astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

UMMM....WHY do you think this forum has been used as a method to convey disappointment with the AMA EC and member opinions? (many here, including you, just call it whining)

If you had actually read what some have done and TRIED to do, you would realize that all those efforts have fallen on the deaf ears of the AMA execs.

Every time the facts have been presented here and the AMA cheerleaders have failed to counter the facts with anything of substance that justifies the current state of AMA affairs, they resort to, "Why don't you do something about it yourself". Pretty lame, when we already PAY people to serve those functions and do that work! THAT is the whole point of our collective, "whining"!

Get it now? (yet)

Astro

franklin_m

No, it's the AMA and it's "leaders" that have written any prophecy.

THEY put the organization on its current financial path.
THEY continued to do the same things and hope for a different result with respect to that financial path.
THEY decided to ignore offers to help them change direction.
THEY continued to put good money after bad.
THEY refuse to be fully open and transparent with members about their own performance.

So like I said, THEY wrote any "prophecy" that exists.

FUTABA-RC

I admire your ability to stay focused on this for so long given how little response you have gotten.

FUTABA-RC

Well, I don't think it has been an effective method for conveying anything except for the half dozen of so that seem to post endlessly in this forum. I sincerely doubt the RC pays much attention to this forum despite at least one DVP being a member. I would also bet that very few members are even aware this forum exists, so the audience in mostly the small group that posts here.

But you're having fun I suppose, so there's that. I gave up on thinking the AMA was going to make any real changes or difference sometime ago. Every time the AMA declares victory the FAA seems to have an opposite opinion. The loss of 336, the requirements of 349, and the coming RID are going to end an awful lot of this hobby. I'm just going to try to enjoy what little time is left. I've been flying more jelis lately. Having a blast. Just got back from putting 5 more flights in!!

franklin_m

I read your post above (corrected). Unlike you I'm not convinced it's too late to save the organization, but I will admit that time is rapidly running out. The longer they wait the more dramatic (and painful) the change needed .. up to a point. For there is indeed a point of no-return.

Hydro Junkie

To me, it's not a matter of having fun. It's more a matter of showing those that are AMA "Minions" that there is a problem and THEY NEED TO ACT!!!! That said, non-members need to act outside of the AMA to prevent the grounding of everything that flies or your "doom and gloom" statement above could just happen.
I've watched what's happening as an outsider and can see what most of the members can't(you obviously being an exception, hence the word most), Muncie is trying to save Muncie, plain and simple. It's obvious to me through the "romancing the drone" and FRIA push, all are nothing more than ploys to get more members and build up the treasury. More than that, however, is the funding for pet projects that some of the EC want to spend millions of dollars on for no logical reason other than to just do so(first to mind is an indoor flying facility for small FF and drones). You disagree with me on another topic, and that's fine, but this one I see a bigger picture than just model aviation. I'm looking at R/C in general. I've got thousands of dollars tied up in the hobby(both boats and planes) and I don't want to see what's happening to aircraft happen to surface vehicles since, depending on what happens with aircraft, the FAA and Congress, cars/boats/etc could be next to be shut down.

FUTABA-RC

For an organization you are not even a member of you spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to show the masses the errors of their ways for not hating the AMA. I wonder how it would go on the NAMBA or IMPBA forums if a non-member hopped in and started lecturing everyone on what was wrong with those organizations?

Hydro Junkie

IF the AMA was doing what it was created for, way back when, I probably would be a member right now. As I said, in my previous post, I do have aircraft under construction that I stopped working on due to the AMA/FAA/Congress "feud" over multi-rotors. My collection includes a pair of Kadets that are being built from plans, three 50cc gas powered aerobatic planes waiting to be started, again from plans and a Goldberg Electra kit.
As for NAMBA and IMPBA, I'll be the first to say they are not perfect in any sense of the word. That said, they aren't pulling the same kinds of asinine stunts and games the AMA has been trying to pull off. Had NAMBA been pulling those kinds of stunts, I'd be just as vocal there as I am here and probably wouldn't be a member there either. The only reason I am a member is so I can race my scale hydroplanes. If I was just "fun running", I wouldn't bother with membership

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Here’s the deal. There are a few here that have brought some grim facts of reality to light regarding the dismal performance and state of the AMA.
Don’t shoot the messenger(s)!
Fact is, if nobody spoke up, nobody would be aware of the sad state of the AMA.
Don’t shoot the messenger(s)
I’m tired of being labeled an “AMA hater” for simply discussing the sad reality we are facing.
The fact is, I AM a member, I DO pay my dues, and I DO want the AMA to succeed, and I AM entitled to my voice.
I resent that you, Bill, can come on here and label me a hater and allege I am here to simply, “Have fun”. I have decades of my time and tens of thousands of dollars wrapped up in this hobby. It is one of my lifelong passions. For you (and this goes for the others as well) to disparage me because of my opinions here is absolutely shameful and dishonest.

Astro

FUTABA-RC

OK, I'll leave you to it then. And I never labeled you a hater. At least you are a member. I simply don't get the point of the endless carping in this forum. So far it does not seem to have had any effect.

R_Strowe

I will look for the info, but I seem to remember that the reason that the NATS stopped traveling (at least with regard to the Navy sponsorship) was budget cuts. The NATS is quite the event, I don't know if you've ever been to one. As it is, I've only been to one myself (Westover), and it took up essentially the entire base. And costs a lot of $$'s. So another reason for consolidating it is a reduction in costs.

In regards to the skating analogy, typical local competitions would have a total of probably 50 competitors, and there would be 5-10 such competitions in a region, with maybe 3 classes. so out of 250-500 you would get 9. Now, again I don't exactly remember (this was 45 years ago), but I think there are 3 regions to a Sectional, with 3 or 4 Sectionals. So 27 times say 4 is 108 competitors total, and each Sectional sends 9 to Nationals. So 36 competitors, who have incurred enormous expenses (outside of the normally ridiculous costs of figure skating).

Now again, when it comes to big competitions, I would have no issue with AMA buying and developing future Muncie-style venues, so that large meets such as the NATS, the Scale Masters, Top Gun, etc could have more even better attendance.

R_Strowe

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

R_Strowe,

While I appreciate your response, you still haven't answered my question (unless I am completely dense!).
You said that the local, regional, national method of competition worked for skating, but wouldn't for model airplanes. I am curious as to why you think that.

My kids are competitive bowlers. They compete in one tournament each year that starts at a local level, with most all youth league bowlers participating. the top 50% advance to sectionals (there are two sectionals in WA State, East and West). The top 25% of each sectional advance to the state level to crown a state champ. Unfortunately, this tourney does not advance to any kind of national level, but it could, following the same model (top 5 or ten from each state go to Nationals).
Another national tourney that they compete in is called Junior Gold. It is the largest youth bowling tourney in the world, with over 5,000 competitors each year. It travels to a different city each year, but has been somewhat limited to what cities it can travel to lately, due to the sheer amount of lanes needed to accommodate this many bowlers. It is a week-long event. Can you imagine 5,000 youth, Mom and Dad, Grandma and Grandpa, etc in one city for a whole week of bowling tournament? I have two boys and we have attended this tournament every year for the last 13 or 14 years. Trust me, I am well aware of what it takes logistically and financially to compete at a high level on a national stage. Anyway, the Junior Gold tourney holds local qualifier in conjunction with existing youth tournaments throughout the bowling season. If a tournament director wishes his tournament to be a Junior Gold qualifier (his tourney must meet certain qualifications, ie; minimum of 6 games, etc.), he collects an additional entry fee from the kids who wish to compete and I believe it is 1 in 4 entrants win (earn) their spot to compete at that years' Junior Gold tourney , usually held in July. Cities we have travelled to for Junior Gold: Indianapolis (3 times), Detroit (3 times), Chicago, Buffalo, Las Vegas, Dallas, Cleveland. The hosting organization for this event (United States Bowling Congress, or USBC) takes bids from cities a couple years in advance of these tournaments and are paid DEARLY by the host city to bring a captive audience of that size to their city for a week.

I am curious why you think this won't work for modeling competitions? As I said before, it seems to work well for Scale Masters.

Astro

R_Strowe

Astro,

First off, thank yo for the civilized answer. And I guess I actually didn't answer your question.

My opinion is that for the average modeler who wants to give competition flying a try would look at that program and the time involved and say never mind, as it then increases the time and expense to the individual. I guess that it could work, but for someone like me (for example) it would be nearly impossible unless I could get my work schedule to coincide with the competition schedule needed to get to the National level (not likely). And I think that's probably the biggest issue. Admittedly I may also be putting my own personal bias on the idea. I've been out of competition flying for decades now, mostly because of the time and financial commitment needed. So I'd prefer keeping the NATS more of an "Open" style competition, open to all AMA members.

R_Strowe

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Thank-You for your response. I certainly see it from your individual perspective.

My experience with all types of competition has been fairly similar. I've competed in MANY different sports/activities over the years, basketball, volleyball, softball, bicycle racing, flying, and through my kids, bowling (they were much more successful at bowling than I ever was at any of the activities I competed in! LOL). Here is what I have learned about competing. In any given activity, there are basically three types of participants; casual, capable and competitive. The casual participants play for pure recreation, they could care less who wins, who loses, how good their equipment is, etc. This "competitor" has many other activities that they participate in, with no real preference for one or the other. Next there are those that are pretty capable and take the activity more seriously, they purchase specific, performance related equipment and spend more of their time practicing and honing their skills in order to improve and compete at a higher level, i.e they are committed to winning. They mig ht have one or two other activities that they also participate in. Finally, there are the "born to compete" folks who are passionate about their activity and it is usually the ONLY activity they actively participate in. They buy the BEST equipment, and their life is consumed by said activity. These folks are usually on the podium and willing to go to any lengths to be, "the best".

Herein lies the rub. These three "classes" of competitors all have uniquely different needs from their governing body and how their events should be run, yet they all compete in the same arena. It is virtually impossible to please them all (go figure!). In my experience, it best serves the particular sport/hobby to let the highest-level competitors actively work together to form the rules, regulations and formats of the higher-level competitions because they DO (generally) have the most knowledge and the most skin in the game ad are likely to be the ones who take it the most seriously. By doing this, there will ALWAYS be a certain group of folks that will cry "foul" and that it is "not fair" and it almost certainly creates discourse for the entire discipline in which they compete. This has built walls in many, if not most (all) of the organizations that I have been involved with at one time or another. It is the higher levels of all competitions where innovations (that we all get to enjoy eventually) are born, and where $$ are at stake. This is where sponsorships and professionals are born. This drives the manufacturers to be able to better their products, market them to us mere mortals, and make their profits. Like it or not, "fair" or not, it is just the way the world turns.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that just because one WANTS to compete at a national level, it doesn't mean they SHOULD. I believe our hobby has (and hopefully will continue to) provided many opportunities for us mere mortals to have fun competing at a more local level with a reasonable amount of travel and expense that is commensurate to our skill levels and investment of time and $$. My Dad taught me that the world is not necessarily "fair", and I have seen instances where someone had the natural ability to compete at the highest levels, but they just didn't have the resources (financial or otherwise) to be able to . Unfortunate for sure, but the world just isn't fair sometimes. One thing I have learned for sure, you can't please all of the people all of the time! I see more people these days that are absolutely intolerant to that concept and continue to fight for what suits them to the bitter end rather than join the collective fight for what serves the most people, most of the time and maybe suffer a little bit of personal sacrifice.

Astro

franklin_m

With respect to questions about competitions, increasing participation, etc. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the ability to compete is something that will draw new members, and thus a behavior we want to increase. This way we avoid the should there be competition or not, is it important or not, food fights.

Behaviorial research tells us that the only type of reinforcement that produces more of a behavior is positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement stops a behavior, but doesn't increase good behavior. I argue logistical hurdles, some categories dominated by sponsored flyers (drives cost to be competitive way up), time, distance to events, etc. function like negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement could be as varied as your imagination allows. Largely though, positive reinforcement is an "all of the above" effort.

So we need to find ways to minimize the negative issues and create new ways to provide positive reinforcement.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Another thing I've learned about competition lately is that each subsequent generation has less drive to compete, as they were raised being showered with participation trophies. When everybody is the same, why bother putting out any effort?

Developing a plan to attract/retain members that uses competition as an attractor, may not be a good model.

Astro

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

I agree with that. Most of the folks I hang with just want to fly and have fun. As soon as we started adding contests to our heli gatherings (auto rotation spot landings, that sort of stuff) they either complained or quit coming

franklin_m

For the record, I agree with both you and BC. There is less desire to compete. I went through the exercises above for illustration only. However, with decreasing interest in competition, the need for a central location to have them and the need to join AMA to do it, are decreasing as well. Thus the factor driving membership is collapsing more and more that membership grants access to the local field. And where you look at where AMA spends it's own money, that gets single digit percent of the dollars.

In business, we call that not matching resources to organizational objectives.

init4fun

I became very aware of this when my Son got into Karate as as a youngster . Kids who couldn't fight off Spongebob much less a real life attacker were given the same trophies/belts as the more accomplished kids , it wasn't who had the skills but whose parents were paying the dojo's bills

FUTABA-RC

A few years ago I understood that less than 5% of the AMA membership entered any kind of sanctioned event in any given year. This includes club Fun Flys.

Helis are a perfect example. IRCHA Jamboree gets several hundred folks. A few days later the Heli NATs might have 20.

But, having said that, it does not mean that we can, or should, disenfranchise the competition pilot. But competition is certainly not driving members to the door.

Desertlakesflying

My Feedback: (28)

This happens every time the "good ol boy" system is tried.

Honestly we'd be better off with something new because the AMA is about themoney not the people, which is why they allowed this drone crap to happen.

FUTABA-RC

I cannot say I disagree with this. I have long said that on Day One the AMA should have drawn a wide line in the sand and made clear that camera equipped multicopters that are gyrostabilized and GPS augmented are NOT the same thing, or hobby, as model airplanes. Both are good hobbies, but they are not the same hobby.

Hydro Junkie

The only problem was that the EC couldn't see anything but $$$$$$. Had they looked at the long term situation instead, they could have seen the issues, or should I say pitfalls and problems, that were going to accompany the drones. I can speak of the issues by just looking at what happened in Seattle right at the start of the "drone craze":

• One was flown over the Seattle Center, did laps around the Space Needle at 500ft, was used to video inside apartments a few blocks away and, when it was seen, the operator brought it back, packed up and headed home before the police could catch him
• One was flown over the Seattle waterfront where it was flown into the Seattle "Big Wheel". The owner didn't try to retrieve it but, rather, left it behind with a broken prop rather than be fined for flying it illegally

Both of these flights were in areas within a few blocks of FAA approved helipads and some of those were at medical facilities. Had the EC been paying attention to just THOSE TWO INCIDENTS that were shown on the national news programs, rather than just looking at $$$$, it should have been an easy call to say "We fly airplanes and helicopters, not those things" to the FAA and avoided the whole problem they are now dealing with.
The issues with what's going to be legal and what's not are the reason I have put all my aircraft on a "back burner" until it all plays out, probably in federal court

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Hydro, you could easily build, enjoy and crash those airplanes before this all " plays out ".

Hydro Junkie

I could, but why? You have been complaining about how your $10K worth of planes will be grounded by the FAA so, that said, why should I go out and buy the wood, radio gear, engines and everything else needed to finish my two Kadets and build my three gassers? I've already spent plenty on getting the plans printed, buying a cowl, cabane struts and canopy for my 68" Pitts M-12, not to mention the cost of printing the plans out for me 72" Katana and similar sized Extra. Common sense says hold off until everything is settled and, only then, go back to work on them. To do otherwise is to risk wasting more money on planes I may never get to fly