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AMA Bashing is Pointless

Old 03-01-2021, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I don't know if that's good or bad. I know I have been accused of that in the other forum I have a membership in on more than one occasion. Was even told by a moderator that I had better stop posting or he was going to ban me as I was "annoying those that actually knew what they were doing". I didn't post anything for six months unless I had references I could quote at the end of my post. Funny thing was that annoyed them too
Thinking about it, anymodeler, I believe, is one of the AMAers who got me kicked off of RCGroups for a negative AMA comment.
Old 03-01-2021, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Thinking about it, anymodeler, I believe, is one of the AMAers who got me kicked off of RCGroups for a negative AMA comment.
Sorry to hear that.
Old 03-01-2021, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Thinking about it, anymodeler, I believe, is one of the AMAers who got me kicked off of RCGroups for a negative AMA comment.
I've heard a lot of that kind of stuff about RCG and JRCBD(a boating site). As the saying went, if you don't stick with the program, you won't be in the forum. How about we just leave that over at RCG and in the past. This thread has had a good conversation running, don't really want to see it die over what happened on a different site
Old 03-02-2021, 07:21 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I've heard a lot of that kind of stuff about RCG and JRCBD(a boating site). As the saying went, if you don't stick with the program, you won't be in the forum. How about we just leave that over at RCG and in the past. This thread has had a good conversation running, don't really want to see it die over what happened on a different site
Alright, then for the topic at hand, this idea of another RC organization springing up is a pipe dream. The one monopoly AMA does have is
flying fields. AMA membership may decline but this is a decades-long process. In the meantime, nothing is going to change with the AMA.

So you're left with the 90% of RC outside of AMA, 90% of which are drones. With the FAA in charge and Remote ID, what are you going to organize?
Old 03-02-2021, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Alright, then for the topic at hand, this idea of another RC organization springing up is a pipe dream.
I am not so sure. There are organizations like the FPV Freedom Coalition (https://fpvfc.org/) and Flite Test Community that could serve as the seed for something like this. I will grant that Flite Test Community seems to have lost some steam, but the overall FT organization has a lot of organizing muscle behind it and if that got leveraged, they could quickly expand. Any such organization would look very different than the AMA (but that is the whole point, isn't it).

Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
The one monopoly AMA does have is flying fields. AMA membership may decline but this is a decades-long process.
Agreed, but there are also a lot of voices rejecting the club model all together. As you point out, the drone community does not rely on a fixed flying site, but there are increasing numbers of us "plank" flyers that are also turning away from club fields. Many are gravitating to smaller aircraft that can be flown from a soccer field or other open space. This is especially popular with the foam board crowd. I also know of a private group got together to lease their own flying site without an AMA charter (but I will grant that this is a rare ting).

If you live in an congested area like the Northeast, you may find your options limited, but there is a lot of open land in this country where finding a place to fly that is not an AMA club is not that hard. This is especially true if you are flying light weight electric stuff that does not depend on a well maintained runway (which is growing in popularity every day, especially with the younger crowd).

Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
In the meantime, nothing is going to change with the AMA.
Agreed, that was kind of my whole point.

Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
So you're left with the 90% of RC outside of AMA, 90% of which are drones. With the FAA in charge and Remote ID, what are you going to organize?
As the old saying goes, necessity is the mother of all invention. The AMA greatly expanded and grew out of the need for people to have places to fly. People have a lot more options today and are less dependent on fixed flying sites with improved runways, so once us old farts who fly traditional model aircraft die off, the need for clubs and the AMA will greatly diminish. But as government regulation continues to evolve and increase it will drive the need for advocacy organizations and I am confident that such organizations will find their footing when it does.

Last edited by aymodeler; 03-02-2021 at 01:40 PM.
Old 03-02-2021, 02:23 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
The one monopoly AMA does have is flying fields.
This is simply not true!

The AMA owns one flying site in Muncie. Period.

The ONLY thing that the AMA is to all of the thousands of other flying sites is an insurance policy.

Astro
Old 03-02-2021, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
This is simply not true!

The AMA owns one flying site in Muncie. Period.

The ONLY thing that the AMA is to all of the thousands of other flying sites is an insurance policy.

Astro
True, but I took Echo's meaning to be AMA chartered clubs have a monopoly on flying site, which may be true (to an extent), but even that is changing as people's needs for improved flying sites continues to change.
Old 03-02-2021, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
The AMA greatly expanded and grew out of the need for people to have places to fly.
This is not true either.

The AMA expanded and grew as the hobby grew with technological advances and as the American way of life became easier and we had more spare time and discretionary money to spend. During that expansion, the AMA DID grow with the hobby and did provide value to the modeler, helping to adapt the safety code, training outlines, competition organization and standardization, they successfully advocated on modelers' behalf by securing frequencies dedicated to flying RC when the FCC threatened to open up the bandwidths, etc, etc. The AMA had absolutely NOTHING to do with the development of the vast majority of existing flying sites, they were almost exclusively bought, leased and developed on the hard work and dollars of the individual clubs and their members.

Astro
Old 03-02-2021, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
True, but I took Echo's meaning to be AMA chartered clubs have a monopoly on flying site, which may be true (to an extent)
The only reason that the majority of flying sites are affiliated with the AMA is for insurance. The majority of the ignorant and apathetic AMA membership believe that the AMA is the only option for insurance, and the AMA loves that dialogue, as it is the last remaining reason they have any relevance whatsoever.

In reality, insurance can be had for a reasonable price for all flying fields outside of the AMA. The more flying fields get together and develop a simple set of rules and adopt a safety code, the cheaper that insurance becomes. The insurance portion of our AMA dues accounts for a very small percentage of the dues, with the rest supporting Muncie facilities, staff and executive pay, the magazine, National events and teams, etc.

Astro
Old 03-02-2021, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
This is not true either.

The AMA expanded and grew as the hobby grew with technological advances and as the American way of life became easier and we had more spare time and discretionary money to spend. During that expansion, the AMA DID grow with the hobby and did provide value to the modeler, helping to adapt the safety code, training outlines, competition organization and standardization, they successfully advocated on modelers' behalf by securing frequencies dedicated to flying RC when the FCC threatened to open up the bandwidths, etc, etc. The AMA had absolutely NOTHING to do with the development of the vast majority of existing flying sites, they were almost exclusively bought, leased and developed on the hard work and dollars of the individual clubs and their members.

Astro
That is fair and a much more accurate description. I was looking for a shortcut way to express that the need for the AMA grew as a result of the hobby growing (as your detailed explanation points out). While I agree that the private clubs did the hard work to develop their flying sites, the AMA helped enable the hobby to grow (for the reasons you stated).

I maintain that the AMA is probably not necessary for the continued growth at this point. Technologies have opened up that have made such growth more organic. However, the need for advocacy has not gone away and is likely only to increase. That was what I was trying to say.
Old 03-02-2021, 02:47 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
The only reason that the majority of flying sites are affiliated with the AMA is for insurance. The majority of the ignorant and apathetic AMA membership believe that the AMA is the only option for insurance, and the AMA loves that dialogue, as it is the last remaining reason they have any relevance whatsoever.

In reality, insurance can be had for a reasonable price for all flying fields outside of the AMA. The more flying fields get together and develop a simple set of rules and adopt a safety code, the cheaper that insurance becomes. The insurance portion of our AMA dues accounts for a very small percentage of the dues, with the rest supporting Muncie facilities, staff and executive pay, the magazine, National events and teams, etc.

Astro
No argument here at all. As I mentioned, I know of at least one private group that is doing that already.
Old 03-02-2021, 02:55 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
I am not so sure. There are organizations like the FPV Freedom Coalition (https://fpvfc.org/) and Flite Test Community that could serve as the seed for something like this. I will grant that Flite Test Community seems to have lost some steam, but the overall FT organization has a lot of organizing muscle behind it and if that got leveraged, they could quickly expand. Any such organization would look very different than the AMA (but that is the whole point, isn't it).



Agreed, but there are also a lot of voices rejecting the club model all together. As you point out, the drone community does not rely on a fixed flying site, but there are increasing numbers of us "plank" flyers that are also turning away from club fields. Many are gravitating to smaller aircraft that can be flown from a soccer field or other open space. This is especially popular with the foam board crowd. I also know of a private group got together to lease their own flying site without an AMA charter (but I will grant that this is a rare ting).

If you live in an congested area like the Northeast, you may find your options limited, but there is a lot of open land in this country where finding a place to fly that is not an AMA club is not that hard. This is especially true if you are flying light weight electric stuff that does not depend on a well maintained runway (which is growing in popularity every day, especially with the younger crowd).



Agreed, that was kind of my whole point.



As the old saying goes, necessity is the mother of all invention. The AMA greatly expanded and grew out of the need for people to have places to fly. People have a lot more options today and are less dependent on fixed flying sites with improved runways, so once us old farts who fly traditional model aircraft die off, the need for clubs and the AMA will greatly diminish. But as government regulation continues to evolve and increase it will drive the need for advocacy organizations and I am confident that such organizations will find their footing when it does.
Advocate for what?






Old 03-02-2021, 03:12 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
This is simply not true!

The AMA owns one flying site in Muncie. Period.

The ONLY thing that the AMA is to all of the thousands of other flying sites is an insurance policy.

Astro
Exactly, good luck getting club fields to drop their AMA membership, i.e., AMA has a monopoly on flying fields.

Your objection brings up the best way to twist an AMA diehard into knots: say AMA fields are "sanctioned". They'll argue till
they're blue in the face that that's not the case. (AMA wants all the credit with no responsibility)
Old 03-02-2021, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
They'll argue till they're blue in the face that that's not the case.
That only rings true for the few die-hard, outspoken AMA shills on the forums. As aymodeler noted previously, and as my experience has shown, if asked, the majority of AMA members at the field will state insurance as the first reason for being an AMA member. The AMA has done a good job distributing their Kool-Aid. Actually advocating for its membership? not so much.

Astro
Old 03-02-2021, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
I maintain that the AMA is probably not necessary for the continued growth at this point.
This is yet another fallacy propagated by the AMA shills and execs. "We MUST grow the hobby!"

Our hobby is how some choose to use excess money and time. Does anyone ever stop and ask, "Why? Why MUST we grow the hobby?" Who does growing the hobby serve? The AMA and the manufacturers, PERIOD.

I was drawn into this hobby for my love of all things aviation and the urge and ability to create something with my own two hands. Once I had built my first plane and took it to the club field, I also found the joy of camaraderie with others who share the same passion and that, also, became a "part" of the hobby for me. As my skills and knowledge progressed, I also found a passion for helping others to be successful and enjoy the hobby and that became a part of the hobby to me as well.

I don't think that my experience is a whole lot different than the majority of members, therefore, it is my conclusion and belief that it is the members' and the clubs' responsibility to be the avenue for "growth", or at least provide a positive environment for the beginner to engage and be positive ambassadors for our hobby where the general public is involved and it is the responsibility of the AMA to support that membership and those clubs in those endeavors, working on our behalf to advocate our great hobby to the powers that be in order to assure that we can thrive and continue to enjoy our flying privilege's as we have for generations. In that model, growth will happen organically, by attracting folks who are genuinely interested in and passionate about the hobby, not because, "I need insurance to fly", or because they want access to telemedicine, etc, etc. It insures that we have an active, interested and engaged membership, whether it be 100,000 or 1,000,000 strong.

just my humble $.02

Astro
Old 03-02-2021, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
That only rings true for the few die-hard, outspoken AMA shills on the forums. As aymodeler noted previously, and as my experience has shown, if asked, the majority of AMA members at the field will state insurance as the first reason for being an AMA member. The AMA has done a good job distributing their Kool-Aid. Actually advocating for its membership? not so much.

Astro
I was referring to the "sanctioned/chartered" kerfuffle.
Old 03-02-2021, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Advocate for what?
Advocate for our position with government regulators, be the FAA, the FCC, homeland security whoever.
Old 03-02-2021, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
I was referring to the "sanctioned/chartered" kerfuffle.
Which simply means that they send $$ to the mothership for insurance and are bound to follow the AMA safety code, which, let's face it, is only there for liabilities' sake, because we all know (and countless examples have been posted) that the AMA does not enforce it, they leave it up to the individual clubs, some of which take it more seriously than others.

And, before our hot-shot competition type jump in here and correct me, I should mention that it also allows said clubs to have, "AMA-sanctioned" events and contests.

Astro
Old 03-02-2021, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by aymodeler View Post
Advocate for our position with government regulators, be the FAA, the FCC, homeland security whoever.
And what position is that?
Old 03-02-2021, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Which simply means that they send $$ to the mothership for insurance and are bound to follow the AMA safety code, which, let's face it, is only there for liabilities' sake, because we all know (and countless examples have been posted) that the AMA does not enforce it, they leave it up to the individual clubs, some of which take it more seriously than others.

And, before our hot-shot competition type jump in here and correct me, I should mention that it also allows said clubs to have, "AMA-sanctioned" events and contests.

Astro
There is no practical difference between "sanctioned" or "chartered" regarding clubs, legally or otherwise. I don't know where it came from in AMA but
my guess is someone there thought the term "sanctioned" implied some kind of responsibility, something that AMA runs away from like a scalded cat.
Old 03-02-2021, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
There is no practical difference between "sanctioned" or "chartered" regarding clubs, legally or otherwise. I don't know where it came from in AMA but
my guess is someone there thought the term "sanctioned" implied some kind of responsibility, something that AMA runs away from like a scalded cat.
There are AMA chartered clubs and AMA sanctioned events. Most AMA members do not know the difference.

Astro
Old 03-02-2021, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
There are AMA chartered clubs and AMA sanctioned events. Most AMA members do not know the difference.

Astro
sanction
1. give official permission or approval for (an action).

AMA club activities are "sanctioned" if they follow AMA rules.
Old 03-02-2021, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
sanction
1. give official permission or approval for (an action).

AMA club activities are "sanctioned" if they follow AMA rules.
OK. Not sure what your point is?
Old 03-02-2021, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
OK. Not sure what your point is?
It grew out of you correcting me on whether AMA had a monopoly on AMA fields. Just another exercise in semantics.
What I'm more interested in is what policies anymodeler thinks we need another RC organization for.

Last edited by ECHO24; 03-02-2021 at 06:04 PM.
Old 03-02-2021, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
It grew out of you correcting me on whether AMA had a monopoly on AMA fields. Just another exercise in semantics.
What I'm more interested in is what policies anymodeler thinks we need another RC organization for.
I hope you didn't take it personally. The reason I pointed it out and wanted to clarify is because there always seems to be confusion regarding this and I think it is very important that we all have the same understanding of the basic facts and realities surrounding the AMA and it's relationship to clubs.

As has been discussed at length, the common narrative is that, somehow, the AMA "owns" the clubs and the real estate they operate on. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The AMA exists BECAUSE of the clubs and members, not the other way around.

Astro

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