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Should AMA fields require pilots to have a FAA number to be permitted to fly?

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Should AMA fields require pilots to have a FAA number to be permitted to fly?

Old 01-06-2016, 02:04 PM
  #76  
mtcarey
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How much does keeping you field mean to you?
Which is cheaper. Getting a $5.00 number or going to Cort to try to beat the FAA ?
Old 01-06-2016, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TimJ View Post
It is a contractual agreement.
Interestingly, the AMA does not view it as such. Rich Hanson has said more than once (and as recently in a direct conversation with a friend of mine) that the FAA Registration guideline page is not bonding. I am not sure I agree with that, but it appears the AMA's official line is that it is not bonding.

Of course, if AMA succeeds in getting the FAA to allow our AMA numbers to suffice for registration then this point will become moot. This is going to be an interesting weekend in Ontario!!
Old 01-06-2016, 02:06 PM
  #78  
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While I don't disagree it will be best to register, that will have nothing to do with keeping or losing a field. At this point at least.
Old 01-06-2016, 02:11 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
Interestingly, the AMA does not view it as such. Rich Hanson has said more than once (and as recently in a direct conversation with a friend of mine) that the FAA Registration guideline page is not bonding. I am not sure I agree with that, but it appears the AMA's official line is that it is not bonding.

Of course, if AMA succeeds in getting the FAA to allow our AMA numbers to suffice for registration then this point will become moot. This is going to be an interesting weekend in Ontario!!
It sure will be! I for one would not take the word of someone with an animus to the process over that of a Federal agency who had a bazillion attorneys write the document. "signing" given the virtual nature of it, and confirming that you have read and understand what you just read is most certainly binding. The question remains whether the who process is appropriate. Given the multiple press releases issues by the AMA from the registration team findings to a day or two, it should be interesting to see how things go with the FAA rep and the AMA folks at the Expo. And then of course there are the AMA members will have a question or two for the EC.
Old 01-06-2016, 02:19 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
It sure will be! I for one would not take the word of someone with an animus to the process over that of a Federal agency who had a bazillion attorneys write the document.
I agree. I'm certain the FAA's got lawyers by the truckload, and if they don't, the DOJ does (who's representing FAA by the way). I don't see the FAA doing what it's doing unless they feel like they're on solid ground.
Old 01-06-2016, 02:29 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
I agree. I'm certain the FAA's got lawyers by the truckload, and if they don't, the DOJ does (who's representing FAA by the way). I don't see the FAA doing what it's doing unless they feel like they're on solid ground.
Every one of these federal agencies have boatloads of young hungry attorneys cutting their teeth, waiting to jump to private practice in DC (Lobbying of course), supervised by the long term attorneys satisfied with their salary, and eventual retirement. While their rules and laws etc may eventually be overturned by one court or another, it's of little concern to them. They are almost always assured that what they do will stick, or it will take a long time to be revised. As for the AMA's posturing post the committee involvement, I wish it would have been more polished, more positive, and more generic in nature. Perhaps they felt the need to pound their chest for the members, but I'm not sure it was or is the best way to go when looking for concessions and/or special considerations for our members. Difficult position to be in.
Old 01-06-2016, 02:42 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
As for the AMA's posturing post the committee involvement, I wish it would have been more polished, more positive, and more generic in nature. Perhaps they felt the need to pound their chest for the members, but I'm not sure it was or is the best way to go when looking for concessions and/or special considerations for our members.
So then FAA/TSA closes fields in DC area. AMA goes to FAA and says "Let's work together to try and reopen them." What do we think the FAA staff is going to do? Help the organization that's telling its members not to comply with our regulation? Remember what I said a while back, "There is no problem that cannot be made worse." AMA is sure doing its best to prove that!

Last edited by franklin_m; 01-06-2016 at 03:46 PM. Reason: added missing "c" in "then FAA/TSA closes..."
Old 01-06-2016, 02:49 PM
  #83  
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of course....with you everything they do is horrible, and wrong, and bad, and a failure. What is it that they can do perfect?
Old 01-06-2016, 03:18 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by mtcarey View Post
how much does keeping you field mean to you?
Which is cheaper. Getting a $5.00 number or going to cort to try to beat the faa ?
free free free free
Old 01-06-2016, 03:36 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
What would the club be protecting itself against? The registration requires a person to register, not an entity. Failure to do so is on the responsible party, ie the pilot. That doesn't transfer to a club.
i really think that your question is extremely relevant to the big point a lot of objectors are voicing. It is not only irresponsible, but also foolish to assume that the FAA, or any Governmental Body would simply "stop its reach" simply because it is "assumed" that all participants are complying. Now, please understand that I'm not calling you foolish, rather, I'm suggesting that given history, precedence, and quite frankly experience...(I happen to work in the field of 'Compliance and Regulation)... It's wrong to expect that big brother will not hold every single "responsible body...i.e...club..., not only liable for infractions, but also for maintaining a compliance protocol. Make no mistake about it...this is only the first of many regulations and requirements to come. I don't hate the government, but damn...thinking that they won't be obstructively "involved", is just plain being BLIND!
I guess we'll just have to see. I'll tell you what, DOT is already talking about the medical qualifications for drone operation too. Any American over the age of 30 knows very well how "helpful" government is, and how they won't hold an innocent "club" liable!
Old 01-06-2016, 03:37 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
Interestingly, the AMA does not view it as such. Rich Hanson has said more than once (and as recently in a direct conversation with a friend of mine) that the FAA Registration guideline page is not bonding. I am not sure I agree with that, but it appears the AMA's official line is that it is not bonding.

Of course, if AMA succeeds in getting the FAA to allow our AMA numbers to suffice for registration then this point will become moot. This is going to be an interesting weekend in Ontario!!
Yes, it certainly will be an interesting weekend at the show.
Old 01-06-2016, 03:45 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
of course....with you everything they do is horrible, and wrong, and bad, and a failure. What is it that they can do perfect?
So what are the successes?
Old 01-06-2016, 03:53 PM
  #88  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
So what are the successes?
Ouch, you got me. Gotta come clean, they have none.

They have always been, and continue to be an utter and complete failure. For 80 years they have continued to fail in every mensurable way, that is what they are known for. When the SFA was pulled from under a rock, the AMA kicked it into overdrive and failed on an even more epic level, and the SFA went away. In fact they should change their name to AFA, the F being for failure.

LoL.
Old 01-06-2016, 04:00 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Tdaffy View Post
i really think that your question is extremely relevant to the big point a lot of objectors are voicing. It is not only irresponsible, but also foolish to assume that the FAA, or any Governmental Body would simply "stop its reach" simply because it is "assumed" that all participants are complying. Now, please understand that I'm not calling you foolish, rather, I'm suggesting that given history, precedence, and quite frankly experience...(I happen to work in the field of 'Compliance and Regulation)... It's wrong to expect that big brother will not hold every single "responsible body...i.e...club..., not only liable for infractions, but also for maintaining a compliance protocol. Make no mistake about it...this is only the first of many regulations and requirements to come. I don't hate the government, but damn...thinking that they won't be obstructively "involved", is just plain being BLIND!
I guess we'll just have to see. I'll tell you what, DOT is already talking about the medical qualifications for drone operation too. Any American over the age of 30 knows very well how "helpful" government is, and how they won't hold an innocent "club" liable!
Listen, you and only can call me foolish for today, but it ends at 12:00 a.m.

I hear what you saying, but I'll disagree. This feels like more doom and gloom on what might happen, when there is nothing to indicate that it will. I know it's popular to forecast the worst, but I just don't see the feds becoming that involved in this hobby. They have bigger fish to fry, and those they do catch should pay an appropriate price for whatever they do. This is a bigger issue than our hobby flying planes, and I have no problem with different government agencies getting involved if it has to do with safety. This issue most certainly involves safety, ie the thought of thousands of aircraft flying around in the airspace with no checks or balances. That our hobby got caught up in this mess is informational, but I don't see the end of the hobby on the horizon, or big brother sitting at our field checking reg numbers.

The future holds many possibilities, I choose to wait to see what they are and deal with them accordingly. Worrying about what might happen seems like wasted energy. That's just me.
Old 01-06-2016, 04:13 PM
  #90  
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Porcia83-

It would be very helpful if you would clearly state exactly what, in your opinion, are AMA's greatest accomplishments. Particularly those victories within the past 25 years or so. Sarcasm is rarely helpful.
Old 01-06-2016, 04:21 PM
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I agree on a lot of your point Porcia. In most threads lol. I hope you're right. I really don't want my concerns to be proven true. It is a lot of gloom. Not doom!!
It's going to take a lot more than some registration and document filing to stop me from enjoying the hobby. I think my issue is on the principal of the whole thing. If they could dedicate the money and resources, with their efforts, into addressing those incidints which have led to this point, (which I don't think have been THAT significant in occurrence, except to make a doorway for them to finally push open), instead of adding obligations onto us, then it would be a matter we could all support instead of being forced.
Look....what makes the FAA think that the bozo who flys his drone over my daughters sunbathing area, or on private property, or in a fire zone is suddenly going to stop, or change their behavior, just because...well, the FAA said so. Or, if he does, why...they're gonna get him because they'll be able to see his id number. Which, of course, he will be immediately registering for, if he has t already!
They know as well as we do that this isn't going to stop anything. It's not. The only thing it will change is their revenue abilities, and the obligatory oversight that the citizens want for it. We are all still going to fly like we always have. We will all continue to abide by the rules and enjoy it reonsponsibly. Who at your club or field is going to be changed because of these new rules? But, surely the guy in the back lot of Walmart...well, we will never have that problem anymore right? It's not possible! The FAA says you can't fly that drone without a registration. It's not legal! Stop, or I'll call the FAA!!
Im being sarcastic and having fun. I don't know what the answer is. Only opinion.
Old 01-06-2016, 04:31 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Tdaffy View Post
I agree on a lot of your point Porcia. In most threads lol. I hope you're right. I really don't want my concerns to be proven true. It is a lot of gloom. Not doom!!
It's going to take a lot more than some registration and document filing to stop me from enjoying the hobby. I think my issue is on the principal of the whole thing. If they could dedicate the money and resources, with their efforts, into addressing those incidints which have led to this point, (which I don't think have been THAT significant in occurrence, except to make a doorway for them to finally push open), instead of adding obligations onto us, then it would be a matter we could all support instead of being forced.
Look....what makes the FAA think that the bozo who flys his drone over my daughters sunbathing area, or on private property, or in a fire zone is suddenly going to stop, or change their behavior, just because...well, the FAA said so. Or, if he does, why...they're gonna get him because they'll be able to see his id number. Which, of course, he will be immediately registering for, if he has t already!
They know as well as we do that this isn't going to stop anything. It's not. The only thing it will change is their revenue abilities, and the obligatory oversight that the citizens want for it. We are all still going to fly like we always have. We will all continue to abide by the rules and enjoy it reonsponsibly. Who at your club or field is going to be changed because of these new rules? But, surely the guy in the back lot of Walmart...well, we will never have that problem anymore right? It's not possible! The FAA says you can't fly that drone without a registration. It's not legal! Stop, or I'll call the FAA!!
Im being sarcastic and having fun. I don't know what the answer is. Only opinion.
All everyone has here is opinions...and some of them might even be right! LOL. I hope for the best as well. I also believe that this ultimately has more to do with the FAA genuine concern about the national airpace. Although I like to think the AMA and us play a role in helping to educate responsbile fliers, I think this goes waaay beyond that, and we aren't even in the big picture. That means we got shafted some I know, but I believe they are looking at 5-10 years down the road. When Amazon and Walmart and Google have "perfected" their commercial drones and are ready to to launch them into the skies so we can get our Amazon Prime packages in a matter of hours instead of days. Now here is my doom and gloom...I don't trust any for profit company with shareholders to please to NOT cut corners when it would mean more money for them, and more investors. I can name 10 companies off the top of my head who have put profits before safety all in the name of money, not our safety. I think (perhaps hope) that the feds took a huge broad brush first step here, and once the dust settles a bit the AMA is able to have some exceptions carved out for us. I'm also realistic enough to know that will be hard for many reasons, one of which is that other similar groups will then start asking for exceptions as well. A slippery drone filled slope!
Old 01-06-2016, 05:19 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by 049flyer View Post
Porcia83-

It would be very helpful if you would clearly state exactly what, in your opinion, are AMA's greatest accomplishments. Particularly those victories within the past 25 years or so. Sarcasm is rarely helpful.
An interesting approach here. Don't ask the guy who presumes the AMA has been a complete failure to validate that position, rather ask me to note the AMA"s accomplishments, and then one up that with "victories" as well, but just going back 25 years.

The fact is I could list 50 great things they have done in the past 5 years and everyone of them would be shot down, so as non sarcastically as I can say, why bother? I know the first response to that will be see, you can't name one, but really........that will just be deflecting.

The fact that they have been around 80 years, and are still going strong, without anything even remotely similar to challenge them is the only example I need to give. Nobody does what they do, as well as they do. Only one group that I recall tried, and failed miserably (more than once too). Yes, the next argument will be they are a monopoly...and yup, they are. There's a reason for that though right? Nobody can do what they do, nobody. I'm not saying this in a horn tooting way, it's just fact, as they are the only game in town. And people are happy and accept that. I've said repeatedly if there was ever a time where there is more anger and division within this group it's probably now. And yet I haven't seen nor heard of anyone looking into forming their own group like the AMA. Actually, I take that back. There is a group that is slowly but surely gaining membership, using social medial to coordinate and build a coalition, and even get paperwork ready to file as a nonprofit organization, sorta like a CBO perhaps. I'll give you hint, it's not a group of fixed wing guys...

If you fly on public land, you might want to start thinking about how to deal with this group when they approach you about sharing field space. Or better yet, go right to the towns/cities that own the land and petition for rights to fly.
Old 01-06-2016, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
An interesting approach here. Don't ask the guy who presumes the AMA has been a complete failure to validate that position, rather ask me to note the AMA"s accomplishments, and then one up that with "victories" as well, but just going back 25 years.

The fact is I could list 50 great things they have done in the past 5 years and everyone of them would be shot down, so as non sarcastically as I can say, why bother? I know the first response to that will be see, you can't name one, but really........that will just be deflecting.

The fact that they have been around 80 years, and are still going strong, without anything even remotely similar to challenge them is the only example I need to give. Nobody does what they do, as well as they do. Only one group that I recall tried, and failed miserably (more than once too). Yes, the next argument will be they are a monopoly...and yup, they are. There's a reason for that though right? Nobody can do what they do, nobody. I'm not saying this in a horn tooting way, it's just fact, as they are the only game in town. And people are happy and accept that. I've said repeatedly if there was ever a time where there is more anger and division within this group it's probably now. And yet I haven't seen nor heard of anyone looking into forming their own group like the AMA. Actually, I take that back. There is a group that is slowly but surely gaining membership, using social medial to coordinate and build a coalition, and even get paperwork ready to file as a nonprofit organization, sorta like a CBO perhaps. I'll give you hint, it's not a group of fixed wing guys...

If you fly on public land, you might want to start thinking about how to deal with this group when they approach you about sharing field space. Or better yet, go right to the towns/cities that own the land and petition for rights to fly.
Porcia-

No offense intended from me. I only thought it might be helpful to enumerate some AMA successes in order to see that some good does come from Muncie. The average sport flyer sees very little benefit from AMA membership outside of a magazine subscription and a membership card that grants admission to the local club field.

I remember a similar membership uproar when we changed over from wide band radios to narrow band radios in the 1980's. Many of the same arguments we hear now were voiced then. 30 years later it seems to have worked out pretty well. The difference this time is the FAA involvement.

I profoundly hope the current problem works out as well.
Old 01-06-2016, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
Ouch, you got me. Gotta come clean, they have none.

They have always been, and continue to be an utter and complete failure. For 80 years they have continued to fail in every mensurable way, that is what they are known for. When the SFA was pulled from under a rock, the AMA kicked it into overdrive and failed on an even more epic level, and the SFA went away.
Honestly, I'm drawing a blank on SFA.

As for the rest, there's plenty of organizations that are successful...until they're not. Unfortunately, it's usually as a result of fundamental misreading of business environment, strategic miscalculation, etc. Also, it's sometimes not being able to work at the next level, play with the big boys, however you want to characterize it. Just because you can run the corner convenience store doesn't mean you can run Walmart. Ultimately though, past success does not in an way guarantee future success...especially in a world that's changing fast.
Old 01-06-2016, 06:01 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by 049flyer View Post
Porcia-

No offense intended from me. I only thought it might be helpful to enumerate some AMA successes in order to see that some good does come from Muncie. The average sport flyer sees very little benefit from AMA membership outside of a magazine subscription and a membership card that grants admission to the local club field.

I remember a similar membership uproar when we changed over from wide band radios to narrow band radios in the 1980's. Many of the same arguments we hear now were voiced then. 30 years later it seems to have worked out pretty well. The difference this time is the FAA involvement.

I profoundly hope the current problem works out as well.
No offense taken, as I know none was given, I just thought it was interesting.

The card does get one admission to the local fields, and beyond in some cases. It's always cook to go to another club in a state and flash that card, most of the times it works.
The Mag is a plus too, although many here don't seem to like it. I do, I keep 'em around for a while. One thing you didn't mention that most do is the insurance coverage, yes it's excess over a h/o policy but it's excellent coverage for the price. I think many folks miss all the other benefits of the membership as they don't use them. AMA is an excellent recourse for all kinds of educational programs and information. They provide scholarships, grants for new sites (16 last year), grants for upgrades to existing sites, money for clubs who get their events in local media, and also sanctioning awards for events. My club will be working with an AMA program to partner with Civil Air Patrol Cadets and get them up and in the air with RC. There really is a whole ton of stuff that members don't avail themselves of, sometimes it just means a little digging around on the website. Leader members in the clubs, as well as local AVPs, and even your disctrict VPs should be talking about these programs and more when they attend meetings or events as well. I realize they are not a perfect organization and need to look for ways to refine what they do and continue to serve the membership as well. It can't be an easy time to be in the EC, that's for sure. They are going to be earning their salaries this week at the expo in CA.
Old 01-06-2016, 06:02 PM
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My local flying field jumped on the band wagon the day it was announced ...
lame IMO
Old 01-06-2016, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
Honestly, I'm drawing a blank on SFA.

As for the rest, there's plenty of organizations that are successful...until they're not. Unfortunately, it's usually as a result of fundamental misreading of business environment, strategic miscalculation, etc. Also, it's sometimes not being able to work at the next level, play with the big boys, however you want to characterize it. Just because you can run the corner convenience store doesn't mean you can run Walmart. Ultimately though, past success does not in an way guarantee future success...especially in a world that's changing fast.
I'll dig up a link and shoot it to you via PM. Pretty similar to the last one I sent you...ohh boy!
Old 01-06-2016, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by srt10 View Post
My local flying field jumped on the band wagon the day it was announced ...
lame IMO
Like how, requiring you to be registered before flying? If so, was that in the bylaws are just a supreme commander edict! If so...ya, very lame. They are jumping the gun and creating more work for the club secretary.
Old 01-06-2016, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rgburrill View Post
I would hope that the clubs would not succomb to the pettiness of many of the people on these boards, or the selfishness of the group who started this mess in the first place. recognize that the purpose of registration is to make our NAS a safer place. And for those without the mental accuity to understand how it makes the NAS safer... maybe I shouldn't say what I want to.
I will play along since my mental acuity is obviously challenged. How exactly does the FAA registration make the NAS safer when 9.9 times out of 10 the people in the "selfish group" are not going to register to begin with? So the NAS is going to be safer because the law abiding, safe pilot registered? I'm honestly not following the logic.

I cannot register anyway as I won't agree to something I cannot comply with. #'s 1, 2 and 8 on the registration are no go's for me. It's actually quite fun to rip around small, fast foamies on a nice summer night with a good buzz on! On private land of course.

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