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July MA - AMA CFO Paints Grim Economic Future

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July MA - AMA CFO Paints Grim Economic Future

Old 07-03-2020, 11:54 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post
We can argue and discuss all day long about what was done, what went wrong, what should have been done, etc... and at the end of the day we will still be in the same situation with the FAA and the government trying to shut us down. My opinion:
  1. The AMA should not have attempted to force membership in our organization using FAA regulations. That was just plain wrong.
  2. Call for the prosecution, basically, of everyone not an AMA member who is flying recreational model aircraft in the Hill alienated many folks.
  3. As an organization we should have concentrated on our members and not "romanced the drone" for now we are ALL "drones".
  4. The AMA is in dire financial straights due to not paying attention to trends and yes, basically mis managing funds.
So, having said all that, and voiced my opinions... what now? It is obvious to me that the AMA is NOT going to save model aviation. FRIAs are really not the answer. Consider the dream of FRIAs causing all of the registered but non AMA members actually being forced to join the AMA in order to fly their existing equipment. Picture 700,000 folks streaming into our ~2000 club sites that are approved as FRIAs, there will be no room and no opportunity to fly there anyhow! We would be standing in line for hours waiting to get a 10 minute flight in!

We can argue all day about what was done wrong, what should have been done, what would have happened if this or that was done differently and we can keep arguing and fighting among ourselves. The past is the past, we are here now and dwelling on the past won't fix our problems. Lets consider something that most of us here may be able to agree on, the fight to save our hobby is now our responsibility, each one of us as individuals. We need to present a positive image of our hobby to the general public and to our representatives in Congress. It is OUR responsibility as hobbyists to come up with ways to make a difference. AMA member or non AMA member, as hobbyists we are all in this thing together and we need to work together towards solutions.

Again, just my humble opinion.
FINALLY, SOMEONE THAT GETS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone buy this guy a beer(or any other beverage that he wants)
Old 07-03-2020, 12:13 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
How does opposition of Franklin automatically mean support of the AMA? What I support is the HOBBY AND INDUSTRY as a whole. Have any of you thought about the negative impact the loss of pattern, soaring, IMAC, giant scale and jets will have on the hobby? Franklin talks about the 60M in cost to participate but leaves out the 100M plus in lost investment and the loss of industry sales, taxes through those sales, employment taxes by people currently employed by the R/C industry.


Just look at his opposition to AMA holding the Nats in spite of several SIGs backing out. How do you think Muncie as a whole is going to do without the economic stimulus that the Nats with its thousands of participants over a two month time frame brings to that community? The Nats brings revenue to restaurants, hotels, gas stations, airlines, car rental companies etc. Some of these businesses depend on that additional income each June and July. Start looking at the whole picture.
Let's look a little closer to home. Seattle, Portland and Vancouver BC businesses are losing MILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVERY WEEK due to lost jobs, no tourism and people working from home that used to have to go into the cities to work. Restaurants are, in many cases just holding on while others have been forced to close. Millions of people have been infected with the corona virus and over 100K are dead because of it or complications there of. People are protesting this and that, shutting down whole sections of the cities while showing they also don't get what's actually happening. And here, in this thread, you're complaining about having $10,000 worth of toy airplanes that you might not be able to fly as you always have or go to a small town with a monument to an organization that has taken your money and then sold you out over the powers that be's own corruption and greed. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite that pathetic. As you can probably tell, I SEE A DIFFERENT BIG PICTURE

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 07-03-2020 at 12:43 PM.
Old 07-03-2020, 01:27 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Just look at his opposition to AMA holding the Nats in spite of several SIGs backing out. How do you think Muncie as a whole is going to do without the economic stimulus that the Nats with its thousands of participants over a two month time frame brings to that community? The Nats brings revenue to restaurants, hotels, gas stations, airlines, car rental companies etc. Some of these businesses depend on that additional income each June and July. Start looking at the whole picture.
Now that I've compared our local large cities to Muncie, Speed, how about we look at smaller towns that are local to us:
Let's start with Leavenworth Washington. This is a tourist town that has no other real industry. The main money making periods are the Mayfest, Memorial Day weekend, July 4th weekend, Labor Day weekend, Octoberfest and the Christmas Lighting Celebration. As you can probably tell, they have already lost the first two and will probably be hard hit by this weekend, meaning the town has lost almost 50% of it's income since it's main revenue sources are restaurants, hotels and small shops
Now, lets look at Seaside Oregon and Ocean Shores Washington. These two towns are tourist towns as well but with the added boost of professional and charter fishing. With people not wanting to travel and social distancing being the unofficial "law of the land", charter fishing is in serious trouble and, with it, so are the restaurants, hotels and little shops that depend on the fishing fleets to survive. Muncie has nothing on these three in my book.

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 07-03-2020 at 01:29 PM.
Old 07-03-2020, 03:40 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post

We can argue all day about what was done wrong, what should have been done, what would have happened if this or that was done differently and we can keep arguing and fighting among ourselves. The past is the past, we are here now and dwelling on the past won't fix our problems. Lets consider something that most of us here may be able to agree on, the fight to save our hobby is now our responsibility, each one of us as individuals. We need to present a positive image of our hobby to the general public and to our representatives in Congress. It is OUR responsibility as hobbyists to come up with ways to make a difference. AMA member or non AMA member, as hobbyists we are all in this thing together and we need to work together towards solutions.

Again, just my humble opinion.
I don’t disagree. But to move forward and save the hobby does require us (as hobbyists) to know how we got here in the first place.

Did the AMA screw up? Oh, yeah they did. Did the AMA make assumptions they shouldn’t have? Oh, yeah they did. Does it appear that they might (belatedly) finally might be getting the message? Finally, yes.

The history of this debacle is well documented at this point. We need to try and move forward now, with constructive, realistic ideas.

As has been said, the AMA, although not totally irrelevant, has been rendered mostly impotent. So now it’s time to save ourselves.

R_Strowe
Old 07-03-2020, 03:49 PM
  #30  
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Andy Argenio (District I) asked if AMA should be looking at the membership status of clubs, what requirements or restrictions they have, and what their membership status is. He asked if this should be done on a local level or a national level. Keith feels that possibly finding a hobby might be something people want to do. Chad Budreau (AMA ED) noted that AMA had done an informal survey to determine the status of clubs. He will take it as an action item to revisit the survey. Andy stated that it could be a good marketing tool to consider: flying, being outside, and observing social distancing. Eric noted that AMA staff has done a good job of working with social media to get the word out, attract potential members, and sharing what other modelers are doing during the COVID-19 shutdown.

There are 2400 AMA clubs. This is where the growth action should be. God helps those who help themselves. Looks like AMA HQ may be on the right track.
Curious what's going to happen when/if they hire a Membership Acquisition Lead. I hear they have someone in mind.
Just wondering what she or he could do that AMA couldn't handle for decades.
Old 07-03-2020, 04:13 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by fliers1 View Post
Curious what's going to happen when/if they hire a Membership Acquisition Lead. I hear they have someone in mind.
Just wondering what she or he could do that AMA couldn't handle for decades.
The same thing has been suggested in other groups I belong to and the problem comes down to a couple of simple issues:
1) Trying to sell the same thing to everyone interested in the hobby is pointless. Someone that wants to compete will be much more likely to join than the Sunday flier that wants to go float around the air for a bit and then go grab a drink. The effect is kind of like having every car lot selling the same car. Some will want it while others won't.
2) How do you show people with different lifestyles and objectives a value for the money asked? Those that want instant gratification won't see any value while, at the same time, those that see themselves travelling to other locations with the hobby in mind could. Convincing those that there is value when they see none is a waste of time and, in the case of the AMA, will only chase those that are looking at park flyers and foam planes away.
So, to answer the question, probably nothing, other than burn the treasury faster with a probably $50K+ yearly salary being paid for no relevant returns

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 07-03-2020 at 04:16 PM.
Old 07-03-2020, 05:14 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
The same thing has been suggested in other groups I belong to and the problem comes down to a couple of simple issues:
1) Trying to sell the same thing to everyone interested in the hobby is pointless. Someone that wants to compete will be much more likely to join than the Sunday flier that wants to go float around the air for a bit and then go grab a drink. The effect is kind of like having every car lot selling the same car. Some will want it while others won't.
2) How do you show people with different lifestyles and objectives a value for the money asked? Those that want instant gratification won't see any value while, at the same time, those that see themselves travelling to other locations with the hobby in mind could. Convincing those that there is value when they see none is a waste of time and, in the case of the AMA, will only chase those that are looking at park flyers and foam planes away.
So, to answer the question, probably nothing, other than burn the treasury faster with a probably $50K+ yearly salary being paid for no relevant returns
I'm one of those people who consider competing the act of me VS the force of gravity trying to rekit my plane , and only belong to the "organized" side of the hobby (AMA and local AMA required flying club) to assure I always have a place to fly . Once that assurance is gone and the hobby ends up regulated to death , I won't have much use for any such "organization" any longer and will likely retire from the hobby at that point . TBH it's been a bit of a toss for me lately as to whether our hobby will be regulated out of existence before I age out of it , it's kinda sad to think the hobby may literally end up buried with me .....
Old 07-03-2020, 05:18 PM
  #33  
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Organic attraction to the hobby is the single best thing that will attract membership. It can't be forced, and it is difficult to market to the general public, especially now that flight is not such a novelty. The single best way to attract members is to have vibrant clubs and flying sites with folks that are welcoming to visitors and the public. This really needs to happen at a local level and this is not new, it has ALWAYS been that way. The AMA needs to spend it's $$ on it's clubs. The clubs and their respective flying fields are the number one resource that will ensure our hobby survives.

I think it is about time that the AMA realize this and start supporting it's clubs instead of Taj Muncie.

Astro
Old 07-03-2020, 05:22 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
organic attraction to the hobby is the single best thing that will attract membership. It can't be forced, and it is difficult to market to the general public, especially now that flight is not such a novelty. The single best way to attract members is to have vibrant clubs and flying sites with folks that are welcoming to visitors and the public. This really needs to happen at a local level and this is not new, it has always been that way. The ama needs to spend it's $$ on it's clubs. The clubs and their respective flying fields are the number one resource that will ensure our hobby survives.

I think it is about time that the ama realize this and start supporting it's clubs instead of taj muncie.

Astro
where's the damn like button???
Old 07-03-2020, 05:40 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by R_Strowe View Post
Does it appear that they might (belatedly) finally might be getting the message? Finally, yes.
I don't see any sign that they are getting the message.

What signs do you see that lead you to believe they are?
Old 07-03-2020, 06:39 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
FINALLY, SOMEONE THAT GETS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone buy this guy a beer(or any other beverage that he wants)
Thanks Hydro,
Done flying for the day so I'll relax and have a Coors!
Old 07-04-2020, 03:10 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Organic attraction to the hobby is the single best thing that will attract membership. It can't be forced, and it is difficult to market to the general public, especially now that flight is not such a novelty. The single best way to attract members is to have vibrant clubs and flying sites with folks that are welcoming to visitors and the public. This really needs to happen at a local level and this is not new, it has ALWAYS been that way. The AMA needs to spend it's $$ on it's clubs. The clubs and their respective flying fields are the number one resource that will ensure our hobby survives.

I think it is about time that the AMA realize this and start supporting it's clubs instead of Taj Muncie.Astro
Going back years I've been saying that the best draw for members is a club close to where potential members live and work (and that's not Taj-Muncie), that has top facilities, low cost, and is accepting members. Consider that the "Gold Standard."

As a strategy, I proposed AMA survey facilities, membership status (accepting or not), and costs. Then using software geolocate them vs. existing members and vs existing population centers. Idea being to find where there's "gaps" in quality clubs close to members. Similar concept to the "food deserts" being discussed these days. Specifically, where are the "Quality reasonable cost clubs accepting new members deserts?"

Then, instead of plowing money into more staff and that money sump of magazine and staff, put that money into eliminating those club deserts described above. Club grants are a tiny fraction of what they LOSE, each and every year on that magazine. Put that money into clubs. All of it. And that includes buying land and paying for mowing etc. Again, it's the local club that draws. Not Muncie staff.
Old 07-04-2020, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmors View Post
Thanks Hydro,
Done flying for the day so I'll relax and have a Coors!
Too bad you're not closer. I have a bottle of Armenian Brandy I brought back from Kazakhstan - Ararat Vaspurakan. Same company that made the stuff Stalin gave to Churchill at Yalta. Would happily pour you one!

https://en.araratbrandy.com
Old 07-04-2020, 03:30 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
How does opposition of Franklin automatically mean support of the AMA? What I support is the HOBBY AND INDUSTRY as a whole. Have any of you thought about the negative impact the loss of pattern, soaring, IMAC, giant scale and jets will have on the hobby? Franklin talks about the 60M in cost to participate but leaves out the 100M plus in lost investment and the loss of industry sales, taxes through those sales, employment taxes by people currently employed by the R/C industry.


Just look at his opposition to AMA holding the Nats in spite of several SIGs backing out. How do you think Muncie as a whole is going to do without the economic stimulus that the Nats with its thousands of participants over a two month time frame brings to that community? The Nats brings revenue to restaurants, hotels, gas stations, airlines, car rental companies etc. Some of these businesses depend on that additional income each June and July. Start looking at the whole picture.
I see that you're quoting an annual amount ($100 million) that's conveniently more than than the $60 million annual costs (not considered in the rule) that I quoted. So I'm VERY curious to see how you come up with that $100 million annually number.

I got the $60 million figure (generously low) by taking the number of FAA recreational registrants, subtracting the AMA's most generous quoted number of members, and then multiplying by $75 a year. And keep in mind, my $60 million doesn't even include club fees.

Per FAA, 1,117,900 recreational drones registered (note 1). Per AMA, they have 195,000 members (note 2). Doing simple math, we have (1,117,900 - 195,000) x $75 a year = $69,217,500 each year -- not counting club fees.

So how about you show us all how you come up with "100M plus in lost investment and the loss of industry sales, taxes through those sales, employment taxes by people currently employed by the R/C industry?"

Oh, and how about you also show us how those jobs go away forever, and that they don't merely transition into FAA RemoteID compliant sUAS production?

Note 1: https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/by_the_numbers/
Note 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academ...el_Aeronautics
Old 07-04-2020, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by R_Strowe View Post
I don’t disagree. But to move forward and save the hobby does require us (as hobbyists) to know how we got here in the first place.

Did the AMA screw up? Oh, yeah they did. Did the AMA make assumptions they shouldn’t have? Oh, yeah they did. Does it appear that they might (belatedly) finally might be getting the message? Finally, yes.

The history of this debacle is well documented at this point. We need to try and move forward now, with constructive, realistic ideas.
How about we begin by demanding the resignations of the people at AMA who "[made] assumptions they shouldn’t have?" Ironically, they're the same ones STILL making decisions. What's the old saying about putting good money after bad? Why then do we continue keeping the same people in place who've demonstrated, MORE THAN ONCE, that they're not making good decisions?
Old 07-04-2020, 06:22 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
Too bad you're not closer. I have a bottle of Armenian Brandy I brought back from Kazakhstan - Ararat Vaspurakan. Same company that made the stuff Stalin gave to Churchill at Yalta. Would happily pour you one!

https://en.araratbrandy.com
I'll have a virtual brandy with you. Thanks! That looks like an excellent brandy.
Old 07-04-2020, 10:08 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
How about we begin by demanding the resignations of the people at AMA who "[made] assumptions they shouldn’t have?"
There is no basis in the Bylaws to do that. However, you do have the ability to try to vote them out of office, which is how the system works. Keep in mind that it is the EC that forms the strategy, and the paid staff merely implements what the EC tells them to do.
Old 07-04-2020, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FUTABA-RC View Post
There is no basis in the Bylaws to do that.
Given their peformance thus far: near continuously declining membership, near continuously declining revenue, near continuously declining total assets, near continuously declining participation in competitions, failure to progress court case, failure to prevent repeal of 336, and failure to prevent imposition of operational limits in 349 .... if they had ANY dignity, they'd resign.

Originally Posted by FUTABA-RC View Post
However, you do have the ability to try to vote them out of office, which is how the system works.
I would note that more people voted against "Dear Leader" Hanson in the last election than voted for him.

Originally Posted by FUTABA-RC View Post
Keep in mind that it is the EC that forms the strategy, and the paid staff merely implements what the EC tells them to do.
Are you kidding? It's Hanson that makes strategy. All the others are, for the most part, yes men. EC minutes show very little disagreement with "Dear Leader."
Old 07-04-2020, 03:56 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
I see that you're quoting an annual amount ($100 million) that's conveniently more than than the $60 million annual costs (not considered in the rule) that I quoted. So I'm VERY curious to see how you come up with that $100 million annually number.

I got the $60 million figure (generously low) by taking the number of FAA recreational registrants, subtracting the AMA's most generous quoted number of members, and then multiplying by $75 a year. And keep in mind, my $60 million doesn't even include club fees.

Per FAA, 1,117,900 recreational drones registered (note 1). Per AMA, they have 195,000 members (note 2). Doing simple math, we have (1,117,900 - 195,000) x $75 a year = $69,217,500 each year -- not counting club fees.

So how about you show us all how you come up with "100M plus in lost investment and the loss of industry sales, taxes through those sales, employment taxes by people currently employed by the R/C industry?"

Oh, and how about you also show us how those jobs go away forever, and that they don't merely transition into FAA RemoteID compliant sUAS production?

Note 1: https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/by_the_numbers/
Note 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academ...el_Aeronautics

Current AMA membership is approximately 140,000. If we take an average estimate that each member has $1,000 invested in models that are at risk of being made obsolete we reach a figure of $140M. That $1,000 per member is rather conservative. Note I did NOT claim this to be an annual loss as you said I did. Either you misread what I wrote or you are intentionally trying to mislead those here that will blindly follow whatever it is that you say.


So you don't think the hobby shop owner that has to close his doors because he can't take a financial hit of having a good portion of his inventory all the sudden unsalable is a valid concern. Of the guy that is in his mid 70s supplementing his SS by working part time at the hobby shop is going to be unaffected? How about when there are fewer R/C products manufactured so prices for what is available increase dramatically?


What makes me believe these things, 40+ years in the hobby, 20 of those years in the industry. Now I know you place zero value on the experience of others, I know it's because it's something that you will never obtain for yourself. Your failure to accept my experience doesn't mean I am wrong, only means you are too ignorant to realize that there are a great many things concerning this hobby that you are clueless about.
Old 07-04-2020, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
What makes me believe these things, 40+ years in the hobby, 20 of those years in the industry. Now I know you place zero value on the experience of others, I know it's because it's something that you will never obtain for yourself. Your failure to accept my experience doesn't mean I am wrong, only means you are too ignorant to realize that there are a great many things concerning this hobby that you are clueless about.
AND.....THAT is where your post goes South and gets personal. Just can't help yourself can you?

Did your Mom not give you much attention as a child? You seem to have an incessant need for others to give you strokes.

Astro
Old 07-04-2020, 04:35 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
AND.....THAT is where your post goes South and gets personal. Just can't help yourself can you?

Did your Mom not give you much attention as a child? You seem to have an incessant need for others to give you strokes.

Astro

Nice try, coward. Does it make you feel more like a man to say things behind a keyboard that could very well get you knocked on your ass if said face to face?
Old 07-04-2020, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Nice try, coward. Does it make you feel more like a man to say things behind a keyboard that could very well get you knocked on your ass if said face to face?
Dude, really? It was a legitimate observation based on your posting history. Look in the mirror and don't throw stones if your house is built of glass.

Oh..... I stopped settling disagreements on the playground with violence when I was in the third grade. I found it didn't really solve anything. Maybe we should see whose Dad is tougher?

Astro

Last edited by astrohog; 07-04-2020 at 04:46 PM.
Old 07-04-2020, 04:53 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Dude, really? It was a legitimate observation based on your posting history. Look in the mirror and don't throw stones if your house is built of glass.

Oh..... I stopped settling disagreements on the playground with violence when I was in the third grade. I found it didn't really solve anything. Maybe we should see whose Dad is tougher?

Astro

Really, you want an observation? Why it it you only come onto RCU looking for a fight? Why are you so quick to fight over something that was said to Franklin? I really struck a nerve with that experience comment didn't I? Why is it that you only have issues with guys who have more experience in the hobby then you do or fly competition or large expensive airplanes? Inferiority complex much?
Old 07-04-2020, 05:11 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Really, you want an observation? Why it it you only come onto RCU looking for a fight? Why are you so quick to fight over something that was said to Franklin? I really struck a nerve with that experience comment didn't I? Why is it that you only have issues with guys who have more experience in the hobby then you do or fly competition or large expensive airplanes? Inferiority complex much?
First, I only have a problem when these discussions turn personal. Look at MY posting history. I let everyone have their opinions (unless they simply aren't supported by the facts), but I ALWAYS call out folks who start throwing personal slams into the discussion (it usually means that they don't have anything of substance to add to the thread and are frustrated because their opinion has been debunked by the facts), because it always ends ugly when it gets personal. I am not on this forum to get personal, I am here to discuss the AMA.

Second, you have no idea what my experience in this hobby is. I choose not to puff my chest out and strut around here, I just post from my experience, and it is just as substantial as you claim yours to be. Since you brought it up, I have single airplanes that cost more than your entire fleet, I just choose not to broadcast it, because it matters not and has no bearing in the conversation at hand. So, to speak to your "inferiority complex" comment, I will repeat myself and simply ask that you look in the mirror. I do not feel the need to espouse my virtues here, my posts speak for themselves and I do not need to justify them or answer to you for them.

Astro
Old 07-04-2020, 05:19 PM
  #50  
speedracerntrixie
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
First, I only have a problem when these discussions turn personal. Look at MY posting history. I let everyone have their opinions (unless they simply aren't supported by the facts),




but I ALWAYS call out folks who start throwing personal slams into the discussion (it usually means that they don't have anything of substance to add to the thread and are frustrated because their opinion has been debunked by the facts), because it always ends ugly when it gets personal. I am not on this forum to get personal, I am here to discuss the AMA.



Astro


LOL, you ALLOW people to have their opinions unless you don't agree with them. IMO that says a great deal about you right there.

Got news for you, Franklin gets personal just as much if not more then anyone else here, by all means show me where you called him on it. Or are you too busy kissing his ass?

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