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DoJ Issues Guidance for Counter Drone in US

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DoJ Issues Guidance for Counter Drone in US

Old 04-29-2020, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie


Echo, I can see how you were mistaken for Franklin on the other site.
We'll talk about that in 2026. I said in 2014 drones (FPV) were going to end the hobby. I took a lot of flack for
saying it then. It's finally here. What I outlined about AMA and rejected FRIAs is just as obvious, to me anyway.

*What do you suggest AMA should do with those empty flying fields?

Last edited by ECHO24; 04-29-2020 at 06:31 PM.
Old 04-29-2020, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
So when I log onto the AMA site every January to renew my membership I am begging?
Nope, you don't have to since they already have you hooked as one of their "sugar daddies". How much do you think you've paid them so far, over the years you've been a member? Anyway, since I'm a known outspoken non-supporter of the policies and management of the AMA, I'd have to beg and probably offer my first born kid( kind of hard since I don't have any and won't at this point) just to get them to look at an application
Old 04-29-2020, 07:09 PM
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So figure an average of $50 a year for 40 years ( it was $28 when I began paying for my own membership ) brings me to about 2 grand. During that time I estimate flying in approximately 500 events which includes multiple demo flights at trade shows and fly ins ( a requirement of employment at one time).


So lets look at a much larger picture here shall we? Let's look at how much money I have made as a direct result from flying R/C. I seriously doubt that I would have continued the hobby had it not been for competitive events and I certainly would not have gotten certain jobs had it not been for my reputation earned through my competing. So let's take a look shall we? I apologize for not having pretty graphs like other people do.


6 years flying an R/C blimp for the San Jose Sharks @ $125 per night. Average 40-50 home games per season plus season tickets each year.

7 years flying an R/C blimp for the Golden State Warriors @ $225 per night. Average 40-45 home games per season.

June-November 2000, Flying R/C blimp while on tour with the Dixie Chicks. $2,000 per week plus $345 per week per diem.


As you can see, I paid more in taxes on the money I made from R/C then I ever gave to the AMA in membership fees.


So now let's go one more layer here. How much would I have had to pay in greens fees to be an active golfer in the same 40 years? How about 40 years of fishing licenses? How much in 40 years of being a NAMBA member?

2K invested for 40 years of entertainment value is a great bargain IMO, add in that I still have friends that I met 30-40 years ago at my AMA chartered club field. Yes, I understand that my experiences are different from yours. That it obviously why we have different views.


Oh BTW, there is no application per say. Log on fill out the information, pay the $75 and within an hour you can verify your membership status. Hell I will even reimburse you the $75.

Last edited by speedracerntrixie; 04-29-2020 at 07:13 PM.
Old 04-30-2020, 04:36 AM
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Dixie Chicks eh?

I've done blimp flying for the local hockey team. I was working at the office and the GM saw some heli's in my Jeep, said "son I have the perfect job for you" LOL
Old 04-30-2020, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Let's look at how much money I have made as a direct result from flying R/C ...

6 years flying an R/C blimp for the San Jose Sharks @ $125 per night. Average 40-50 home games per season plus season tickets each year.
7 years flying an R/C blimp for the Golden State Warriors @ $225 per night. Average 40-45 home games per season.
June-November 2000, Flying R/C blimp while on tour with the Dixie Chicks. $2,000 per week plus $345 per week per diem.
Operating an "aircraft" in the US for compensation?
Old 04-30-2020, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
I've done blimp flying for the local hockey team.
Operating an "aircraft" in the US for compensation?
Old 04-30-2020, 09:19 AM
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the years i flew the blimp for the Odessa Jackalopes, i did it for the fun of indoor flying, no compensation.
average winds here in my part of the world preclude lighter than air craft outdoors about 98% of the time.
Old 04-30-2020, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Operating an "aircraft" in the US for compensation?
Indoor and as part of my duties for the team.

Old 04-30-2020, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
Indoor and as part of my duties for the team.
Please point to the FARs where it says indoor is exempt...
Old 04-30-2020, 11:31 AM
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FAA doesn't have jurisdiction over indoor, you of all people should know that.
Old 04-30-2020, 12:13 PM
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And before you start about an EC member flaunting the law, this was 20 years ago before the FAA gave us more than a passing glance and I was doing it under the insurance of a team employee, not recreational AMA

And as I said before, FAA doesn't regulate indoor flying.
Old 04-30-2020, 12:40 PM
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Nothing to do with FAA. https://www.niagaracounty.com/parks/Golf-Course
When I ran my flight school, all local club members where on my case non stop for "charging" for flight instruction. I was teaching on a county owned flying field and there was nothing they could do about it, except warn beginners not to come to me. In fact, the county included the flying field on their golf course web site. I had people coming from all over the US and Canada. As far as the local club members were concerned, I was supposed teach everyone for free. AMA had no problem with it, as a couple of club members from other states and Dave Mathewson vouched for me and paid RC flight instruction. Now, 4 local clubs are gone and two of the flying fields in my area are all but deserted, except for some drone fliers.
Old 04-30-2020, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Operating an "aircraft" in the US for compensation?


All too predictable, first off this was when models did not fall under the definition of " aircraft " and secondly like Andy has already stated the FAA has no jurisdiction over indoor flying. Since you seem to be the accuser in this situation, the burden of proof is on your shoulders. How about you show us the section in the FARs that deals with indoor UAS flights.
Old 04-30-2020, 02:59 PM
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Okay guys, I think we have the indoor flights covered. I think paid flights from years ago are too. Today, it's probably a whole different ball game but, as already stated, this wasn't a recent deal. That was why I didn't question Speed's flying at the events he talked about in his post last night. I also remember seeing R/C blimps at the old Kingdome during home shows, Seahawk and Mariner games. None of that would be possible today since the dome is gone, the teams play in open stadiums(albeit the Mariners do have a retractable roof at T-Mobile Park) and the FAA would have a fit if someone tried it now
Old 04-30-2020, 03:29 PM
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Hydro, Im no sure how the FAA could react to indoor Blimp flying today. That being said, if I were to do so today I would get my 107 cert. The blimps pretty much went away due to the gimmick wearing off. Petty much started when the NHL put netting around the entirety of the ice. Again one of those things that I can say " I had a good run ". Not life changing but I am still proud of the fact that millions of people were able to enjoy what I did during that time frame. Each Sharks or Warriors game averaged 40,000 and each of the 83 Dixie Chicks concerts averaged 60,000. Then of course there was this:



Old 04-30-2020, 03:49 PM
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Is that Rosie O'Donnell trying(?) to sing and fly the "fly"?
Old 04-30-2020, 04:05 PM
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Yep, during that time frame she would travel around to performers who were doing summer tours and record Christmas songs with them. Later in the year she would release a Christmas CD with these recordings and donate the proceeds to different charities. This was shot in Detroit I think in August of 2000. It's difficult to keep 83 locations in 6 months straight.
Old 04-30-2020, 04:29 PM
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Rosie......LOL . Complete nut job!

Astro
Old 05-01-2020, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Hydro, Im no sure how the FAA could react to indoor Blimp flying today. That being said, if I were to do so today I would get my 107 cert. The blimps pretty much went away due to the gimmick wearing off. Petty much started when the NHL put netting around the entirety of the ice. Again one of those things that I can say " I had a good run ". Not life changing but I am still proud of the fact that millions of people were able to enjoy what I did during that time frame. Each Sharks or Warriors game averaged 40,000 and each of the 83 Dixie Chicks concerts averaged 60,000. Then of course there was this:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sHJeBEBGteE
I went to a home game for the Sioux City Musketeers last year and they had an RC blimp flying. Apparently the tradition still lives on in some places.

Touring with the Dixie Chicks must have been a great experience. I setup equipment and ran light shows for a few local bands in my younger days. Never anything on the level of the Dixie Chicks though.

Old 05-01-2020, 04:54 AM
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Yea, they were on a pretty good roll until Natalie opened her mouth to do something other than sing, amazing how fast their world crashed around them.
Old 05-01-2020, 04:55 AM
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RC blimps might be safer than multi-rotors to shoot videos.
Old 05-03-2020, 05:52 PM
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Franklin, I copied this on drone interdiction a couple days ago but can't find the reference at the moment.

"At some point in the near future, weaponized off the shelf sUAS devices (drones) seen in war zones like Syria,
will appear in US urban airspace as asymmetric conflict weapons.

In a potential threat scenario, a non-communicative drone, or one that is flying without a mandatory flight plan
is somehow discovered among all other airborne traffic. Assume, for the sake of argument, that this drone is a
typical retail device using current battery technology. Battery life therefore limits it to approximately 30 minutes
of flight time. Several issues must be resolved within that thirty-minute flight time frame."

• It (they) must be positively identified,
• Traced back to its (their) point(s) of flight origin,
• Response teams dispatched to flight origin location(s)
• have its potential range and flight paths determined (based on time spent already in flight),
• Determine that the drone is a threat and designate as such (criteria?)
• Identify any potential targets in its predicted flight range
• Analyze and determine its weaponized payload (how?)
• Analyze and designate drone as either a ‘lone wolf’ or swam operator
• Analyze and designate for interdiction
• Have potential grounding locations along predicted flight paths designated
• Have properly equipped and trained first response teams (FRT) staged within the city
• Dispatch appropriately equipped and trained FRT(s) along predicted (potential) flight paths to
designated grounding locations(s)
• UTM controllers (?) determine pedestrian and surface traffic at designated grounding location(s)
• FRTs secure designated grounding location(s) by clearing pedestrian and surface traffic
• Interdiction ordered
• Drone grounded



Old 05-04-2020, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24
Franklin, I copied this on drone interdiction a couple days ago but can't find the reference at the moment.

"At some point in the near future, weaponized off the shelf sUAS devices (drones) seen in war zones like Syria,
will appear in US urban airspace as asymmetric conflict weapons.

In a potential threat scenario, a non-communicative drone, or one that is flying without a mandatory flight plan
is somehow discovered among all other airborne traffic. Assume, for the sake of argument, that this drone is a
typical retail device using current battery technology. Battery life therefore limits it to approximately 30 minutes
of flight time. Several issues must be resolved within that thirty-minute flight time frame."

• It (they) must be positively identified,
• Traced back to its (their) point(s) of flight origin,
• Response teams dispatched to flight origin location(s)
• have its potential range and flight paths determined (based on time spent already in flight),
• Determine that the drone is a threat and designate as such (criteria?)
• Identify any potential targets in its predicted flight range
• Analyze and determine its weaponized payload (how?)
• Analyze and designate drone as either a ‘lone wolf’ or swam operator
• Analyze and designate for interdiction
• Have potential grounding locations along predicted flight paths designated
• Have properly equipped and trained first response teams (FRT) staged within the city
• Dispatch appropriately equipped and trained FRT(s) along predicted (potential) flight paths to
designated grounding locations(s)
• UTM controllers (?) determine pedestrian and surface traffic at designated grounding location(s)
• FRTs secure designated grounding location(s) by clearing pedestrian and surface traffic
• Interdiction ordered
• Drone grounded
It's fair to say that's a classic air defense problem. Detection, classification, identification friend or foe, decision to act or not, if act then act, and then determine if successful. Constantly re-evaluate even if non-threat, for a non-threat can turn into a threat in seconds, as simple as a course change. In a military environment, you kinda know the direction of the bad guys so that's a big discriminator. You're also aided by having some idea of where they might target. In this case, the "bad guys" can from virtually any direction, and hit any number of targets.

People who say FW are not the problem miss the fact that there's been FW automomous OTS sUAS in operation for years. I can think of a popular youtube channel where the guy is constantly building and flying FW sUAS. And of course we know there's tons of long range FPV equipment out there to make it even easier. So yes, FW can be a problem too. In fact, for many missions they're superior, payload capacity if nothing else.

Similarly, those who say that a drone can't carry that much and thus can't do a lot of damage miss the point of these - it's about creating terror. The terror of randomness and uncertainty, and that doesn't require a big payload. Additionally, there are relatively lightweight payloads that could prove havoc to various parts of infrastructure, and the secondary effects could be substantial. I won't go into the how here, for obvious reasons, but it's relatively easy I think.

The point of all this is that the air defense "problem" with domestically launched sUAS is really difficult. Threat vector is any direction, potential targets are many, detection is tough, and timeline is short. Hence the effort to make EVERYTHING eventually carry RemoteID - which I support because I cannot see a practical AND EFFECTIVE method to provide the security our citizens demand w/o it.
Old 05-07-2020, 05:48 PM
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The point of all this is that the air defense "problem" with domestically launched sUAS is really difficult. Threat vector is any direction, potential targets are many, detection is tough, and timeline is short. Hence the effort to make EVERYTHING eventually carry RemoteID - which I support because I cannot see a practical AND EFFECTIVE method to provide the security our citizens demand w/o it.
What makes you think a terrorist is going to contact the FAA and register his drone bomb and make sure the remote ID works and is on? This law only takes away freedom from those that comply, law abiding citizens, it will do absolutely nothing to stop drone terrorism. It will destroy the hobby as we know it and the AMA, the real reason you like it.
Old 05-07-2020, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
The point of all this is that the air defense "problem" with domestically launched sUAS is really difficult. Threat vector is any direction, potential targets are many, detection is tough, and timeline is short. Hence the effort to make EVERYTHING eventually carry RemoteID - which I support because I cannot see a practical AND EFFECTIVE method to provide the security our citizens demand w/o it.
So I assume your theory is that Remote ID is fine because it'll allow LE to differentiate between friend or foe? So if there is no Remote ID then they must be a foe? What about all of the traditional model airplanes, helicopters, sailplanes, etc. Relegated to FRIA's? If that was the case then the FAA during the NPRM process would have made allowance for a Remote ID solution that would be a retrofit to models NOT built as part of a "system".

But they didn't do that. Which means that even your helicopters will become illegal, unless you fly at a FRIA, and those are temporary, even by the FAA's own admission.

My concern isn't that the bad actors will not use Remote ID, but that they WILL do so, by stealing some innocent modelers' info when they register. But bad actors would never do that, right?

R_Strowe



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