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AMA Bashing is Pointless

Old 02-28-2021, 08:44 PM
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Okay guys, let's keep the thread on track. It's not degraded into an attack thread and I'm sure most would want to keep it that way. A few posts have gotten a bit "heated" and we don't need that since, as we all know, someone will show up to fan the flames
Old 02-28-2021, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Okay guys, let's keep the thread on track. It's not degraded into an attack thread and I'm sure most would want to keep it that way. A few posts have gotten a bit "heated" and we don't need that since, as we all know, someone will show up to fan the flames
Nothing heated here, let's not start labeling it as such. This is what a constructive discussion looks like. I know, it is a rarity around here.....

Astro
Old 02-28-2021, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
So I am curious. If the AMA had no impact bringing about the moderation to the RID NPRM, what is your theory as to how this was achieved?
The upshot is, if not for AMA's (Rich Hanson's) belligerence with the FAA modelers would have been in a position to negotiate an exemption from
remote ID (like Canada) for models lacking flight controllers or FPV. That arrogance stemmed from Section 336 and thinking they were untouchable

Hanson continued to defy the FAA on CBO/forced membership until the FAA finally issued a statement clarifying membership was not required
for 336, after that position for years informally. The FAA is the enforcement authority. Think about it. Go down to the police station and tell them you
believe that such and such law says this and that they should enforce it for you. Hanson wrote a very public article claiming that. The FAA finally got
fed up with it. You can also imagine what key lawmakers involved thought about AMA. The 2018 Reauthorization Act knee-capped AMA and the
hobby was left with a black eye with the people who mattered. AMA have since been left to begging for scraps from the FAA.

If none of that interests you, great. But don't try to dictate what anyone else should be writing about the AMA.
Old 02-28-2021, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
So I am curious. If the AMA had no impact bringing about the moderation to the RID NPRM, what is your theory as to how this was achieved?
I've never claimed the AMA had no impact. Since the AMA took what I and others here, an "alternate" course than what we thought was a better option, we will never know what "could have been" for sure, and it is impossible to prove what effect they did have. What I do know follows:

- AMA modelers and, "traditional" RC activities posed zero threat to the NAS and that can be proven by the 80+ years of history with essentially zero instances of interference. Because of this fact, it has always been my contention that the AMA should have pushed for, and been able to negotiate full exemption from any regulation. Instead, they chose to romance the drones, lump them (a completely different demographic) in with us, presumably to capitalize on "millions" of new members. By choosing this route, I contend that the AMA departed from their mission statement and sacrificed the vast majority of its current membership to cash in on the drone craze.

Regards,

Astro
Old 02-28-2021, 09:19 PM
  #30  
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The FAA considered over 50,000 comments from every stakeholder with an interest in remote ID, or with a peripheral interest like the EAA and AOPA,
all behind closed doors. So anyone is welcome to claim any theory they like since it can't be disproved.

RCGroups regulation forum appears to have run out of gas, no doubt due to similar inane, unanswerable, open-ended questions.
Old 02-28-2021, 09:35 PM
  #31  
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Over at RCGroups Model Aircraft and Drone Advocacy forum anymodeler has the last post (one of maybe hundreds) going on one week plus and
no response. The next thread prior hasn't been answered since February 12th. I think that solves the riddle of why anymodeler parachuted in here.
Nobody to talk to over yonder.
Old 03-01-2021, 02:58 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I've never claimed the AMA had no impact. Since the AMA took what I and others here, an "alternate" course than what we thought was a better option, we will never know what "could have been" for sure, and it is impossible to prove what effect they did have. What I do know follows:

- AMA modelers and, "traditional" RC activities posed zero threat to the NAS and that can be proven by the 80+ years of history with essentially zero instances of interference. Because of this fact, it has always been my contention that the AMA should have pushed for, and been able to negotiate full exemption from any regulation. Instead, they chose to romance the drones, lump them (a completely different demographic) in with us, presumably to capitalize on "millions" of new members. By choosing this route, I contend that the AMA departed from their mission statement and sacrificed the vast majority of its current membership to cash in on the drone craze.

Regards,

Astro
I hate like Hell to sound like a cheerleader, I really do, but here I gotta say;

!!!!! THIS!!! THIS!!!! A MILLION TIMES THIS!!!!!!

Astro not only hit the nail squarely on the head, he drove it in with one swing!
Old 03-01-2021, 05:13 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I've never claimed the AMA had no impact. Since the AMA took what I and others here, an "alternate" course than what we thought was a better option, we will never know what "could have been" for sure, and it is impossible to prove what effect they did have. What I do know follows:

- AMA modelers and, "traditional" RC activities posed zero threat to the NAS and that can be proven by the 80+ years of history with essentially zero instances of interference. Because of this fact, it has always been my contention that the AMA should have pushed for, and been able to negotiate full exemption from any regulation. Instead, they chose to romance the drones, lump them (a completely different demographic) in with us, presumably to capitalize on "millions" of new members. By choosing this route, I contend that the AMA departed from their mission statement and sacrificed the vast majority of its current membership to cash in on the drone craze.

Regards,

Astro
So what I have learned from some of the comments here is that the AMA fumbled this in the early days by attempting to coopt the drone crowd. I would like to learn more about this and see some evidence that supports that assertion. If true, then it backfired twice, since it seems to have alienated both a segment of traditional RC modelers as well as drone enthusiasts themselves (a group that I never fully understood since in the same breath they both accuse the AMA of not doing enough to protect the hobby while dismissing the need for the organization and it dues).

As you say, we will never know for sure how this would have played out had an "alternate" course been taken. However, when I listen to comments from Jim Williams (who certainly was in a position to know what was going on), I get the distinct impression that it was the security types who were actually running the table and that neither the AMA or the FAA themselves had much influence over the agenda. It is clear (based on the original NPRM language) that this group really was less concerned about safety than they were about accountability and control.

By all outward appearances, once the NPRM was released, the AMA had one of the most organized and consistent program of lobbying against the security driven approach. How influential this was, we cannot be sure, but the end results do speak for themselves in that we have a much more balanced rule. It is my opinion that the AMA contributed to this effort in a positive manner.

I do confess a certain apathy for the goings on in Muncie. Maybe I should take a harder look at that, but to be fair, I really don't care all that much about the magazine or the internal politics of the AMA. Could they use our money more wisely? Probably. Is that keeping me up at night? Not really. When compared to other forms of entertainment (like Netflix or any other subscription service), the dues are modest.
Old 03-01-2021, 05:25 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Over at RCGroups Model Aircraft and Drone Advocacy forum anymodeler has the last post (one of maybe hundreds) going on one week plus and
no response. The next thread prior hasn't been answered since February 12th. I think that solves the riddle of why anymodeler parachuted in here.
Nobody to talk to over yonder.
You are right that many of the "conversations" (using that term loosely) at RCG have "played out". Unfortunately, many of them have also devolved into personal attacks with derogatory tones. If you read any of my posts (including the one you mentioned), you will see that I do my best to maintain a respectful and balanced tone and avoid any personal accusations.

I also will mention that the tone we hear in our own heads as we type out a post may not always be the tone the reader hears, and attempts at humor or sarcasm may be misconstrued as derision. If I am guilty of such, I make attempts to apologize and/or correct my meaning.

Finally, while I do enjoy a spirited debate, I also resent any implication that I have some sort of nefarious intentions. The whole point of participating in a public forum such as this is to expose ourselves to a broad range of ideas and opinions. If we all just agreed with each other, what would be the point?
Old 03-01-2021, 07:00 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Nothing heated here, let's not start labeling it as such. This is what a constructive discussion looks like. I know, it is a rarity around here.....

Astro
Astro, I labeled it as such because there were a few posts that got a little "snippy" and I was only trying to calm things back down before it really got "hot". I am actually enjoying this thread and, with that being the case, I don't want it ruined because of a misinterpreted comment. That's all I was trying to do, not call anyone out but prevent a "boil over". Hope that makes sense
Old 03-01-2021, 07:50 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
You are right that many of the "conversations" (using that term loosely) at RCG have "played out". Unfortunately, many of them have also devolved into personal attacks with derogatory tones. If you read any of my posts (including the one you mentioned), you will see that I do my best to maintain a respectful and balanced tone and avoid any personal accusations.

I also will mention that the tone we hear in our own heads as we type out a post may not always be the tone the reader hears, and attempts at humor or sarcasm may be misconstrued as derision. If I am guilty of such, I make attempts to apologize and/or correct my meaning.

Finally, while I do enjoy a spirited debate, I also resent any implication that I have some sort of nefarious intentions. The whole point of participating in a public forum such as this is to expose ourselves to a broad range of ideas and opinions. If we all just agreed with each other, what would be the point?

"AMA Bashing is Pointless"


Not exactly "a broad range of ideas and opinions" is it.

It's in line with your last post on RCGroups lecturing the guy about the rules. Mostly just a bunch of verbiage, though,
pivoting off a comment as an excuse to go on and on and suck the air out of the discussion.



Old 03-01-2021, 08:12 AM
  #37  
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aymodeler in your OP you strike me as one who has already given up. And you're encouraging others to do the same. All I can say is if you want to bow out, that's your business. Just don't get in the way of those who aren't ready yet.

IMHO the AMA bashing was not originally intended as such. It was in fact meant to be a wake up call for the membership as to the direction the AMA was heading. I contend it continues to be intended as a wake up call. However it seems the vast majority of the membership simply does not care. And of those who claim to care, it would seem they think defending the status quo is more important than fixing serious problems.

It became bashing, again IMHO because the supporters of the "AMA business as usual" labeled it as bashing in their attempts to drown out the facts. And they flooded the forums with accusations, name calling, mis-quotes (why?), out right lies, moderator complaints, etc. In truth this "bashing" provided considerable factual data and evidence to support the contentions of those sounding the alarm. Evidence and facts, something I don't recall the opposition ever doing.

One only needs to look back into old issues of the AMA magazine, Feb 2019 issue of The Hill, video reports by AMA EC and others to realize, the AMA has attempted several ploys to:
1. Pull the MR Drone crowd into the AMA fold.
2. Force all recreational flyers to join the AMA to be legal.
3. Encourage violations of the law (Fly as you normally would, i.e. >400').
4. Dispense false information even after it was shown to be false. IOW, outright Lie.
5. And the list goes on............

I agree the AMA is finished. But that doesn't mean we should abandon them. If changes can be implemented then it would be far easier to start new with the existing AMA than it would be to start over from scratch. But that would make a number of people in Muncie quite unhappy. And I suspect that is the crux of the whole matter.

Last edited by Retiredat38; 03-01-2021 at 08:16 AM.
Old 03-01-2021, 08:14 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Astro, I labeled it as such because there were a few posts that got a little "snippy" and I was only trying to calm things back down before it really got "hot". I am actually enjoying this thread and, with that being the case, I don't want it ruined because of a misinterpreted comment. That's all I was trying to do, not call anyone out but prevent a "boil over". Hope that makes sense
Thank you Hydro Junkie, I appreciate your attempts at keeping this civil. I have been very comfortable with Atro's comments, as well as most of the others, and am enjoying this discussion too. I am trying not to respond to comments that take the discussion in that more heated direction.
Old 03-01-2021, 09:08 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Retiredat38 View Post
aymodeler in your OP you strike me as one who has already given up. And you're encouraging others to do the same. All I can say is if you want to bow out, that's your business. Just don't get in the way of those who aren't ready yet.

IMHO the AMA bashing was not originally intended as such. It was in fact meant to be a wake up call for the membership as to the direction the AMA was heading. I contend it continues to be intended as a wake up call. However it seems the vast majority of the membership simply does not care. And of those who claim to care, it would seem they think defending the status quo is more important than fixing serious problems.

It became bashing, again IMHO because the supporters of the "AMA business as usual" labeled it as bashing in their attempts to drown out the facts. And they flooded the forums with accusations, name calling, mis-quotes (why?), out right lies, moderator complaints, etc. In truth this "bashing" provided considerable factual data and evidence to support the contentions of those sounding the alarm. Evidence and facts, something I don't recall the opposition ever doing.

One only needs to look back into old issues of the AMA magazine, Feb 2019 issue of The Hill, video reports by AMA EC and others to realize, the AMA has attempted several ploys to:
1. Pull the MR Drone crowd into the AMA fold.
2. Force all recreational flyers to join the AMA to be legal.
3. Encourage violations of the law (Fly as you normally would, i.e. >400').
4. Dispense false information even after it was shown to be false. IOW, outright Lie.
5. And the list goes on............

I agree the AMA is finished. But that doesn't mean we should abandon them. If changes can be implemented then it would be far easier to start new with the existing AMA than it would be to start over from scratch. But that would make a number of people in Muncie quite unhappy. And I suspect that is the crux of the whole matter.
As I posted earlier, it was probably a poor choice of words to use as a thread title. My intent was to convey the message that a large portion of the membership simply does not want change (and I think you are echoing some of that here that too). Moreover, that membership is aging out over the next 10 - 15 years and the AMA will cease to have relevance regardless of change. I honestly believe that a new type of organization is needed for the future and that trying to recast the AMA into that new organization is probably going to be met with so much resistance that it would be easier to start from scratch. My assumption in making this statement is that the leadership is just a reflection on the attitudes of the membership as a whole, so even if there are a few voices trying to drive change, they will be up against a mountain of inertia. Maybe I am wrong about that.

Another part of my assertion as to why this change will be so hard, is because the AMA actually does deliver against the needs of the bulk of its membership. Again, they will see no reason for change. To be honest, I largely fall into that camp myself. That does NOT mean that I dismiss why others feel change is necessary and I am trying to keep an open mind about how a changed AMA could be a better experience. Also, as stated above, I feel that a new type of organization with new perspective and priorities will be needed to meet the needs of the future. As a minimum, it will be more open to what motivates younger entrants to the hobby, be more technically and socially diverse, and have an overall more flexible approach to the hobby.
Old 03-01-2021, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
I feel that a new type of organization with new perspective and priorities will be needed to meet the needs of the future. As a minimum, it will be more open to what motivates younger entrants to the hobby, be more technically and socially diverse, and have an overall more flexible approach to the hobby.
You're starting a new organization?
Old 03-01-2021, 10:05 AM
  #41  
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As some of us see it, a new organization isn't really what's needed. What is needed is an officer core that tells the members the truth and spends the available funds efficiently. What the membership is getting, now anyway, is a vaguely written report that spins everything into positive tales rather than giving the facts, kind of like the mainstream media when talking about the Biden administration and Kamala Harris. It's kind of bad when the headline is "President Biden prefers to have a fire in the Oval Office fireplace and even likes to put on a log himself" while not saying "Climate Czar John Kerry flies all over the world in his private jets, dumping 100+ times the pollution into the air as the average working person does in a year" while telling us that we need to go to all electric power from solar and wind sources. All of that while Texas is freezing due to frozen wind farms and snow covered solar panels. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. It's the old "Do as I say and not as I do" that makes many long term elected officials feel like they are someone special
Old 03-01-2021, 10:18 AM
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"younger entrants to the hobby, be more technically and socially diverse", i.e., the drone crowd -

anymodeler is just rehashing what what brought down AMA, going after this "this exiting new aspect of the hobby!" as it was called.
They don't want or need flying fields or an organization, and nobody wants them around. Bad news for model airplanes.
Old 03-01-2021, 10:42 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
"younger entrants to the hobby, be more technically and socially diverse", i.e., the drone crowd -

anymodeler is just rehashing what what brought down AMA, going after this "this exiting new aspect of the hobby!" as it was called.
They don't want or need flying fields or an organization, and nobody wants them around. Bad news for model airplanes.
I wouldn't say "the drone crowd" specifically since there are other ways to fly R/Cs that use non-drones.
Old 03-01-2021, 11:01 AM
  #44  
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The vision I am espousing is an organization that has a community that looks a lot like the community Flite Test has built but one that is built on a non-profit model like the AMA instead of a for-profit model of Flite Test. Such a community can have clubs and flying fields for those members that prefer/need that, but would not be rooted in that like the AMA is. More importantly, it would be appealing to a much larger cross section of hobbyists looking to have fun, some with drones, some with foamboard planes, some with EDFs, some with scale, some with FPV, some with combinations of all those concepts and things we can't imagine yet (which is the core of the Flite Test appeal).

I am not saying that is the organization I want to build or even go an join at this point in my life (the AMA model works fine for me right now), but if you look to the future, that is kind of organization that will appeal to the younger generation that are potentially entering the hobby now. Again, back to my original assertion that as us baby boomers age out, this will happen organically anyway. I just doubt that the AMA will survive long enough to transform into the digitally savvy, agile, open, self deprecating organization (with maybe a touch of irreverence thrown in) that will attract the next generation. Of course it will also need the leadership, structure, maturity, and the discipline to work with the regulatory entities like the FAA too (something I see the Flite Test guys struggling with but where they are making progress).

It's not what I am looking for, but it is my best attempt to describe what, in my opinion, the hobby will need in the future.

With regard to the AMA doing a better job with our finances, as I have said, you have no argument form me there.
Old 03-01-2021, 11:35 AM
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Vague, stream-of-conscious meandering is why RCGroups reg forum is at a dead stop going on 9 days.
Old 03-01-2021, 11:46 AM
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Are we really going to be worried about what's happening in another forum?
Old 03-01-2021, 12:13 PM
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Uhh, it's moved here, "it" being habitually commenting just for the sake of it. I didn't look down the whole page but every thread had
lengthy speeches from anymodeler. He apparently finally wore everyone else out and had the last word.
Old 03-01-2021, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Uhh, it's moved here, "it" being habitually commenting just for the sake of it. I didn't look down the whole page but every thread had
lengthy speeches from anymodeler. He apparently finally wore everyone else out and had the last word.
I don't know if that's good or bad. I know I have been accused of that in the other forum I have a membership in on more than one occasion. Was even told by a moderator that I had better stop posting or he was going to ban me as I was "annoying those that actually knew what they were doing". I didn't post anything for six months unless I had references I could quote at the end of my post. Funny thing was that annoyed them too
Old 03-01-2021, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Uhh, it's moved here, "it" being habitually commenting just for the sake of it. I didn't look down the whole page but every thread had
lengthy speeches from anymodeler. He apparently finally wore everyone else out and had the last word.
I have tried to stay away from making this a personal discussion, but you keep bringing it there. There was one thread with a sticky (so its at the top of the list) at RCG that I had the last post on. Plenty of other threads that are still very active there. Some I bowed out of a while ago because they already devolved. I stopped posting in those long before they were worn down (so no attempt at having the "last word").

I am trying to have a polite conversation, expressing my opinions and listening to opinions of others. I have learned a few things, and I hope others found at least passing interest in what I have had to say. Maybe I was a bit too provocative in a few my statements and I have apologized for that several times already. Nowhere have I made a personal comment or been dismissive of someone else's opinion.

Most here have made me feel welcome, and expressed interest in the exchange, and I appreciate that. I hope we can move past personal comments.
Old 03-01-2021, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
I have tried to stay away from making this a personal discussion, but you keep bringing it there. There was one thread with a sticky (so its at the top of the list) at RCG that I had the last post on. Plenty of other threads that are still very active there. Some I bowed out of a while ago because they already devolved. I stopped posting in those long before they were worn down (so no attempt at having the "last word").

I am trying to have a polite conversation, expressing my opinions and listening to opinions of others. I have learned a few things, and I hope others found at least passing interest in what I have had to say. Maybe I was a bit too provocative in a few my statements and I have apologized for that several times already. Nowhere have I made a personal comment or been dismissive of someone else's opinion.

Most here have made me feel welcome, and expressed interest in the exchange, and I appreciate that. I hope we can move past personal comments.
OK.

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