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Old 01-07-2020, 11:26 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post



There are techniques that greatly help when flying off grass. Most of what I fly is my pattern airplane that weighs 11.5lbs and has 2.25" wheels. The combination of the airplane weight and small wheels is about the worse combination for grass. The technique is pretty simple, just hold up elevator and ease into the power. Keeping the wing at a positive AOA during the take off run will lighten the load on the wheels faster. As you gain speed you can ease off the elevator some and when the airplane has flying speed it will leave the ground. The trick is to not have too much elevator input at lift off and create a stall.
We would love to have that kind of apparently thin sideways growing grass. What we're stuck with is a Fescue breed and it's thick and bushy like a paint brush, even when mowed to one inch. And the stuff grows like a weed in the spring and as long as we have average rainfall. We lease the land so it's cost prohibited to dig it all up and start over. And yes I understand the technique all too well, been flying off grass for 50 years. Personally I prefer it for shorter roll outs.
Old 01-07-2020, 02:24 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by mongo View Post
and yes, i am an AMA member larry.
since 1963.
leader member admin
leader member scientific
contest director
i do not know if Franklin re upped for 2020 or not, but i did.
Myself also Mongo , I've been around long enough to have a 5 digit AMA number , got it in the 1970s , and I've belonged to an AMA chartered club for years .

Gee , I guess I'm not another of those unwashed masses that give poor ol Larry nightmares , but God help me if I decide to fly one at my local park* , right Larry ?

* Which at present does allow RC parkflyers

Now back to Warningshot's original question , has anyone heard or seen of any AMA activity to protect the AMA member who is not a member of any local flying club ? For those who wail and gnash their teeth that such questions are an "attack" on the AMA (Dennis , Larry , etc) , nice try at deflecting Warningshot's question , but sorry , deflection failed , no one's attacking anyone here , just looking to see if the AMA plans to make ALL AMA members a priority in the FAA negotiations or will only a certain segment of the AMA population , the club flying AMA member , be represented ?
Old 01-07-2020, 03:42 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Myself also Mongo , I've been around long enough to have a 5 digit AMA number , got it in the 1970s , and I've belonged to an AMA chartered club for years .

Gee , I guess I'm not another of those unwashed masses that give poor ol Larry nightmares , but God help me if I decide to fly one at my local park* , right Larry ?

* Which at present does allow RC parkflyers

Now back to Warningshot's original question , has anyone heard or seen of any AMA activity to protect the AMA member who is not a member of any local flying club ? For those who wail and gnash their teeth that such questions are an "attack" on the AMA (Dennis , Larry , etc) , nice try at deflecting Warningshot's question , but sorry , deflection failed , no one's attacking anyone here , just looking to see if the AMA plans to make ALL AMA members a priority in the FAA negotiations or will only a certain segment of the AMA population , the club flying AMA member , be represented ?
AMA has $60 million reasons to throw AMA non-club flyers under the bus. If they do, it’s their only hope to drive the 800,000 non-AMA members (per FAA data) to fly only at FRIAs.

$75 a year, times 800,000 = $60 million for AMA. That’s why AMA will throw anyone under the bus to keep FRIA as only option for non-equipped sUAS.
Old 01-07-2020, 04:00 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Does anyone else find it pretentious and offensive how Speedy resorts to giving takeoff lessons to a handful of highly skilled and experienced modelers, in an AMA forum, to try and discredit a fellow member with whom he doesn’t agree on a completely unrelated subject?

That is a practice that I would like to see banned on this site, as it just doesn’t lend to having beneficial discussions on what are usually already controversial topics.

Regards,

Astro

And just what did this post accomplish other then a lame attempt to insult me for offering some assistance to some fellow modelers including those who read these forums but not reply to them. Isn't helping others part of the hobby? Granted the grass operations is somewhat off topic but was brought here by the Commander when he explained that he is unable to operate off of the same grass runway as a fragile, large 3D airplane. So one thread you criticize someone for giving a poor behaving club member the boot and then in this thread criticize me for offering some helpful hints. Are you ever aware of which end you are taking out of? I will from now on remember that you are " Highly Skilled " and thus incapable of learing from anyone else.
Old 01-07-2020, 04:12 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Myself also Mongo , I've been around long enough to have a 5 digit AMA number , got it in the 1970s , and I've belonged to an AMA chartered club for years .

Gee , I guess I'm not another of those unwashed masses that give poor ol Larry nightmares , but God help me if I decide to fly one at my local park* , right Larry ?

* Which at present does allow RC parkflyers

Now back to Warningshot's original question , has anyone heard or seen of any AMA activity to protect the AMA member who is not a member of any local flying club ? For those who wail and gnash their teeth that such questions are an "attack" on the AMA (Dennis , Larry , etc) , nice try at deflecting Warningshot's question , but sorry , deflection failed , no one's attacking anyone here , just looking to see if the AMA plans to make ALL AMA members a priority in the FAA negotiations or will only a certain segment of the AMA population , the club flying AMA member , be represented ?


AMA has expressed concerns regarding the FRIA proposals. Some events such as soaring and cross country soaring do not always take place at AMA club sites. Float flying events are usually not at club sites. There have been for several years now been efforts made to have a pattern Nationals on the West Coast. Should that happen it too would most likely not happen at a club site. From my understanding this is the avenue in which they are using in an attempt to get all flying sites regardless if they are Chartered club site or not under the same FRIA status. I have been told that it was the FAA that came up with the FRIA site needing to be CBO. There are also two new CBO's on the horizon. Most already know about PMA but now Flite Test is now claiming CBO status as well.
Old 01-07-2020, 04:16 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
...!is somewhat off topic but was brought here by the Commander when he explained that he is unable to operate off of the same grass runway as a fragile, large 3D airplane.
I never said the issue was fragility. You assumed that. The issue is physical size vs the size of the divots, clumps of grass. Prop arc proximity to the ground, and wheel size vs gra
Old 01-07-2020, 04:47 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
I never said the issue was fragility. You assumed that. The issue is physical size vs the size of the divots, clumps of grass. Prop arc proximity to the ground, and wheel size vs gra

Read back everything I said, not once did I claim that it was your airplane that was fragile. What I am pointing out is the fact that the divots, clumps of grass etc. was an issue for your airplane but not the lightly built, fragile airplane that was able to cope with the runway. It's not my fault if you are unable to understand the connection.
Old 01-07-2020, 05:13 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Read back everything I said, not once did I claim that it was your airplane that was fragile. What I am pointing out is the fact that the divots, clumps of grass etc. was an issue for your airplane but not the lightly built, fragile airplane that was able to cope with the runway. It's not my fault if you are unable to understand the connection.
So I comment about rough grass field and difficulty with types of planes I want to fly.

You respond that large “fragile” ED plane obviously able to handle it.

Why link what large plane could handle or not in your post unless the intent was to disparage what another AMA flyer likes to fly? Oh that’s right. If you’re not a large plane flyer, you don’t count. That elitism!
Old 01-07-2020, 05:25 PM
  #59  
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More Franklin BS......it has nothing to do with the size of your airplane. It has to do with my not taking your comments about your local club field at face value. If you knew more about the hobby, you would realize that a rough grass field is just a problematic for a 30cc size 3D airplane as it is for whatever it is you fly. Size has NOTHING to do with it. Please stop blaming your self imposed inadequacies on other people.
Old 01-07-2020, 05:34 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
More Franklin BS......it has nothing to do with the size of your airplane. It has to do with my not taking your comments about your local club field at face value. If you knew more about the hobby, you would realize that a rough grass field is just a problematic for a 30cc size 3D airplane as it is for whatever it is you fly. Size has NOTHING to do with it. Please stop blaming your self imposed inadequacies on other people.
I never said it wasn’t a problem for the 30cc. You injected that into the discussion. Why? Perhaps that elitism of “Well important ‘true’ hobbyists like us have problems too.” And of course I should be a member despite the limited value - again that because what “true believers” they everyone should do.

However, what I actually said was that it a problem for the size of planes I want to fly and enjoy flying. Nothing more. And it’s not worth $100 a year to me. That’s it.
Old 01-07-2020, 06:03 PM
  #61  
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LOL, your avitar is a picture of you on an aircraft carrier on a HOBBY forum. Your tag line mentions the elitist comment " if carrier landings aren't for you..........." you have been quoted saying things like " I offered AMA my help but they are too incompetent to accept it " or " they can't afford me " and many more I could find if I wanted to devote the time. Yet you call me elitist? I sure hope you looked pretty in your blue dress when you fell down that rabbit hole.
Old 01-07-2020, 08:48 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
Made ten PCS moves in my career. Drove within 50 miles on 9 of them. Never even considered stopping.

(1) NOTHING there interesting enough to justify side trip except for people that eat live and breathe toy planes.

(2) I care about the history of a lot of things. Oooo. A 50’s era model. Yeah right. If I’m going to go go see something in Indiana, the entire family likes auto racing. And 500 is nearby.

And above says nothing about my enjoy and participation in the hobby. It’s entirely possible to participate and not give a rat’s behind about a very narrow focus museum off the beaten path.
And interestingly enough my post did not make a single reference to the museum. But thanks for sharing your perspective on it.
Old 01-07-2020, 09:02 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
And just what did this post accomplish other then a lame attempt to insult me
LOL. What is insulting is you responding with your BS that you were trying to help Franklin. Do you really think that you are fooling anyone with your pretentious BS?
Originally Posted by Speedy
Isn't helping others part of the hobby?
there is an appropriate forum for that, and this isn’t it.
Old 01-08-2020, 12:19 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
LOL. What is insulting is you responding with your BS that you were trying to help Franklin. Do you really think that you are fooling anyone with your pretentious BS?
there is an appropriate forum for that, and this isn’t it.
Speedy is pretentious because he flies big TOY planes, and think that gives him some right to not only define for all of us what is and isn’t acceptable if we “truly” support the hobby.

It was exactly as you said, an clumsy attempt to link my rough field comments with what speedy defines as a “fragile” plane that could handle it. If it wasn’t an attempt to disparage me, he would have had no reason to comment about the large plane.

Now he switches to a personal attack. Talks about “looking pretty” to someone who wore the cloth of his nation for 22 years. Someone who flew REAL planes, off ships, at night, and in combat. It demonstrates what happens to people who dare to call out the elitism among some AMA true believers. The same individual who will level personal attacks against me here will report me on another site for the heinous crime of off topic posts!

By virtue of his true belief in AMA, it’s clear that Speedy feels he’s entitled to make personal attacks on people he got banned for off topic posts elsewhere. Proof positive of elitism: one set of rules for him and another set of rules for everyone else.

Last edited by franklin_m; 01-08-2020 at 12:29 AM.
Old 01-08-2020, 12:33 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
LOL, your avitar is a picture of you on an aircraft carrier on a HOBBY forum. Your tag line mentions the elitist comment " if carrier landings aren't for you..........." you have been quoted saying things like " I offered AMA my help but they are too incompetent to accept it " or " they can't afford me " and many more I could find if I wanted to devote the time. Yet you call me elitist? I sure hope you looked pretty in your blue dress when you fell down that rabbit hole.
On another site you got all upset at a misquote. You did that despite me quoting the exact words you said and even provided a link so others could read context of the quote.

One of the above doesn’t even get the words right.

Elitism. One set of rules for you, one for the rest of us “unwashed masses” who are not AMA true believers.
Old 01-08-2020, 06:21 AM
  #66  
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Old 01-08-2020, 06:43 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by warningshot View Post
What, if anything, is the AMA doing to help the AMA non-club members to be able to keep flying under the new FAA rules that are on the way? I contacted AMA but they have not returned my phone call.

I fail to see where any of this addresses the question in Warningshot's opening post (handily quoted above in case anyone is interested in discussing the actual thread topic)

Franklin did touch on a fear of mine that normally should be an unfounded one , but with the whole "AMA as the only CBO / with a side of FAA forced CBO membership" deal the AMA tried to push in the recent past I gotta admit my Spidey senses are piqued . I for one would certainly like to see evidence of some kind of effort to protect all AMA members , whether they fly at a club or not !
Old 01-08-2020, 06:51 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
AMA has $60 million reasons to throw AMA non-club flyers under the bus. If they do, it’s their only hope to drive the 800,000 non-AMA members (per FAA data) to fly only at FRIAs.

$75 a year, times 800,000 = $60 million for AMA. That’s why AMA will throw anyone under the bus to keep FRIA as only option for non-equipped sUAS.
Specifically , this is the post of Franklin's that illustrates the underlying fear of yet another attempted power grab of a defacto forced club membership requirement . No public flying sites for AMA members means that ALL AMA members are now bound to an AMA sanctioned club , where I live there are actually several parks/open spaces that allow various forms of RC flying and I'd rather not be confined to my club field only !

Anyone care to discuss the loss of such flying fields if the AMA only advocates for it's own sanctioned club fields , or are the AMA members who like to fly at various legal* public fields an acceptable casualty in these FAA negotiations ?

* legal for now , pending future actions based on the FAA's final ruling
Old 01-08-2020, 10:21 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
AMA has $60 million reasons to throw AMA non-club flyers under the bus. If they do, it’s their only hope to drive the 800,000 non-AMA members (per FAA data) to fly only at FRIAs.
$75 a year, times 800,000 = $60 million for AMA. That’s why AMA will throw anyone under the bus to keep FRIA as only option for non-equipped sUAS.
Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Specifically , this is the post of Franklin's that illustrates the underlying fear of yet another attempted power grab of a defacto forced club membership requirement . No public flying sites for AMA members means that ALL AMA members are now bound to an AMA sanctioned club , where I live there are actually several parks/open spaces that allow various forms of RC flying and I'd rather not be confined to my club field only !

Anyone care to discuss the loss of such flying fields if the AMA only advocates for it's own sanctioned club fields , or are the AMA members who like to fly at various legal* public fields an acceptable casualty in these FAA negotiations ?

* legal for now , pending future actions based on the FAA's final ruling
That is a good question. I know there is a gliding club that routinely flies at Fort Casey Historical State Park on Whidbey Island in Washington State. How is Fort Casey going to become a FRIA site if it's not a true flying field? Worse yet, how will the AMA be able to designate Fort Casey as a flying site when it's owned and operated by the Washington State Park's Department? Another site that has a similar problem is Redmond Washington's Marymoor Park. It has a public flying field located on the park grounds so how can that site, like Fort Casey, become a FRIA site or one that requires AMA membership to be used?

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 01-08-2020 at 10:36 AM.
Old 01-08-2020, 01:40 PM
  #70  
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First, I do not see how the FRIA thing will survive a court challenge for it “conditions a privilege in PUBLIC airspace on membership in one or more PRIVATE dues collecting organizations.”

Second, FAAs rule did not consider the $75 annual membership and additional local club membership annual costs in their financial impact analysis.

Third, I cannot see how a fixed site can define its airspace as anything but the lateral limits of land they own or lease for exclusive use. To allow otherwise (larger lateral limits) would be a “take” of airspace for exclusive use.

Fourth, as using an FRIA is conditioned on membership in a PRIVATE dues collecting organization, what due process rights under FARs if the CBO or club refuses to let someone join or fly?

Fifth. What about fixed sites that are closed to specific types of sUAS?

All of these show there’s a number of serious policy problems with the rule and a likely constitutional one as well (forced membership). Having that part of the rule thrown out would be major impact on FAAs ability to comprehensively integrate sUAS.

Old 01-11-2020, 06:41 AM
  #71  
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"First, I do not see how the FRIA thing will survive a court challenge for it conditions a privilege in PUBLIC airspace on membership in one or more PRIVATE dues collecting organizations.”

Please cite NPRM language supporting this contention. While only a CBO can request a FRIA, ANYONE "following the safety programming of a CBO" can legally use it.

"Second, FAAs rule did not consider the $75 annual membership and additional local club membership annual costs in their financial impact analysis. "

The FAA might quite reasonably assume that CBO members requesting establishment of a FRIA were -- wait for it -- ALREADY paying dues! So there is no additional cost.

"Third, I cannot see how a fixed site can define its airspace as anything but the lateral limits of land they own or lease for exclusive use. To allow otherwise (larger lateral limits) would be a “take” of airspace for exclusive use."

FRIAs are zones in the airspace, not real estate. The FAA and predecessor organizations have had the power to regulate airspace use since the 1920's. The airspace was "taken" long ago.

"Fourth, as using an FRIA is conditioned on membership in a PRIVATE dues collecting organization, what due process rights under FARs if the CBO or club refuses to let someone join or fly?"

Irrelevant, see first point.

"Fifth. What about fixed sites that are closed to specific types of sUAS?"

What about them? Does that justify banning all the others? Does everyone have to be miserable because a few people are miserable?

Instead of filing your lawsuit, why don't you redirect your efforts toward establishing a new CBO? The trouble and expense will probably be comparable, and you'd be doing something constructive.
Old 01-11-2020, 08:09 AM
  #72  
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Hmm , which ghost are we being graced with the presence of this week , Porcia ? Crispy Bacon ? , this new guy's posts sure seem familiar to me ....
Old 01-11-2020, 08:10 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by grognard View Post
"First, I do not see how the FRIA thing will survive a court challenge for it conditions a privilege in PUBLIC airspace on membership in one or more PRIVATE dues collecting organizations.”

Please cite NPRM language supporting this contention. While only a CBO can request a FRIA, ANYONE "following the safety programming of a CBO" can legally use it.
I disagree. I think the "programming" language requires membership. If for no other reason that AMA's code says "As a MEMBER of AMA...."

Originally Posted by grognard View Post
"Second, FAAs rule did not consider the $75 annual membership and additional local club membership annual costs in their financial impact analysis. "

The FAA might quite reasonably assume that CBO members requesting establishment of a FRIA were -- wait for it -- ALREADY paying dues! So there is no additional cost.
The 800,000 non-members are not paying dues, and use of the FRIAs would involve significant additional cost in dues. Raising above, and raising it as a cost, may well get the FRIA concept better defined.

Originally Posted by grognard View Post
"Third, I cannot see how a fixed site can define its airspace as anything but the lateral limits of land they own or lease for exclusive use. To allow otherwise (larger lateral limits) would be a “take” of airspace for exclusive use."

FRIAs are zones in the airspace, not real estate. The FAA and predecessor organizations have had the power to regulate airspace use since the 1920's. The airspace was "taken" long ago.
The rule is ambiguous as written, as nothing explicitly limits the boundaries of the FRIAs to only the land they own or lease. Hopefully comments will result in better definition.

Originally Posted by grognard View Post
"Fourth, as using an FRIA is conditioned on membership in a PRIVATE dues collecting organization, what due process rights under FARs if the CBO or club refuses to let someone join or fly?"

Irrelevant, see first point.
I disagree. I think the "programming" language requires membership. If for no other reason that AMA's code says "As a MEMBER of AMA...."

Originally Posted by grognard View Post
"Fifth. What about fixed sites that are closed to specific types of sUAS?"

What about them? Does that justify banning all the others? Does everyone have to be miserable because a few people are miserable?
The concept is called equal protection under the law. This is not addressed in the rule and I believe it should be.

Originally Posted by grognard View Post
Instead of filing your lawsuit, why don't you redirect your efforts toward establishing a new CBO? The trouble and expense will probably be comparable, and you'd be doing something constructive.
I believe a specific and unambiguous rule that opens FRIAs to ALL citizens, not just members of private dues collecting organizations, is something constructive.
Old 01-11-2020, 08:11 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Hmm , which ghost are we being graced with the presence of this week , Porcia ? Crispy Bacon ? , this new guy's posts sure seem familiar to me ....
Agreed!

New account - check
No location - check
Comments directed ONLY at anything not supportive of AMA's FRIA effort - check

It's either one of the above, or AMA headquarters directly.
Old 01-11-2020, 08:59 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Hmm , which ghost are we being graced with the presence of this week , Porcia ? Crispy Bacon ? , this new guy's posts sure seem familiar to me ....
Nope, I've never belonged to this forum under another name. Doubters are welcome to check with the moderators.

And no, I'm not an AMA employee, nor an officer or spokesman for a club.

Last edited by RCUer75345; 01-11-2020 at 07:26 PM.

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