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AMA membership interests

Old 06-04-2020, 04:25 PM
  #51  
astrohog
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Reasonable human being, you should try it sometime.
Reasonable? Doesn't follow the law if nobody is watching, or if he doesn't think it should apply to him.......

Thanks for the laughs!

Astro
Old 06-04-2020, 05:08 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
You can't disregard the FAA and their authority over airspace the way Hanson does so flippantly.
It is interesting that the FAA has shown so little interest in enforcing either Section 349 or Part 107. As far as model airplanes posing a danger, I fall back on the decades of safe operation on our part. What has changed that suddenly they are so much more unsafe. In your 19 years of flying, when the FAA had no actual altitude rules, were model airplanes a major concern for you? Personally I was always more concerned about other manned traffic and weather. I don't get the sudden pearl clutching that somehow now, almost magically, it is unsafe for model airplanes to operate as they have for decades.

Not arguing what the law says, just curious about the apparent change in perceived risk model airplane pose in the minds of some people.
Old 06-04-2020, 05:12 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by FUTABA-RC View Post
Not arguing what the law says, just curious about the apparent change in perceived risk model airplane pose in the minds of some people.
Who has had an apparent change in perceived risk of model airplanes?

Who are, "some people"?
Old 06-04-2020, 05:13 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Wasn't it you that explained how effective the AMA's "self-policing" safety policy is?

Astro
Think whatever you want, I really don't care. Fact is you have zero authority to tell me what to do and those who do have authority have not been enforcing their law for almost 2 years now. I have always flown in a safe manner and will continue to do so.
Old 06-04-2020, 06:12 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Think whatever you want, I really don't care. Fact is you have zero authority to tell me what to do and those who do have authority have not been enforcing their law for almost 2 years now. I have always flown in a safe manner and will continue to do so.
That is pretty much what I would expect from a liberal. I know better than the law. Do as I say, not as I do. Really classy....

Not to mention being the AMA's number one fan and supporter, up until they fail to advocate for you, so you just choose to not follow the rules. LOL

Last edited by astrohog; 06-04-2020 at 06:14 PM.
Old 06-04-2020, 07:20 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by FUTABA-RC View Post
It is interesting that the FAA has shown so little interest in enforcing either Section 349 or Part 107. As far as model airplanes posing a danger, I fall back on the decades of safe operation on our part. What has changed that suddenly they are so much more unsafe. In your 19 years of flying, when the FAA had no actual altitude rules, were model airplanes a major concern for you? Personally I was always more concerned about other manned traffic and weather. I don't get the sudden pearl clutching that somehow now, almost magically, it is unsafe for model airplanes to operate as they have for decades.

Not arguing what the law says, just curious about the apparent change in perceived risk model airplane pose in the minds of some people.
You completely ignored what I said, which is you don't blow off the FAA in the public way Hanson has done
without negative consequences, with AMA is locked in a relationship with the FAA the way they are.

Model aircraft have never been a problem with GA. It's droners who get the message there are no rules.


*** You've thrown out so many red herrings we might as well talk about fishing rather than flying.
*** I said I was a licensed pilot since I was 19. You really don't read any of this, do you.

Last edited by ECHO24; 06-04-2020 at 08:33 PM.
Old 06-04-2020, 07:22 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by FUTABA-RC View Post
It is interesting that the FAA has shown so little interest in enforcing either Section 349 or Part 107. As far as model airplanes posing a danger, I fall back on the decades of safe operation on our part. What has changed that suddenly they are so much more unsafe. In your 19 years of flying, when the FAA had no actual altitude rules, were model airplanes a major concern for you? Personally I was always more concerned about other manned traffic and weather. I don't get the sudden pearl clutching that somehow now, almost magically, it is unsafe for model airplanes to operate as they have for decades.

Not arguing what the law says, just curious about the apparent change in perceived risk model airplane pose in the minds of some people.
So let's look at what's changed:
  • Technology When you look at how easy drones(in this case, I'm referring to a camera mounted on a multirotor) are to fly, many people that normally wouldn't fly anything now are. This has more than quadrupled the amount of R/C aircraft, thus making the air much more dangerous to all
  • Ease of getting information online With You Tube and other video players, you get a membership, a user name and post away. Not much online is easier and, with the proliferation of drones, many times you will see videos that required the operator to do things with said drone that they wouldn't do to get that shot without it.
  • Attitudes of those posting the information More and more, we are seeing videos that show airborne full sized aircraft at close range or things taken from above from where the drone shouldn't be. The attitude of many operators is "I'm not doing anything wrong so what's the big deal?", either not realizing or not caring that they are in violation of the law. It comes down to the "If they don't know where I am, they can't catch me" deal.
  • Attitudes of those seeing the information This is where the biggest change is. With the ease of putting video on line, more people are seeing what the operators are doing and calling for local law enforcement and lawmakers to take action. That is where Congress and the FAA are now, reacting to the complaints of those that see a video over a wild fire in California that forced fire fighting aircraft to be grounded, finding drone parts in the engine intake of a Blackhawk helicopter over New York or, as shown in the latest video, flying almost directly in the path of the Blue Angels over a city AND IN CONTROLLED AIRSPACE!!!!!!!! Let's also not forget the big B-29 that veered to the left, over a crowd of people and crashed behind them because the pilot didn't abort a take off as he should have due to engine issues. That one incident kind of shoots down the 80 years of safe flying in one video.
Boil all of that down, it becomes an issue of the pilot, his knowledge of the laws and local airspace and his ability to operate within these laws

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 06-04-2020 at 07:27 PM.
Old 06-05-2020, 03:18 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
That's not how FAA typically enforces, by going to events to check. The FAA will wait until there's an event where it's clear cut no ambiguity, then use that to make a very public example of someone. And the media will be all over it as well, which will only amplify the impact of FAA actions in terms of impact on the hobby.
That's funny you say that.

I mean, a guy hit an H-60, during a no-fly TFR, flying BLOS and damaged the aircraft.

What did the FAA do? If memory serves; little more than a slap on the wrist and a "don't do that again"

What's been done to the guy that near missed the Blue Angels? Could be under investigation, but so far, nothing that I know of.
Old 06-05-2020, 05:01 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
That's funny you say that.

I mean, a guy hit an H-60, during a no-fly TFR, flying BLOS and damaged the aircraft.

What did the FAA do? If memory serves; little more than a slap on the wrist and a "don't do that again"

What's been done to the guy that near missed the Blue Angels? Could be under investigation, but so far, nothing that I know of.
In 2012, there were changes in FAA policies to protect the privacy of airman that make it harder now to
find out what disciplinary actions are taken unless it is released. The drone operator who hit the Black
Hawk may have been fined and we didn't hear about it. In any case, that was almost 3 years ago.

If you look at the Las Vegas-McCarren drone fly-away last November at the operator was fined $14,700 and
finally $20,000 after the guy repeatedly ignored the FAA. The Blue Angles drone idiot will be fined as well.

All drone operators are supposed to be following AMA safety rules. Where is the AMA?
Old 06-05-2020, 05:03 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
What did the FAA do? If memory serves; little more than a slap on the wrist and a "don't do that again"
Unfortunately it seems to be the norm these days....the police don't arrest rioters and looters either.....does that make it okay to go looting?

Do you take that to mean that they don't expect people to obey the law?
Are you saying that you think it is okay to break the law because the FAA doesn't enforce it?
Is it your opinion that it is okay for AMA members to disregard the law and fly however they see fit?
You are a representative of the AMA, are you condoning and justifying members that are willfully breaking the law?

Astro
Old 06-05-2020, 05:15 AM
  #61  
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Where do you get all that?

What I said is the FAA is creating their own problem by lack of enforcement.

That is all I said, all the stuff that you said is what YOU said, not ME

Old 06-05-2020, 05:20 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Where do you get all that?

What I said is the FAA is creating their own problem by lack of enforcement.

That is all I said, all the stuff that you said is what YOU said, not ME
Agree 100%, if there were a few huge fines and perhaps some lengthy jail sentences for those who do exceptionally stupid things it may make people think twice before they attempt something that is blatantly unsafe.
That said, apologies to Allan who is relatively new to this forum topic and asked a fairly benign question as to where to find the info about membership interests.
Old 06-05-2020, 06:08 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Where do you get all that?

What I said is the FAA is creating their own problem by lack of enforcement.

That is all I said, all the stuff that you said is what YOU said, not ME
Please notice the question marks.....
I was asking for clarification of your stance, did not say you said them, nor did I say those things as you alluded, I ASKED them. Words have meaning, as does punctuation....

Astro
Old 06-05-2020, 06:39 AM
  #64  
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Are you saying that you think it is okay to break the law because the FAA doesn't enforce it?
No. I don't advocate breaking laws. (I'm sure you feel the same way about speed limits )

Is it your opinion that it is okay for AMA members to disregard the law and fly however they see fit?
Again NO. Not everyone knows what exactly 400 feet is nor are they equipped with telemetry. I'd much prefer the use of a spotter and staying away from ANY interaction or near interaction with full scale aircraft if they are flying a larger plane and know they may be at or near 400 feet.

You are a representative of the AMA, are you condoning and justifying members that are willfully breaking the law?
And again. NO


Old 06-05-2020, 07:24 AM
  #65  
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Thank-You for the clarification.

Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
. Not everyone knows what exactly 400 feet is nor are they equipped with telemetry.
Surely, Speedracerntrixie does, with his 5 digit AMA number, decades of experience and guru builder and competitor status, yet he openly and willfully continues to publicly thumbs his nose at the law.

Seems as though he would be a perfect example for the AMA to prove that their safety programing has some actual teeth, rather than it being some proprietory words printed on paper.

And as far as your cheeky speed limit reference, I have multiples of millions of miles of driving under my belt without a speeding ticket. You can draw your own conclusions....

Astro

Last edited by astrohog; 06-05-2020 at 07:26 AM.
Old 06-05-2020, 07:38 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Where do you get all that?

What I said is the FAA is creating their own problem by lack of enforcement.

That is all I said, all the stuff that you said is what YOU said, not ME
Those are AMA rules. Don't make the FAA the scapegoat. AMA tried to force those drone hobbyists to pay
dues without making any effort getting the word out about what those rules are. The guy who hit the Black
Hawk helicopter said he didn't know he was violating any rules. Like I said, where was the AMA?

Can't have it both ways, all the benefits of a monopoly and no responsibility. That's why the FAA stripped
AMA of their monopoly and put them a FRIA box. Now the FAA will oversee the hobby.
Old 06-05-2020, 07:53 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Those are AMA rules. Don't make the FAA the scapegoat. AMA tried to force those drone hobbyists to pay
dues without making any effort getting the word out about what those rules are. The guy who hit the Black
Hawk helicopter said he didn't know he was violating any rules. Like I said, where was the AMA?

Can't have it both ways, all the benefits of a monopoly and no responsibility. That's why the FAA stripped
AMA of their monopoly and put them a FRIA box. Now the FAA will oversee the hobby.
Echo, while I get what you are trying to say, there are many people flying RC who have never heard of the AMA and have no clue as to the safety rules. I don't believe the AMA can be held responsible for not policing those outside of the membership as to following the safety code or the FAA regulations for that matter. In fact, many of the idiotic antics of some of these drone pilots seriously shouldn't require any forehand knowledge of FAA or AMA safety rules... flying a drone close to the Blue Angels as they fly overhead above a large populated city? Really? Should one need to know specifics of rules and regulations to determine that this is a terribly bad idea?
Now as to enforcing the safety rules within the AMA and regarding the conduct of an AMA member, that is totally different. An AMA member has agreed to follow the rules when they sign up for membership.
Old 06-05-2020, 07:58 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post
Now as to enforcing the safety rules within the AMA and regarding the conduct of an AMA member, that is totally different. An AMA member has agreed to follow the rules when they sign up for membership.
So, (I am assuming you are an AMA member) how do you feel about speedracerntrixie publicly thumbing his nose at the rules on this forum?

Astro
Old 06-05-2020, 08:28 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
So, (I am assuming you are an AMA member) how do you feel about speedracerntrixie publicly thumbing his nose at the rules on this forum?

Astro
Astro, I am indeed an AMA member. From what I have understood in the posts surrounding Speed's participation in contests and flying events there were discussions with the FAA regarding the height limitations and the event organizers were told to go forward as they had planned. If that is indeed the case, and I have no reason to doubt it, then was he "thumbing his nose publicly" at the rules? At the club where I fly on occasion, everyone abides by the rules however my club is not in an area that would be conducive to flying pattern or sailplanes.

My personal opinion is that even if the rules and regulations don't make sense, are overbearing or otherwise go beyond my perceived sense of justice, the best way to deal with that is to follow the law and the rules while working towards changes that we feel need to be made to them. As you and others have stated, the fact that some rule or law is not being actively enforced does not give me the right to consider it null and void. There are club fields that have negotiated LOAs that allow for flight above 400' in certain areas, a good example of my thoughts that you follow the rules while working on an agreement for something different.

To give you a more direct answer to your question, an AMA member publicly stating that the rules shouldn't apply and that they are willfully breaking them is not good at all for our image. It isn't something I would recommend in the least.
Old 06-05-2020, 08:46 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post
To give you a more direct answer to your question, an AMA member publicly stating that the rules shouldn't apply and that they are willfully breaking them is not good at all for our image. It isn't something I would recommend in the least.
Thank you for chiming in with your opinion!

Old 06-05-2020, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post
Echo, while I get what you are trying to say, there are many people flying RC who have never heard of the AMA and have no clue as to the safety rules. I don't believe the AMA can be held responsible for not policing those outside of the membership as to following the safety code or the FAA regulations for that matter. In fact, many of the idiotic antics of some of these drone pilots seriously shouldn't require any forehand knowledge of FAA or AMA safety rules... flying a drone close to the Blue Angels as they fly overhead above a large populated city? Really? Should one need to know specifics of rules and regulations to determine that this is a terribly bad idea?
Now as to enforcing the safety rules within the AMA and regarding the conduct of an AMA member, that is totally different. An AMA member has agreed to follow the rules when they sign up for membership.
Every drone owner who registered, 1,000,000+, was told to follow AMA rules as a result of AMA's monopoly.

Saying AMA had no responsibility to make an effort to see that those people knew the rules is exactly the
kind of thinking that forced the FAA to take over RC flying.
Old 06-05-2020, 09:32 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Every drone owner who registered, 1,000,000+, was told to follow AMA rules as a result of AMA's monopoly.

Saying AMA had no responsibility to make an effort to see that those people knew the rules is exactly the
kind of thinking that forced the FAA to take over RC flying.
Echo, From the FAA website at: https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational_fliers/
Regarding registration and rules for compliance:Following these rules will keep you and your drone safe and will help keep the airspace available to everyone.
  1. Register your drone, mark (PDF) it on the outside with the registration number and carry proof of registration with you.
  2. Fly only for recreational purposes.
  3. Fly your drone at or below 400 feet above the ground when in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace.
  4. Obtain authorization before flying in controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, and E). You can obtain authorization in three ways:
    1. LAANC
    2. DroneZone
    3. A written agreement with the FAA for fixed flying sites. For more information about fixed flying sites, contact us at [email protected].
    NOTE: Flying drones in certain airspace is not allowed. Classes of airspace and flying restrictions can be found on our B4UFLY app.
  5. Keep your drone within your visual line of sight, or within the visual line-of-sight of a visual observer who is co-located (physically next to) and in direct communication with you.
  6. Do not fly at night unless your drone has lighting that allows you to know its location and orientation at all times.
  7. Give way to and do not interfere with manned aircraft.
  8. Never fly over any person or moving vehicle.
  9. Never interfere with emergency response activities such as disaster relief, any type of accident response, law enforcement activities, firefighting, or hurricane recovery efforts.
  10. Never fly under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Many over-the-counter medications have side effects that could impact your ability to safely operate your drone.
  11. Do not operate your drone in a careless or reckless manner.
Recreational flyers should know that if they intentionally violate any of these safety requirements, and/or operate in a careless or reckless manner, they could be liable for criminal and/or civil penalties.

There is no direct mention of following AMA rules or the rules of a CBO in the registration requirements. The FAA laid out the rules fairly plainly right there on the registration website. Folks registering have no excuses, not having been told what the AMA safety code says doesn't come into play.

Last edited by jcmors; 06-05-2020 at 09:39 AM.
Old 06-05-2020, 11:06 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post
Echo, From the FAA website at: https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational_fliers/
Regarding registration and rules for compliance:Following these rules will keep you and your drone safe and will help keep the airspace available to everyone.
  1. Register your drone, mark (PDF) it on the outside with the registration number and carry proof of registration with you.
  2. Fly only for recreational purposes.
  3. Fly your drone at or below 400 feet above the ground when in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace.
  4. Obtain authorization before flying in controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, and E). You can obtain authorization in three ways:
    1. LAANC
    2. DroneZone
    3. A written agreement with the FAA for fixed flying sites. For more information about fixed flying sites, contact us at [email protected].
    NOTE: Flying drones in certain airspace is not allowed. Classes of airspace and flying restrictions can be found on our B4UFLY app.
  5. Keep your drone within your visual line of sight, or within the visual line-of-sight of a visual observer who is co-located (physically next to) and in direct communication with you.
  6. Do not fly at night unless your drone has lighting that allows you to know its location and orientation at all times.
  7. Give way to and do not interfere with manned aircraft.
  8. Never fly over any person or moving vehicle.
  9. Never interfere with emergency response activities such as disaster relief, any type of accident response, law enforcement activities, firefighting, or hurricane recovery efforts.
  10. Never fly under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Many over-the-counter medications have side effects that could impact your ability to safely operate your drone.
  11. Do not operate your drone in a careless or reckless manner.
Recreational flyers should know that if they intentionally violate any of these safety requirements, and/or operate in a careless or reckless manner, they could be liable for criminal and/or civil penalties.

There is no direct mention of following AMA rules or the rules of a CBO in the registration requirements. The FAA laid out the rules fairly plainly right there on the registration website. Folks registering have no excuses, not having been told what the AMA safety code says doesn't come into play.
That is the most recent revision. For 8 years it had the CBO language. Continually looking for
excuses for AMA is what did the hobby in.

*** I posted portions of that myself a little while back pointing out that is was part of
the FAA's rebuke of Hanson and AMA over forced membership, by specifically
stating hobbyists only had to follow the rules.

Last edited by ECHO24; 06-05-2020 at 11:17 AM.
Old 06-05-2020, 11:16 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
That is the most recent revision. For 8 years it had the CBO language. Continually looking for
excuses for AMA is what did the hobby in.
That could be, and please understand I'm not trying to make any excuses for the AMA, all I am trying to say is individuals have a responsibility to obey the law (ignorance of the law is no excuse). When there was language in there regarding following the safety code of a CBO, when an individual signed up for an FAA registration it was their responsibility to acquaint themselves with those rules and that safety code. When I agree to follow the rules, speed limits and laws in my State to obtain a driver's license, the fact that I never obtained the free driver's handbook and/or never read it does not absolve me of obeying the laws. The individuals doing idiotic, stupid things with drones are responsible as individuals for not following the rules and, in most cases, for not using common sense logic. If someone doesn't intuitively understand that flying close to, above, near, around manned aircraft, or over a large metropolitan area, crowds of people etc. is dangerous and generally a bad idea, in my humble opinion they are likely too stupid to be allowed to go free in society. They are a danger to themselves and others. The AMA has no more responsibility to police non members than the NRA being responsible for people doing dangerous and illegal things with their guns.

For an AMA member not following rules the limit to what the AMA could do about that is revoke their membership, what do you propose the AMA could do to a non member who isn't following the rules?

Last edited by jcmors; 06-05-2020 at 11:19 AM.
Old 06-05-2020, 01:35 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post
That could be, and please understand I'm not trying to make any excuses for the AMA, all I am trying to say is individuals have a responsibility to obey the law (ignorance of the law is no excuse). When there was language in there regarding following the safety code of a CBO, when an individual signed up for an FAA registration it was their responsibility to acquaint themselves with those rules and that safety code. When I agree to follow the rules, speed limits and laws in my State to obtain a driver's license, the fact that I never obtained the free driver's handbook and/or never read it does not absolve me of obeying the laws. The individuals doing idiotic, stupid things with drones are responsible as individuals for not following the rules and, in most cases, for not using common sense logic. If someone doesn't intuitively understand that flying close to, above, near, around manned aircraft, or over a large metropolitan area, crowds of people etc. is dangerous and generally a bad idea, in my humble opinion they are likely too stupid to be allowed to go free in society. They are a danger to themselves and others. The AMA has no more responsibility to police non members than the NRA being responsible for people doing dangerous and illegal things with their guns.

For an AMA member not following rules the limit to what the AMA could do about that is revoke their membership, what do you propose the AMA could do to a non member who isn't following the rules?
Everything you say about personal responsibility is true, and obviously doesn't work. A clear message from AMA
to push droners to follow their rules was needed, but AMA's only message was defiance, starting with their lawsuit
against the FAA giving droners a license to break FPV rules, and every other rule the AMA defied the FAA on (and lost).

Rather than help, AMA fueled the drone anarchy that led to the repeal of 336 and the FAA taking over the hobby,
while thinking drones were their future. Talk about an epic failure.



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