think I meant. I really apologize .... but I can't help if U are so thin skinned that when anyone doesn't agree with your point of view they are attacking U Personally. I can certainly assure U that The only thing I can say about that is It's Utterly STUPID on your Part. I'm sorry but U know what they say about STUPID. Unfortunately it's Just one of the Melodies that can not be "Fixed".
Stupidity I Mean of course.
Old 12-17-2015, 05:58 PM
  #492  
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Originally Posted by Prop_Washer2 View Post
Oh...GTF...over it, Duh...Drones are here and will remain here...go back to your Escapements and Free Flight models with Rubber Band Motors...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techno...1&ocid=UE01DHP
Prop_Washer2;
These Traditional R/C Flyers just don't get it. Every thing is going autonomous No Longer Controlled by a Human other told what to do. If these guys don't like drones it's their Problem...Look at modern air craft most if not all Commercial Jet and others have Flight Management systems that fly far better than any human. They also have auto land. Now Automobiles are becoming self driving (autonomous) cars Google already has a self driving vehicles out there. Maybe man caused auto crashes will become a thing of the past.

If these Traditional R/C flyers weren't so Hypocritical saying they don't like Advanced R/C devices maybe they should go back tissue and dope
the Traditional covering and
27 Mhz and 3 channel radios and give up their NON Traditional computer radios, Electric 3 Phase Motors with Battery systems with High Power and High rates of discharge and go back and Use Pre Nicad batteries. Now That's "Traditional".
Old 12-17-2015, 06:09 PM
  #493  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
Brag all ya want.....just don't dislocate that shoulder.

Anyone who doesn't think something like a quad won't do damage to a turbine blade is either intentionally trying not to know...or just doesn't know. The same with a 10 pound octocopter wtih a 8S 10,000 mAH pack going into a 172's windshield. Forget the big stuff though....I've seen what FOD can do to a little 5 blade EDF fan. I had a piece of wiring get ingested into my 70mm DH Vampire Jet...that fan assembly shot out like the morning after Taco Bell. Sorry init..you started in earlier with the rear end talk. The light gauge wiring was cut in two..the fan blade completely gone. I know Sport is a good dude..and I know he knows better...he's just 'avin a go.
I'll bet that was a scary sound when that fan came apart ..... Ya hear the screeching crunch , ya flinch a bit , and then ya start checking to make sure there are no little pieces of blade shrapnel in your arms . Gets real quiet real quick when an EDF pukes it's fan if the outrunner bell parts company at the same time ...

Originally Posted by HoundDog View Post
INIT.
If It was personal insults U think I meant. I really apologize .... but I can't help if U are so thin skinned that when anyone doesn't agree with your point of view they are attacking U Personally. I can certainly assure U that The only thing I can say about that is It's Utterly STUPID on your Part. I'm sorry but U know what they say about STUPID. Unfortunately it's Just one of the Melodies that can not be "Fixed".
Stupidity I Mean of course.
Dude , really , it's got nothing to do with thin skin and everything to do with being sick and tired of being called stupid , a moron , a puppy kicker , and all the other bull stuff insults you've posted at me about this issue . Your NOT attacking views people hold , your attacking PEOPLE ! and if you can't see the difference I really ain't got much more to say to you . Do me a favor , go back and read ALL your posts here . Now pretend those were all things someone said to YOU , instead of things you've said to myself and others here who don't like your drones . Would the puppy kicker thing still be so funny to you if you were on the receiving end ?
Old 12-17-2015, 07:01 PM
  #494  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
Doubffull, they are now designed to take an 8 pound bird strike and keep on going. But even if not there is more than one engine. Now GA planes is a different matter.
An 8 pound bird is made of flesh and bone, an 8 pound drone has hard plastics, metal motors and Lipo batteries that will burst into an intense hot flame when the case is breached. If you think that a jet engine at takeoff power can ingest one of these, which WILL explode when it hits the first set of blades, and shatter them like glass, and survive, then you have never seen FOD damage.
Old 12-17-2015, 07:57 PM
  #495  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
I'll bet that was a scary sound when that fan came apart ..... Ya hear the screeching crunch , ya flinch a bit , and then ya start checking to make sure there are no little pieces of blade shrapnel in your arms . Gets real quiet real quick when an EDF pukes it's fan if the outrunner bell parts company at the same time ...
It was the second flight, handpainted airframe, sweet looking plane. Just as I rotated it happened, pushed the nose down a bit to avoid the stall...I knew I couldn't hit the retracts as they were nice and scale ie slow. I was up about 10 feet and tried to feather it in...no luck. Crunched the nose and ripped out the gear. I never flew the same after that. The wire that caused the damage was a servo wire..so not that thick. I know a plastic 5 blade fan isn't exactly the blade on a 737...but the principle is the same.

Moral of the story...I was forced to get a new plane.
Old 12-17-2015, 08:26 PM
  #496  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
Brag all ya want.....just don't dislocate that shoulder.

Anyone who doesn't think something like a quad won't do damage to a turbine blade is either intentionally trying not to know...or just doesn't know. The same with a 10 pound octocopter wtih a 8S 10,000 mAH pack going into a 172's windshield. Forget the big stuff though....I've seen what FOD can do to a little 5 blade EDF fan. I had a piece of wiring get ingested into my 70mm DH Vampire Jet...that fan assembly shot out like the morning after Taco Bell. Sorry init..you started in earlier with the rear end talk. The light gauge wiring was cut in two..the fan blade completely gone. I know Sport is a good dude..and I know he knows better...he's just 'avin a go.
Google this:

http://jet engine destruction test

Or this:

http://jet engine test frozen chicken


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m7zRLJEIvw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDrU22R3gg4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWzg8w-0TBI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAc7wab-l4
Old 12-17-2015, 08:30 PM
  #497  
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I work at a full size airport and have seen damage cause by Bird strike, one seen where a small piece of metal came off the front landing gear on a twin, hit the prop tore it up an went thought the side of the fuselage, I think some of these drones flying as high as they do could very well kill, sure our planes could too, but we ain't dumb enough to fly them up so high!
Old 12-17-2015, 08:59 PM
  #498  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
The piece of foam that put a hole in the leading edge of the shuttle Challenger weighed 1.67lbs and impacted the leading edge at a relative velocity between 500fps to 800fps (296kts - 473kts). A PDF copy of the analysis is provided for your convenience.

Airliners routinely exceed these speeds above 10000MSL. They can exceed 250KIAS below 10,000MSL if required for safety of flight. Military aircraft routinely exceed these speeds at altitudes as low as 500' AGL.

A 55lb sUAS impacting a full scale aircraft would result in considerable damage.

[ATTACH]2136258[/IMG]


NASA document: http://history.nasa.gov/columbia/Tro...s/FOAMIM~1.PDF
That was not soft plastic foam but hard ceramic foam and of considerable weight at high speed. Still if the shuttle had aborted right away it probably would have been fine. It was the lack of insulation and heat from reentry melting the structure that did the most damage
Old 12-17-2015, 09:00 PM
  #499  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
You consider a mid-air acceptable? Lol

Astro
With a toy, yes well sort of.
Old 12-17-2015, 09:02 PM
  #500  
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Originally Posted by hairy46 View Post
I work at a full size airport and have seen damage cause by Bird strike, one seen where a small piece of metal came off the front landing gear on a twin, hit the prop tore it up an went thought the side of the fuselage, I think some of these drones flying as high as they do could very well kill, sure our planes could too, but we ain't dumb enough to fly them up so high!
Actually we do fly that high. Aerobatics up to a thousand feet and sailplanes even higher. But we do get out of the way if a low flying plane is anywhere in the sky.

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