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FAA Test...AMA administer? And pigs might fly!

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FAA Test...AMA administer? And pigs might fly!

Old 02-22-2021, 03:42 PM
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franklin_m
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Default FAA Test...AMA administer? And pigs might fly!

FAA is clearly fast tracking the knowledge test, and despite their chest thumping about their influence over the past few months, the AMA got their fanny handed to them yet again. Per note 1 below, starting today the FAA is accepting formal proposals from those organizations desiring to be administrators of the test. Some key points that have got to be crushing to the AMA's dreams of sitting at the adult table:

Quick timeline, submissions due not later than 31 March
AT TIME OF SUBMISSION, must ALREADY have a SCORM 1.2 compliant Learning Management System
No modification of FAA supplied content
Must be ready to go live 1 June
Online only
Cannot retain Personally Identifiable Information
Must be free to all recreational flyers
Supplemental content requires FAA approval first
Supplemental content must not contradict regulations or statutes

This is yet another significant AMA loss:
  • - AMA wanted written test option, it's online only
  • - AMA probably can't spell LMS, let alone have one that's SCORM 1.2 compliant in 6 weeks
  • - AMA had dreams of offering test as benefit to members, but they have to offer FREE to anyone
  • - AMA can't even brand the materials or collect data to recruit members

Once again, AMA was playing marbles while FAA was playing 3D chess.

Note 1:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational..._test_updates/
Old 02-22-2021, 04:37 PM
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Propworn
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Does an AMA member need to pass a test as long as they are flying at an AMA site under the AMA umbrella and are a member in good standing? In Canada MAAC members do not need to pass any test only those flying outside the MAAC umbrella. I thought it was the same for AMA members. If AMA members are required to sit and pass said test I wonder how that will reflect the reciprocal agreement?
Old 02-22-2021, 04:59 PM
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mongo
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give ya 3 guesses, troll.

and yes ALL r/c pilots(over .55#) have to "sit" a test.

Last edited by mongo; 02-22-2021 at 05:09 PM. Reason: cover the 107 folks, too
Old 02-22-2021, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mongo View Post
give ya 3 guesses, troll.

and yes ALL r/c pilots(over .55#) have to "sit" a test.
I was hoping Andy had a sensible reply but I will take your reply for what its worth but then again Mongo is what Mongo does.
Old 02-22-2021, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Does an AMA member need to pass a test as long as they are flying at an AMA site under the AMA umbrella and are a member in good standing? In Canada MAAC members do not need to pass any test only those flying outside the MAAC umbrella. I thought it was the same for AMA members. If AMA members are required to sit and pass said test I wonder how that will reflect the reciprocal agreement?
AMA tried but their push to equate model aircraft with drones, which are beyond the reach of flying field rules, made that impossible. AMA
backtracked on that but too little too late.

AMA also tried going around the FAA by lobbying Congress directly with their ham-fisted forced membership scheme, which ended any privileged
position AMA might have negotiated for its members. In any case, with the FAA dictating the rules AMA has nothing of value to add (and never has).

Note that the MAAC exemption can be revoked at will by the Transport Minister.
Old 02-23-2021, 12:44 AM
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"Must be free to all recreational flyers" Heh! Heh! I'll wager that one burns the AMA the most.

Would appear the AMA has been relegated to the peanut gallery. Be interesting to see who steps up to offer the test? My money is on the EAA as one of them. Now if they only offered liability insurance for RC.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there some sort of time limit on these AMA sanctuary fields? Only a certain length of time in which they can apply for this status? And as sites are lost for whatever reason the number of these sites will eventually go down to zero. Forcing the AMA to play in the same ball park as the rest of us?

I see too where the FAA has released the schedule for RID compliance/implementation. Appears you guys got 2-3 years more or less. Wonder how many AMA Sanctuary fields will be around by then?

Last edited by Retiredat38; 02-23-2021 at 12:50 AM.
Old 02-23-2021, 03:05 AM
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Tyler Dobbs facial expressions at the beginning and end says it all ... This was yet another gut punch.

AMA is patting itself on the back for making the content easy, which is at best a temporary victory - rules say FAA can change the content at any time. "Celebrating" that they can add content? Curious, given they didn't want a test at all. They're grasping at anything to spin as a victory.

This is a huge risk for the AMA if they even try to be an Test Administrator. The reporting, record keeping, and security requirements are significant. Imagine the embarrassment of having their certification revoked. AMA can't get their EC minutes out on time. They send membership cards to wrong addresses. Etc. there's no way they have the discipline to run a system like this.

Last edited by franklin_m; 02-23-2021 at 04:24 AM.
Old 02-23-2021, 04:39 AM
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well troll, the law says EVERYONE has to take test, so,

YOU will be required to show proof of passing the test.
is that a simple enough answer for you.
Old 02-23-2021, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mongo View Post
well troll, the law says EVERYONE has to take test, so,

YOU will be required to show proof of passing the test.
is that a simple enough answer for you.
It's neither here nor there right now anyway.

Our Government won't even let the resident troll into our country.

When and if they do, looks like he will have to prove that he has some kind of knowledge, rather than just puffing out his chest and telling us all how great he is! LOL

Astro
Old 02-23-2021, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
It's neither here nor there right now anyway.

Our Government won't even let the resident troll into our country.

When and if they do, looks like he will have to prove that he has some kind of knowledge, rather than just puffing out his chest and telling us all how great he is! LOL

Astro
As you are probably aware, that is a two way street. The wife and I had a cruise to Alaska booked for last August, Canada shut it down since it departed out of Vancouver BC. Cruise was rescheduled for this July, Canada shut down all cruises until February 28, 2022. That literally shut down all of the cruise docks in Vancouver, Seattle and anywhere else in the Pacific Northwest. This has affected thousands of people, their jobs and their ability to have food and shelter. And to think, all the trolling "worm" is worried about is whether he will be required to pass a test to be able to fly at an AMA field or not. Seems kind of ridiculous since he can't even cross the border to begin with, this while others are worried about being able to just survive the winter. Can we say "pathetic"?

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 02-23-2021 at 07:07 AM.
Old 02-23-2021, 08:59 AM
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Yet another AMA forced membership/tool to generate contacts hope (administering the recreational test) squashed by FAA:

  • "Test Administrators are prohibited from charging a fee, either directly or indirectly (i.e. requiring membership) to individuals taking the TRUST (emphasis added)."
  • "TAs are not allowed to permanently store information on individuals taking the TRUST."
  • "Information on individuals taking the TRUST must be removed from a TA’s data servers or LMS account upon issuance of a TRUST completion certificate (emphasis added)."

Last edited by franklin_m; 02-23-2021 at 09:05 AM.
Old 02-23-2021, 09:42 AM
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Comment withdrawn. I don’t wish to be part of this trolling effort.

Last edited by ElectriMan; 02-23-2021 at 10:30 AM.
Old 02-23-2021, 09:57 AM
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You're right, it's not about the AMA. All that has been said is that the AMA isn't going to be one of the organizations that will be handling the testing because they would only want to give the tests to paying members.
It was suggested that the EAA would be one organization to do so, and rightfully so. Flight Test could be another, if they can come up with the capital to buy the required materials. There are other "aviation based" organizations that could also fit the FAA's requirements. The AMA just isn't one of them
Old 02-23-2021, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post

Note that the MAAC exemption can be revoked at will by the Transport Minister.
Absolutely as it should be. In both countries flying our models is a privilege not a right. Abuse the rules/understanding with the governing body you should loose the privilege to fly. Thank goodness MAAC had the foresight to advocate for members only. If you wish to enjoy the exemptions to the hard and fast regulations put in place by Transport Canada you will have to join MAAC and fly by MAACs rules and safety guidelines. Otherwise you have to fly by Transport Canadas rules including a testing proceedure. So you see there are two ways you can enjoy your hobby which leads to the MAAC motto "Join Because You Want To".


Old 02-23-2021, 10:19 AM
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mongo View Post
well troll, the law says EVERYONE has to take test, so,

YOU will be required to show proof of passing the test.
is that a simple enough answer for you.
Well Mango since things like drivers licenses and pilots licenses are recognized between the two countries/regulating bodies perhaps the governing bodies will recognize each others testing standards. If that is the case Im ready to go. As far as trips to the US essential workers get a pass on crossing the border. One can choose to fly to the US and even drive back. Last month we drove across to pick up a load of machinery and brought it back.
Old 02-23-2021, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
You're right, it's not about the AMA. All that has been said is that the AMA isn't going to be one of the organizations that will be handling the testing because they would only want to give the tests to paying members.
It was suggested that the EAA would be one organization to do so, and rightfully so. Flight Test could be another, if they can come up with the capital to buy the required materials. There are other "aviation based" organizations that could also fit the FAA's requirements. The AMA just isn't one of them
Interesting observation with zero basis in fact.
Old 02-23-2021, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
One can choose to fly to the US and even drive back. Last month we drove across to pick up a load of machinery and brought it back.
Sure, you can fly into Canada from the US BUT, according to Air Canada's own website:

New mandatory entry requirements into Canada

In addition to the pre-departure COVID-19 test, customers must take two COVID-19 molecular tests and stay in a government-authorized accommodation for up to three nights.
As far as driving across the border to pick up a load of machinery, that is a business trip and, therefore, falls under the "essential" category. Try that with your truck/camper pulling your cargo trailer loaded with aircraft and see how that goes
Old 02-23-2021, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Absolutely as it should be. In both countries flying our models is a privilege not a right. Abuse the rules/understanding with the governing body you should loose the privilege to fly. Thank goodness MAAC had the foresight to advocate for members only. If you wish to enjoy the exemptions to the hard and fast regulations put in place by Transport Canada you will have to join MAAC and fly by MAACs rules and safety guidelines. Otherwise you have to fly by Transport Canadas rules including a testing proceedure. So you see there are two ways you can enjoy your hobby which leads to the MAAC motto "Join Because You Want To".
That's maybe a pitch for your fellow Canadians, but being in such a sparsely populated country with an RC hobby less than a tenth
of the size of that in the US, there is no point to be made here regarding our situation other than just blathering on.
Old 02-23-2021, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Interesting observation with zero basis in fact.
OK, so enlighten us with some facts? Or another excuse. Either way works for me.

I for one don't see where the AMA could be prepared to do this unless they've been spending money and hiding it from the membership. Money they don't have and will never recoup since this service is to be FREE!

So the best the AMA should do is simply sit back and plan for when they're in a better position (fiscally) to apply at a later date. While not mentioned I suspect there will be opportunities at a later date. Just as with all the other FAA sanctioned test centers.
Old 02-24-2021, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Interesting observation with zero basis in fact.
Please enlighten us then! Just because you make a declarative statement does not make it true. Or will we be treated to more vague generalities, exactly as we've been every other time you're called to provide proof and you do not.

So does AMA have the cash reserves to go out and buy an LMS? They might if they'd slashed costs and stuck a fork in that money losing rag of a magazine decades ago. But no. As I've said before, the AMA EC's fundamental strategic blunder is they make decisions based on the assumption that everyone loves toy planes as much as they do. That everyone is just sitting around longing for the glory days of the 60's and giant competitions.

But more importantly, does AMA even have the staff discipline to meet the administrative and reporting requirements to administer tests (note 1)? Is AMA really willing to agree to FAA's conditions that nothing in the way of supplementary material can contradict FAA policy or regulation? Let me translate for you : that means no more "fly as a you always have" because that means in many cases exceeding 400 AGL. And, with note 1 below in mind, is AMA really willing to risk the embarrassment of having their testing authority removed because they can't get admin done on time? I mean ED clearly doesn't hold staff accountable for other deadlines, why would this be any different?

Note 1: Mind you, they can't consistently get EC minutes out on time. Can't remove expired NOTAMS in a timely manner. Send membership cards to the wrong people. Etc.
Old 02-24-2021, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Interesting observation with zero basis in fact.
So, give us the facts then.
But then again, WHY WOULD THE AMA WANT TO EMBARK ON A TASK THAT WOULD NOT BE A WAY TO GAIN MEMBERS OR CAPITAL? It just seems contrary to the AMA's standard operating procedures. The AMA has a history of butting heads with the FAA, wasting the funds in its treasury and not making sound financial choices. Everyone knows the AMA is all about profit and its own survival. The members, and R/C flying community in general, are nothing more than potential sources of capital to help make that happen.
Old 02-24-2021, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
So, give us the facts then.
But then again, WHY WOULD THE AMA WANT TO EMBARK ON A TASK THAT WOULD NOT BE A WAY TO GAIN MEMBERS OR CAPITAL? It just seems contrary to the AMA's standard operating procedures. The AMA has a history of butting heads with the FAA, wasting the funds in its treasury and not making sound financial choices. Everyone knows the AMA is all about profit and its own survival. The members, and R/C flying community in general, are nothing more than potential sources of capital to help make that happen.
The cost to set up the software and servers for this should not be prohibitively expensive, and if they (as a conduit for the test) can gain exposure for potential future members, then more power to them.

Hypothetically, if there were say, 1 million people taking the test, and 10% took through the AMA portal, that would be 100,000 potential new members. Even if only say, one quarter of them decided to join, that’d be 25,000 new members. At $75/each, that would gross 1.8m+ dollars into AMA’s coffers. Doesn’t sound like a bad investment to me, even if only half that number became new members.

R_Strowe
Old 02-24-2021, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Sure, you can fly into Canada from the US BUT, according to Air Canada's own website:

New mandatory entry requirements into Canada

In addition to the pre-departure COVID-19 test, customers must take two COVID-19 molecular tests and stay in a government-authorized accommodation for up to three nights.
As far as driving across the border to pick up a load of machinery, that is a business trip and, therefore, falls under the "essential" category. Try that with your truck/camper pulling your cargo trailer loaded with aircraft and see how that goes
Hey Junk read my post again slowly this time so you might comprehend what I posted. Did I refer to a flight into Canada? Nope. I will try and explain it to you slowly this time including example if that will help. Lets set the stage ok.
Someone we know has parents who live in Boston.
He lives and works in Toronto.
His mother is in poor health he hasn't visited since the virus started in earnest.
He had time off and wanted to visit them so he began to look in earnest how he could visit.
No compassionate exemption to drive across the border.
He could fly FROM ( read this slowly now pinky) CANADA TO A NEARBY AIRPORT IN THE US then rent a car to visit his parents.
As a Canadian citizen he could drive that rental car back to Canada and to Toronto but had to self isolate for 14 days.
He did this at Christmas and as we know restrictions have been changing from week to week and there is no uniform restrictions from country to country so you would need to do your research for up to date restrictions.

The machines were from a private seller in the US to a private buyer in Canada (ME) The items were pre-cleared through customs and import fees paid. A truck was rented my brother and I crossed the border no problem when we showed the paperwork prepared by my broker there was no problem getting into the US. Return to Canada was a piece of cake not even a 14 day self isolation required. We also stopped at my mail service in Detroit and retrieved some packages that they have been holding since the border closed.
It can be done but its a pita. I more than doubled my money and that is the only reason I bothered.
I am not a business I have been retired for a bit now and do this to fund my hobbies.

Junk feel free to read it several times if need be or get Franky to explain it to you.

Ya know something Junk why is it you guys don't seem to have much to contribute unless Franky is posting and when you post something that seems to be in your own words and your own comprehension ya get things all screwed up makes me wonder if Franky is your part time ghost writer.

Last edited by Propworn; 02-24-2021 at 08:16 AM.
Old 02-24-2021, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
That's maybe a pitch for your fellow Canadians, but being in such a sparsely populated country with an RC hobby less than a tenth
of the size of that in the US, there is no point to be made here regarding our situation other than just blathering on.
I have at times been very active within MAAC and know for a fact how the two organizations collaborate and in a lot of ways parallel each other, even to the point the wording is near identical. In dealing with Transport Canada MAAC chose a different approach. Part of that reason was exactly what you have pointed out above we are less than 13,000 members. Hardly in a position to demand anything. Also our resources hardly could provide the resources to challenge Transport Canada in the courts. Our only course of action could be cooperation not confrontation. The AMA seems to have opted for a more confrontational path. I never have said I agreed with that path.

You make comment about how our numbers are so low to you they seem insignificant however consider this. How does an organization with less than one tenth the members of the AMA successfully negotiate for their membership where the AMA did not?

I do not agree with the path the AMA has chosen never have however only a fool tears down the only organization they have to represent them without something in place to replace them. Even worse are those who do this without taking action not bitxhing to change things. The AMA detractors here are nothing but hot air and no physical substance in my opinion.

Dennis

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