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RDQ Lawsuit vs FAA - be careful what you ask for...

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RDQ Lawsuit vs FAA - be careful what you ask for...

Old 12-25-2021, 07:04 AM
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franklin_m
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Default RDQ Lawsuit vs FAA - be careful what you ask for...

Race Day Quads (RDQ) case vs FAA came up for oral arguments not too long ago. It will be really interesting to see how this shakes out. One of my other hobbies is following court cases at the Supreme Court. There's a great podcast (Oyez) that publishes SCOTUS oral arguments about a week after they're made. I like to then compare what I hear vs. what comes out in rulings - especially so in cases involving something with which I've got experience. Things like search and seizure for example.

So I've listened to the RDQ case audio three times so far. Nobody can predict what the court will do, but I think this could turn out to be a case just like the last time FAA was challenged. A temporary win at best. Except in this case, RDQ caused the court to ask some questions that could show up in the ruling in a way that hurts long term.

By this, I mean the RDQ pursuing a right to privacy approach in their case. Imagine if the court throws out the RID rule based in whole or in part on privacy. That would then establish that everyone enjoys that same right. So now any neighbor of a FRIA can easily assert that overflights from the FRIA are violating their privacy. Similarly, if part of the ruling requires FAA to define navigable airspace, that would result in a patchwork of rules below it. Imagine all the local governments and agencies that will want to have a piece of deciding what happens in airspace below the navigable limit. One can easily imagine any number of places where people can fly now suddenly being off limits.

Be careful what we wish for....
Old 12-25-2021, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
That would then establish that everyone enjoys that same right. So now any neighbor of a FRIA can easily assert that overflights from the FRIA are violating their privacy. ....
Hi Franklin, As it stands now, my "FRIA" is the club I belong to. Thankfully, there are only neighbors adjacent to one side of the field. Anytime they so much as see the shadow of a model airplane that has strayed too close they call the cops, we get a visit and are told to stay on our side of the tree line, and the club safety officer puts out an angry notice that no one is allowed to fly beyond the trees on that side of the field. I don't see how any of this will change no matter whose privacy rights are being asserted, as we aren't now allowed to overfly the verbotten area already ? I guess what i'm saying here is that even before privacy was the issue of overflights, safety was already cited as the reason for not overflying uninvolved people/property, and it's specifically spelled out in our AMA safety code that such overflights flat out aren't allowed.
Old 12-25-2021, 08:13 AM
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Init, excellent post. As we know, any club field that has neighbors will have no fly zones. I’m not going to attempt to BS anyone and claim that overflights never happen however there is framework at every club field I have ever flown at. In fact when I am a guest at a club site I specifically ask about the no fly zones. As you stated we already have rules that deal with overflights and I would venture that anyone who frequents club sites have seen the overflight rules enforced. The posted picture is the field where I fly sailplanes. As you can see they are quite serious about the no fly zone. Being a sailplane field one typically follows the thermal as they fly. Of course if you happen to flying in a contest, are a bit low and have a fair amount of time left it’s a bit difficult to break off as the thermal travels into the no fly zone. In the two years I have flown at that site I have seen flight scores zeroed for guys wandering into the no fly zone twice. Note that is twice in two years that cover thousands of flights that occurred while I was on site. The notion that overflights are happening rampant at every club field across the country is hardly believable. Simply no supporting data.


Old 12-25-2021, 09:23 AM
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franklin_m
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Hi Franklin, As it stands now, my "FRIA" is the club I belong to. Thankfully, there are only neighbors adjacent to one side of the field. Anytime they so much as see the shadow of a model airplane that has strayed too close they call the cops, we get a visit and are told to stay on our side of the tree line, and the club safety officer puts out an angry notice that no one is allowed to fly beyond the trees on that side of the field. I don't see how any of this will change no matter whose privacy rights are being asserted, as we aren't now allowed to overfly the verbotten area already ? I guess what i'm saying here is that even before privacy was the issue of overflights, safety was already cited as the reason for not overflying uninvolved people/property, and it's specifically spelled out in our AMA safety code that such overflights flat out aren't allowed.
Don't doubt this is the case at a number of places. But my point is that if the court's action creates or encourages creation of a defined airspace property right, it'll be much easier to enforce. Secondly, I don't know that majority of clubs are as compliant with overflight issue. If memory serves, the rule isn't exactly restrictive - it's a "should avoid" type language rather than a "shall not" language. The latter is much more enforceable than the former.

I think it'll be interesting to see how this sorts out. I maintain that it may creat a worse situation than just accepting RID as written.
Old 12-25-2021, 09:28 AM
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That's twice in 2 years at events. I would imagine that actual events only happen a couple times a year, and that the overwhelming majority of flights at that field take place during "regular" flying where the flight rules are self-regulated and when no-fly-zone incursions are not officially logged. I wonder how many incursions per year there really are?

It doesn't really matter, with the FAA regs and development ever encroaching on our flying sites, it is clear that the number of approved flying sites will rapidly decline. It will be interesting to see how effective the AMA will be in protecting our flying sites.

Astro
Old 12-25-2021, 09:29 AM
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That was my personal assertation all along.
Old 12-25-2021, 09:43 AM
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Would've been much easier for the AMA to carve out an exemption for us dinosaurs a decade ago by using the good ole boy and good cop approach, utilizing our prior track record and good relations with the Feds, rather than try to capitalize on the drones and try and claim we have some "right" to fly our toys.

Astro
Old 12-25-2021, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
That's twice in 2 years at events. I would imagine that actual events only happen a couple times a year, and that the overwhelming majority of flights at that field take place during "regular" flying where the flight rules are self-regulated and when no-fly-zone incursions are not officially logged. I wonder how many incursions per year there really are?

It doesn't really matter, with the FAA regs and development ever encroaching on our flying sites, it is clear that the number of approved flying sites will rapidly decline. It will be interesting to see how effective the AMA will be in protecting our flying sites.

Astro

Posts like this is where you and I go off the rails. Rather than ask about the field schedule you make assumptions. We really only fly April through September. The club is very contest oriented and hold events virtually every weekend. The reason for that schedule is the amount of different sailplanes. We have open class, ALES, RES and DLG. Each segment has their own contest each month. The only “ normal “ flying is done on Thursdays ( agreement with the city ) and is called “ Fossil fly “ which is intended to give the retired and non competitive guys their own day. Since the Thursday guys aren’t chasing points there is no benefit to flying over the no fly zones. Like I said earlier, not trying to BS anyone and say flying out of bounds doesn’t happen, just stating that it is not as big an issue as some would like us to believe and there are club level rules in affect and I have witnessed them being enforced.
Old 12-25-2021, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Posts like this is where you and I go off the rails. Rather than ask about the field schedule you make assumptions. We really only fly April through September. The club is very contest oriented and hold events virtually every weekend. The reason for that schedule is the amount of different sailplanes. We have open class, ALES, RES and DLG. Each segment has their own contest each month. The only “ normal “ flying is done on Thursdays ( agreement with the city ) and is called “ Fossil fly “ which is intended to give the retired and non competitive guys their own day. Since the Thursday guys aren’t chasing points there is no benefit to flying over the no fly zones. Like I said earlier, not trying to BS anyone and say flying out of bounds doesn’t happen, just stating that it is not as big an issue as some would like us to believe and there are club level rules in affect and I have witnessed them being enforced.
No need for you to go off the rails! I made an assumption based on my experience that I've never seen a club that hold events every weekend during flying season. Apparently there is one. You set the record straight. No need for you to go off the rails, that is how adults have discussions.

Astro
Old 12-25-2021, 01:11 PM
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Just for the record, if you wish to continue “ adult “ conversations perhaps not make assumptions and value others experience as much as you would like them to value yours.
Old 12-25-2021, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Just for the record, if you wish to continue “ adult “ conversations perhaps not make assumptions and value others experience as much as you would like them to value yours.
I really don't appreciate your subtle jabs and to ask me to not make assumptions is just a ridiculous extension of your narcissism. Nowhere did I mention that my experience is any more valuable than others. My experience is my experience, that is all.

Last time I checked, you are not in charge of what constitutes an adult discussion. Let's just leave that up to each other and we will see who can and who cannot.

Astro
Old 12-25-2021, 04:01 PM
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Okay guys, KNOCK IT OFF!!!!
Up until the last two posts, this had been a nice and civil thread. The last two posts weren't needed or wanted'. In fact, as I read the two previous posts:
  • Speed got a little snippy with the first sentence and then "civilly" went over how the club and field handle flying.
  • Astro then, to paraphrase, said I stand corrected
Should have been the end of it right there, but no. Speed had to throw a cheap shot and Astro had to reply. This is a textbook example of how threads go off the rails until they become a "train wreck". How about EVERYONE leave the cheap shots in the closet for the rest of the holiday season and maybe for the next year as well. I know it is possible if everyone wants to put in the effort
Old 12-25-2021, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Okay guys, KNOCK IT OFF!!!!
Up until the last two posts, this had been a nice and civil thread. The last two posts weren't needed or wanted'. In fact, as I read the two previous posts:
  • Speed got a little snippy with the first sentence and then "civilly" went over how the club and field handle flying.
  • Astro then, to paraphrase, said I stand corrected
Should have been the end of it right there, but no. Speed had to throw a cheap shot and Astro had to reply. This is a textbook example of how threads go off the rails until they become a "train wreck". How about EVERYONE leave the cheap shots in the closet for the rest of the holiday season and maybe for the next year as well. I know it is possible if everyone wants to put in the effort
As I have stated numerous times, I am not here to argue. I will, however, engage when engaged. Speed likes to cry victim and cast aspersions on me, report me to moderation, etc., but here is a prime example of Speed being the instigator. If he wants to cast stones, I will kindly return the volley, hence the last sentence of my last post. I refuse to allow him to assert that I am somehow the bad guy. Time will tell and the proof is always in the pudding.

Astro
Old 12-26-2021, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
The posted picture is the field where I fly sailplanes. As you can see they are quite serious about the no fly zone. Being a sailplane field one typically follows the thermal as they fly. Of course if you happen to flying in a contest, are a bit low and have a fair amount of time left it’s a bit difficult to break off as the thermal travels into the no fly zone. In the two years I have flown at that site I have seen flight scores zeroed for guys wandering into the no fly zone twice. Note that is twice in two years that cover thousands of flights that occurred while I was on site. The notion that overflights are happening rampant at every club field across the country is hardly believable. Simply no supporting data.
I was looking for a little more information about that site. I used AMA club finder to search for sites within 25 miles of "St. Paul" Oregon (listed address for the St. Paul Rodeo - shown in photo - is Malo Ave St. Paul OR), and nothing came up within five miles. I checked the ones outside that, and don't find any with locations corresponding to the photo.

Might you be willing to share the name of this AMA club?
Old 12-26-2021, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Okay guys, KNOCK IT OFF!!!!
Up until the last two posts, this had been a nice and civil thread. The last two posts weren't needed or wanted'. In fact, as I read the two previous posts:
  • Speed got a little snippy with the first sentence and then "civilly" went over how the club and field handle flying.
  • Astro then, to paraphrase, said I stand corrected
Should have been the end of it right there, but no. Speed had to throw a cheap shot and Astro had to reply. This is a textbook example of how threads go off the rails until they become a "train wreck". How about EVERYONE leave the cheap shots in the closet for the rest of the holiday season and maybe for the next year as well. I know it is possible if everyone wants to put in the effort
Does this mean in other topics someone intends to lead by example?
Old 12-26-2021, 06:48 AM
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LOL, I would if I trusted your intentions. Helping you create issues for one of my clubs is not in the cards. I expect that if I asked you about your local club that is so poorly run or ask for your AMA number I would either get the same or perhaps no response at all.
Old 12-26-2021, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Does this mean in other topics someone intends to lead by example?

Don’t count on it. Notice that this response is somewhat bias. “ Speedy had to throw in a cheap shot “ which completely disregards Astro’s earlier and first cheap shot of the thread “ that is how adults have conversations “. It seems that some in this forum can throw around insults and name calling all they want but can’t take the heat when the tables are turned.
Old 12-26-2021, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Does this mean in other topics someone intends to lead by example?
I've been doing exactly this for a while now, having tired of responding to taunts like "Grue" and "Minions", in an attempt to elevate the discourse here beyond the petty back & forth bickering, to pretty much no avail.

So Dennis, are you now planning to be one of the cordial posters here and leave the antagonizing posts behind?

I can't recall which thread it was that finally made me see how foolish it looks for a bunch of old men to be trying to "one up" each other with such insults, If I have nothing constructive or informative to add I've remained silent.

So call me "leading by example", and still hoping to see how many of my fellow AMA forum posters will actually follow that lead.............

Old 12-26-2021, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Don’t count on it. Notice that this response is somewhat bias. “ Speedy had to throw in a cheap shot “ which completely disregards Astro’s earlier and first cheap shot of the thread “ that is how adults have conversations “. It seems that some in this forum can throw around insults and name calling all they want but can’t take the heat when the tables are turned.
LOL. Coming from the mouth of the horse who does anything in their power to have others' voices silenced!

You are a despicable human being.

Astro
Old 12-26-2021, 07:49 AM
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Never promised a rose garden as Popeye once said "I yam what I yam". As far as leading by example all I can say is time will tell. LOL
Astro can't you find a new word for the day dithpicable is getting a little long in the tooth

Last edited by Propworn; 12-26-2021 at 07:57 AM.
Old 12-26-2021, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
I've been doing exactly this for a while now, having tired of responding to taunts like "Grue" and "Minions", in an attempt to elevate the discourse here beyond the petty back & forth bickering, to pretty much no avail.

So Dennis, are you now planning to be one of the cordial posters here and leave the antagonizing posts behind?

I can't recall which thread it was that finally made me see how foolish it looks for a bunch of old men to be trying to "one up" each other with such insults, If I have nothing constructive or informative to add I've remained silent.

So call me "leading by example", and still hoping to see how many of my fellow AMA forum posters will actually follow that lead.............

Init, I applaud your efforts but aren’t you forgetting comments such as “ Narcissistic, delusional, logical fallacies, 5 digit nobility etc”? In order to have peace and meaningful conversations BOTH sides need to drop the immature crap.
Old 12-26-2021, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
LOL. Coming from the mouth of the horse who does anything in their power to have others' voices silenced!

You are a despicable human being.

Astro

Unless you have actual evidence to that fact you’re just talking out your butt again. You require evidence with claims you don’t agree with right? How about you walk the walk you talk!
Old 12-26-2021, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Unless you have actual evidence to that fact you’re just talking out your butt again. You require evidence with claims you don’t agree with right? How about you walk the walk you talk!
You are so punch-drunk on your own kool-aid, that you can't see the forest for the trees. Any normal, level-headed adult that has read all of your posts, clearly sees your pattern and MO of getting revenge on those who have made you and your opinions look so silly. You can rant and rave and stutter and stammer all you want, the truth is all in the written history of these threads. You have nobody to blame but yourself, Speed, it's all there for everyone to read. LOL

Astro
Old 12-26-2021, 08:01 AM
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I come here with hope to learn something that I might not know about but in just a few posts it becomes this kind of pathetic bickering.

Thanks guys.
Old 12-26-2021, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Init, I applaud your efforts but aren’t you forgetting comments such as “ Narcissistic, delusional, logical fallacies, 5 digit nobility etc”? In order to have peace and meaningful conversations BOTH sides need to drop the immature crap.
What words do YOU prefer? Those are all words that mature adults use to describe actual things. Shall I post the words you have used?

Keep posting, Speed, you just dig a deeper hole for yourself! The more you type, the more you show your true colors and true, shallow agenda!

Astro

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