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AMA Bashing is Pointless

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AMA Bashing is Pointless

Old 10-10-2021, 05:15 AM
  #376  
init4fun
 
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
Can you name one other organization that is representing the hobby that has had as frequent contact with the FAA and Congress? Any industry group? Can you name any individuals? .
I know of one individual who has done plenty of advocating with the FAA and the AMA, only to be rebuffed time and again by the AMA EC, and I believe he has contacted congress too. This gent does take the "hobby first" approach VS the "AMA first" approach, and he gets repeatedly kicked in the balls here and at other forums by the AMAish for his efforts. He's the guy who presents all of the nice charts & graphs with real world facts & figures supporting his position, perhaps you've read some of his posts? Now, seeing the resistance this gent gets from his fellow hobbyists for advocating for a fair system workable for all, why would any other individuals want to put their nuts in the vise, only to have the good ol boy network give em a big ol squeeze?

Yes we DO need a nationwide advocacy organization, and yes I'd really like to see the AMA be that organization, with the one change of the mission being "The hobby first" VS "The AMA first". Take care of the hobby, and the AMA will do just fine. "Throw the baby out with the bathwater" and all we'll have is an empty bathtub.......
Old 10-10-2021, 06:23 AM
  #377  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
I know of one individual who has done plenty of advocating with the FAA and the AMA, only to be rebuffed time and again by the AMA EC, and I believe he has contacted congress too. This gent does take the "hobby first" approach VS the "AMA first" approach, and he gets repeatedly kicked in the balls here and at other forums by the AMAish for his efforts. He's the guy who presents all of the nice charts & graphs with real world facts & figures supporting his position, perhaps you've read some of his posts? Now, seeing the resistance this gent gets from his fellow hobbyists for advocating for a fair system workable for all, why would any other individuals want to put their nuts in the vise, only to have the good ol boy network give em a big ol squeeze?

Yes we DO need a nationwide advocacy organization, and yes I'd really like to see the AMA be that organization, with the one change of the mission being "The hobby first" VS "The AMA first". Take care of the hobby, and the AMA will do just fine. "Throw the baby out with the bathwater" and all we'll have is an empty bathtub.......
Does that individual meet regularly with the FAA and with the Congressional representatives?

I am NOT dismissing Franklin's efforts to drive change. And while I am not always in complete agreement with him, I do believe he has the hobby's best interest at heart. But as an individual his voice in Washington is limited (as would any other single individual).

Let me be clear. I know that the AMA is far from perfect and needs to evolve (if it can). I just do not know of any other organization that is in position to represent us in Washington (i.e.; that has at least some access and is willing).

Perhaps a new group can be formed that could then carry the weight of numbers forward., but that is hard work and will take more than just a bunch of us squabbling on social media to get organized and built. Perhaps an industry coalition is willing to jump into the fray, but so far, hobby suppliers have been very warry of drawing lines between traditional model aircraft and the drone crowd (look what happened to Horizon when they made a comment in support of LOS operation). Short of someone like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk deciding to make this a cause, I know of no individual that can make sufficient noise in Washington to get any attention.

So we are back to riding the horse we have instead of the one we might want.
Old 10-11-2021, 06:30 AM
  #378  
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Originally Posted by FlightLine1 View Post
Then we have the chairman of the membership committee. So how many new members have you chased off this year with that attitude?

Yet another example of why the AMA is failing.

And BTW, I've been reading this drivel for some years. I just didn't bother to join until I retired and had more time. Though that's not the reason I joined since after this wonderful welcome I'm no longer sure why I joined.
I've not chased off a single one.

You don't know me from Adam. You've just come into a forum where many of us have discussed issues and gotten to know each others' personalities for 20 years. You come in here and start making judgement calls and regurgitating issues that have been discussed at length previous to your posting. That, my friend, is considered extremely rude. No introduction? No background about who you are and what your experience is? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you just jump in and start in with your words like drivel?

I would say that it is folks like you that are the problem. Instead of calling it, "drivel", why not be specific and point out exactly what is drivel and provide a reasonable argument as to why it is drivel? Otherwise, we will continue to get more of the same back-and-forth......

Astro
Old 10-11-2021, 07:10 AM
  #379  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I've not chased off a single one.

You don't know me from Adam. You've just come into a forum where many of us have discussed issues and gotten to know each others' personalities for 20 years. You come in here and start making judgement calls and regurgitating issues that have been discussed at length previous to your posting. That, my friend, is considered extremely rude. No introduction? No background about who you are and what your experience is? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you just jump in and start in with your words like drivel?

I would say that it is folks like you that are the problem. Instead of calling it, "drivel", why not be specific and point out exactly what is drivel and provide a reasonable argument as to why it is drivel? Otherwise, we will continue to get more of the same back-and-forth......

Astro
And you're NOT being judgemental? Really? Try again!
Maybe you should stop looking for so called AMA haters behind every new ID or post you disagree with. If you were indeed the expert you apparently think you are then I would think that after some 2,630 posts you would have solved all the problems. Again, drivel!
Old 10-11-2021, 08:18 AM
  #380  
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Originally Posted by FlightLine1 View Post
And you're NOT being judgemental? Really? Try again!
Maybe you should stop looking for so called AMA haters behind every new ID or post you disagree with. If you were indeed the expert you apparently think you are then I would think that after some 2,630 posts you would have solved all the problems. Again, drivel!
Judgment of ones words is all one can do on a forum when one doesn't provide any real context. What don't you understand or like about that?

You sound angry, chill out and join the discussion with some context and substantive information and/or new dialogue rather than obtuse statements.

Astro
Old 10-11-2021, 09:42 AM
  #381  
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Originally Posted by FlightLine1 View Post
Maybe you should stop looking for so called AMA haters behind every new ID or post you disagree with.
Um, , , FlightLine, our new friend, ya got it all wrong, your not talking to the people who look for "AMA haters", , , we ARE the people who the fervently pro AMA people* label as haters

* The "AMAish" as it were, aptly named by the late great littlecrankshaft.........
Old 10-12-2021, 11:28 AM
  #382  
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Actually the only mistake FlightLine1 made in joining the Forum was first not bowing down to the regular blowhards, kissing feet and asking "mother may I." Stirring up the Jackels is pretty easy here.

Otherwise his initial post was pretty straight forward and accurate, responses as well.
Old 10-12-2021, 12:49 PM
  #383  
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Originally Posted by Dick T. View Post
Actually the only mistake FlightLine1 made in joining the Forum was first not bowing down to the regular blowhards, kissing feet and asking "mother may I." Stirring up the Jackels is pretty easy here.

Otherwise his initial post was pretty straight forward and accurate, responses as well.
LOL!!

you are correct in that his first post was informative, as it provided a link to what the other member was looking for.

His next post made some wacky statement alluding that if the AMA were able to hold an Osh Kosh type event every year, the hobby would magically be saved, no regulations, etc., etc.

Laughable!

Astro
Old 10-12-2021, 01:33 PM
  #384  
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Originally Posted by FlightLine1 View Post
Since it seems the discussion is what the AMA could have and should have done, here are some numbers to consider:

AMA membership: Where is it now? 140,000?
FAA Drone Pilot Registration: Peaked just over a million and last I heard around 5 to 600,000
EAA membership: 200,000
General Aviation: 600,000
AOPA: 350,000

Now granted the EAA, GA and AOPA have a lot of their membership in common with each other. But take a look at what those organizations do and have done for their segment of aviation. Then judge for yourself whether or not the AMA is on par with them.

IMHO had the AMA a history of pulling off something like the EAA does every year in Oshkosh, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And quite possibly wouldn't have the new regulations we have. Or at least structured and implemented more to our liking.

Food for thought!
so how ever many years of National competition the AMA has had do not count as something like what the EAA does?

in reality, i don't think we can expect something as big as oshkosh to ever happen at muncie.
triple tree
rheinbeck
maybe at those places, but not at muncie.

Last edited by mongo; 10-12-2021 at 01:35 PM.
Old 10-12-2021, 01:47 PM
  #385  
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Originally Posted by mongo View Post
so how ever many years of National competition the AMA has had do not count as something like what the EAA does?

in reality, i don't think we can expect something as big as oshkosh to ever happen at muncie.
triple tree
rheinbeck
maybe at those places, but not at muncie.
The problem is a national competition is really only going to bring those that are competition flyers to that event. Oshkosh has participants that bring in everything from home builts to actual combat aircraft. Unlike Muncie, Oshkosh has something that will interest anyone that is into aviation. The fact that you can get up close and personal with the aircraft(touching is permitted, under supervision of owners in many cases), talk to the owners and pilots about the aircraft they brought, see the latest tech and learn about it from the "techreps" is just something you don't get at Muncie. There were even several You Tube pilots that were in attendance this year. I know one couple that posts videos of their adventures in a 1972 Cessna 310Q, Kevin and Jaime Thornton, attended this years event and even had their plane, N771BC, on display.
Click image for larger version

Name:	joy-thornton-exterior.jpg
Views:	4
Size:	668.1 KB
ID:	2270889
Just for the record, Kevin and Jaime take their flying very seriously, both being FAA air traffic controllers in the Chicago area. If you're interested, their channel is listed under 310 Pilot

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 10-12-2021 at 02:05 PM.
Old 10-12-2021, 01:47 PM
  #386  
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Nats
IRCHA (at Muncie) 600 to 1400 pilots some years
Joe Nall, 1400 pilots or so some years plus the place is full of spectators and families
AMA had a large presence at Air Venture this year

Thats just the examples off the top of my head
Old 10-12-2021, 02:42 PM
  #387  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Nats
IRCHA (at Muncie) 600 to 1400 pilots some years
Joe Nall, 1400 pilots or so some years plus the place is full of spectators and families
AMA had a large presence at Air Venture this year

Thats just the examples off the top of my head
Oshkosh had 608,000 this year
By comparison, the US National Square Dance Conventions had, for the years and locations I attended:
  • 2001 Anaheim CA 13011
  • 2005 Portland OR 8136
  • 2008 Wichita KS 5997
  • 2009 Long Beach CA 4912
  • 2011 Detroit MI 3737
  • 2012 Spokane WA 5545
  • 2014 Little Rock AR 3843
  • 2015 Springfield MA 4004
  • 2017 Cincinatti OH 3627
  • 2019 Atlanta GA 4068
These are all small when compared to the 1976 convention in Anaheim CA. That was the largest ever event with a whopping 39,796 participants. When you compare the conventions I attended to the 1976 event, you can see how badly the number of dancers has decreased. With that said, the smallest turnout was only 3169 participants for the 2018 convention in Kansas City MO.
Kind of makes your 1400 look insignificant, doesn't it? BTW, what do you consider to be a "large presence"? 25 to 30 or was there more?
Old 10-12-2021, 03:56 PM
  #388  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Oshkosh had 608,000 this year
By comparison, the US National Square Dance Conventions had, for the years and locations I attended:
  • 2001 Anaheim CA 13011
  • 2005 Portland OR 8136
  • 2008 Wichita KS 5997
  • 2009 Long Beach CA 4912
  • 2011 Detroit MI 3737
  • 2012 Spokane WA 5545
  • 2014 Little Rock AR 3843
  • 2015 Springfield MA 4004
  • 2017 Cincinatti OH 3627
  • 2019 Atlanta GA 4068
These are all small when compared to the 1976 convention in Anaheim CA. That was the largest ever event with a whopping 39,796 participants. When you compare the conventions I attended to the 1976 event, you can see how badly the number of dancers has decreased. With that said, the smallest turnout was only 3169 participants for the 2018 convention in Kansas City MO.
Kind of makes your 1400 look insignificant, doesn't it? BTW, what do you consider to be a "large presence"? 25 to 30 or was there more?
Even in “off” years, the national square dance association gets more attendance than what we see at “Taj-Muncie.” That should be telling AMA something about their “leadership.”
Old 10-12-2021, 05:09 PM
  #389  
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I was thinking it has more to do with the changing of scenery at each event more so than what the leadership does. Go to Muncie one year, you've seen it. If you look at my list of dance nationals I've attended, they cover many different parts of the country:
  • West Coast included Anaheim, Portland, Long Beach and Spokane
  • Plains States were covered by Wichita
  • Midwestern States were covered by Detroit and Cincinatti
  • New England was covered by Springfield
  • The South was covered by Little Rock and Atlanta(actually was in Marietta, just northwest of Atlanta but that's a minor point that makes no real difference)
The 2022 NSDC will be in Evansville IN, moving again to the Midwest. Something else the NSDC does is have tours of some of the local attractions that the participants can go on. These include the following tours, and then some:
  • Indianapolis Motor Speedway
  • various sites in Vincennes Indiana
  • various sites in New Harmony Indiana
  • Marengo Cave
  • Angel Mounds prehistoric site
  • Corydon Indiana
  • Squire Boone Caverns
I think the tours and other activities are what makes going to a NSDC a vacation worth spending the time to take as you can do as much or as little as you desire, participate or not and catch up with people you met at previous nationals. Go to an AMA nationals and it's all about one subject, the COMPETITION AND WINNING
Sorry, I'd rather go to an event that has more to it than getting a stiff neck from looking up all day
Old 10-12-2021, 07:06 PM
  #390  
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Just got to thinking. Since the wife and I drove to all but our first convention, it took driving through areas we had never been to before.
Prior to going to Atlanta in June 2019, I had never been to Georgia or Alabama or driven through Tennessee
Prior to going to Springfield in June 2015, I had never driven in Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Connecticut, or Ohio. All but Ohio I had not been to since June 1977
Prior to going to Wichita in 2008, I had never been to Kansas or driven through Wyoming and Colorado. As far as Wyoming and Colorado, other than flying in and out of Denver in December, 1982, I hadn't been to either state since prior to 1970.
Prior to going to Detroit in 2011, I had not been in North Dakota since July 1977 or been in the Province of Ontario, Canada
Kind of shows how much of the country I had not seen and probably wouldn't have gone to if I hadn't been going to a NSDC.
Old 10-13-2021, 04:36 PM
  #391  
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OMG!!!!
I expected to have several of the AMA faithful jumping down my throat at my blasphemy of my last four posts and yet, almost a full day later, not one word. Am I missing something or what? Am I totally confused on this topic or is it something else?
Old 10-13-2021, 07:07 PM
  #392  
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
I tend to agree. Again, not saying the AMA handled everything perfectly, but we could have ended up in a much worse place. I still know of no other organization capable and willing to advocate for us, so we need to keep them going, while pushing fo for changes.
Maybe not ended up in the worst place if you fly at an AMA field. If you don't, you are SOL. Thanks for your support of the hobby.

AMA is the de facto monopoly of model aviation. To "keep them going" doesn't take much work, that is until AMA becomes the next Montgomery Ward or
Encyclopedia Britannica. Then, no amount of work (like all the heavy lifting of chatting on a forum) will keep AMA going.

I don't know what it is you AMAbots don't get about the fact that AMA will disappear without RC flying outside of your bubble. Nobody gets in RC flying
thinking "Gee. I always wanted to join the Academy of Model Aeronautics".
Old 10-13-2021, 07:07 PM
  #393  
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Maybe they are finally coming to their senses?

Astro
Old 10-13-2021, 07:12 PM
  #394  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Nobody gets in RC flying
thinking "Gee. I always wanted to join the Academy of Model Aeronautics".
I actually DID want to join the AMA when I entered the hobby. I saw it as a worthwhile organization that had actually successfully advocated for modelers (by working with the FCC to protect our AM, FM and HAM frequencies) and were generally held in high regard and respected by everybody, not just modelers.

That is one of the reasons I continue to post in these forums. It's not to be a stick in the mud as I am constantly accused, it is because I want to be able to restore the pride I once had in being an AMA member.

Astro
Old 10-14-2021, 09:29 AM
  #395  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I actually DID want to join the AMA when I entered the hobby. I saw it as a worthwhile organization that had actually successfully advocated for modelers (by working with the FCC to protect our AM, FM and HAM frequencies) and were generally held in high regard and respected by everybody, not just modelers.

That is one of the reasons I continue to post in these forums. It's not to be a stick in the mud as I am constantly accused, it is because I want to be able to restore the pride I once had in being an AMA member.

Astro
I'll agree with Astrohog and ECHO24: Generally, I do not get interested in something because of it's advocacy group - but I expect any hobby will have an advocacy group worth joining. (I'm into Triumph cars - and a member of the VTR; I fly RC - and a member of AMA; I am an engineer - and a member of ASME; when I flew I was a member of AOPA. Etc.) Advocacy groups have two purposes, and make them (IMO) worth joining - practical reasons (lobbying, insurance, creation of regulations by experts) as well as social events (Muncie events, square dance contests, etc.). Advocacy groups are not perfect - many examples herein.
Old 10-15-2021, 08:28 AM
  #396  
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Default Bashing pointless...but insurance?

Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
I have not posted on RCU in a while, but I recognize many of the usual suspects from RCG. I suspect that some of you will also recognize me and will know that I get very frustrated with those who choose to express their disappointment in the AMA by portraying its members in a derogatory and even insulting fashion. There is just no place for that. But that is not what this post is about.

The truth is the bashing the AMA is totally pointless because within 10 - 15 years, the AMA will cease to have any significance. This demise will not be the fault of the AMA leadership, the FAA, Chinese drone manufactures, obnoxious club members, or any of the other usual suspects we argue about on forums like this. It will be due to the simple fact that the the last of the baby boomers (like myself) will be aging out of the hobby by then. There is simply no stopping this immutable fact of life. BTW, the same thing is happening to the hobby industry as a whole, not just RC model aircraft.

You can say that the AMA should be doing more to recruit younger members and be more forward looking like Flite Test. That is a fair call (an I have said many times how impressed I am with Flite Test), but then the AMA would not really be the AMA anymore, and most of the membership does not want that change. The vast majority of AMA members that I know all fit the aging baby boomer demographic. Most of them are quite happy with the status quo and with the overall AMA and club experience. They most assuredly do not want the AMA to become Flite Test. They want the AMA to more or less carry on with as little change as possible (holding onto whatever aspect of their youth that they can) until they are no longer able to participate in the hobby.

The vocal minority who post ceaselessly about the failings of the AMA may have many valid points (except when they turn into personal attacks), but the simple truth is, the larger organism that is the AMA simply doesn't care, because the majority of the membership doesn't care. They just want to enjoy their retirement without drama and stress and be left alone to fly planes at a club field. Most will not participate and engage in this debate at all, and have no interest in hearing what you might have to say about the AMA's many faults.

The AMA is not the future of the hobby, It will fade away over the next decade or so and nothing we say on a forum board like this will change that. Instead of fighting the tide, wouldn't that energy be better to put into building something new that fits the needs of the future? I now that is a lot more work, but ultimately, the easy road of bashing the AMA is just pointless.

OK, let the flaming begin
Although I have my own gripes about AMA (perhaps I should post separately), is there any viable alternative to getting insurance? Some commenters elsewhere have claimed that there could be coverage on a Homeowner's policy, but I suspect that it is almost always excluded (it is on mine, anyway). So what inexpensive alternatives are out there?

-- Aldo
Old 10-15-2021, 11:34 AM
  #397  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Maybe not ended up in the worst place if you fly at an AMA field. If you don't, you are SOL.
Why do you say that? You get a broadcast module, stick it on your plane and fly like you did before (that is unless what you did before is fly BVLOS).

OK, we don't know exactly what the size, power requirements, weight, and cost of the broadcast RID module will be, but based on available technology, I am still betting pretty small, not much power, very light, and very affordable (especially when the Chinese versions start popping up).
Old 10-15-2021, 11:39 AM
  #398  
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I keep hearing less than 50 dollars and the size of a small park flyer receiver. That's just the word on the street, nothing official from the AMA
Old 10-15-2021, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
I keep hearing less than 50 dollars and the size of a small park flyer receiver. That's just the word on the street, nothing official from the AMA
That's seems about right based on the type of technology likely to be needed. I saw a post a while back (I can't remember where), where someone identified a bunch of off the shelf components that could be used to piece together the core functions (GPS, WiFi, some sort of processor, etc) for something like $10 or $15 (don't hold me to an exact number, I can't find the reference). That was full retail for single unit purchases. Sourcing the components wholesale in quantity will likely be much, much cheaper on per unit basis.

The real point being here is that the tech required for this should be very affordable. You still have to integrate into a functioning package, test and certify it with the FAA, then market and distribute it, but I still would bet that it would end up being about the same size, weight, and even price range as a park flyer receiver.

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