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FAA FOIA Request Results

Old 04-04-2022, 12:03 PM
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franklin_m
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
The AMA agreed to the AMA discount but wanted credit as a supporter which was refused, so they did not follow through with it (emphasis added).
Please cite proof for the allegation above that's highlighted in bold italics?


Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
They also turned down funding a private base site (emphasis added).
Please cite proof. And note that the rules governing use of this proposed site (access limited to those with DoD ID card or escorted by someone with DoD ID card) would have been no different than other AMA sites ALREADY in existence.
Old 04-04-2022, 01:30 PM
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Go away little boy ya bother me. Best said by someone many years ago.

There are some things like fungus and bacteria, a nuisance, but we learn to live with it.

Last edited by Propworn; 04-04-2022 at 01:32 PM.
Old 04-04-2022, 01:35 PM
  #28  
franklin_m
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Go away little boy ya bother me. Best said by someone many years ago.

There are some things like fungus and bacteria, a nuisance, but we learn to live with it.
Since you can't back up your claim, it's NOT credible.
Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Either a claim is credible or it isn't. If it isn't, then the one making the claim can't be trusted.
Old 04-04-2022, 04:09 PM
  #29  
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Well, it's clear to me that both Paul and prop are the intolerant ones here. They don't like the narrative, so they think Franklin should just go away. It would seem that they are so full of themselves and their narrative that they are threatened that the truth will come out and expose the weaknesses and inequities of their beloved organization.

Anybody that questions transparency should be suspect themselves.

Keep on ranting, guys, your true colors are showing more and more.

Instead of attacking the messenger and trying to discredit, shout down and cancel him with your baseless words, don't you think it is in the best interest that all AMA members take heed and assure that the AMA is operating in an equitable manner? What is to fear about that? What are you afraid of? If there is nothing to Franklin's claims, why are you reacting as you are?

Astro
Old 04-04-2022, 04:55 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Instead of attacking the messenger and trying to discredit, shout down and cancel him with your baseless words, don't you think it is in the best interest that all AMA members take heed and assure that the AMA is operating in an equitable manner? What is to fear about that? What are you afraid of? If there is nothing to Franklin's claims, why are you reacting as you are?

Astro
I think they are afraid that Franklin's little "fishing trip" will show that there are problems that need to be addressed and Muncie is acting like the mainstream media, trying to hide anything they or the political organizations they are covering for doesn't want us to know.
Old 04-04-2022, 05:11 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
His motivation is credibility. Either a claim is credible or it isn't. If it isn't, then the one making the claim can't be trusted.

Perhaps a few of Franklin’s “claims “should be put to the test as well.

His claim that the FAA knowledge test ( according to one of his FAA insiders ) would include needing to read sectional charts.

His claim that the FAA will never allow AMA to administer the knowledge test.

His claim that RCU account Mach5nchimchim was me.

His claim that my prediction of FAA registration renewals being much lower then initial registrations was baseless.

Least we mention his attempt at sneaking back onto a different site and outright lied about his career in retail.

Hydro, are you certain about your claim of Franklin’s high ethical standards?

Last edited by speedracerntrixie; 04-04-2022 at 05:21 PM.
Old 04-04-2022, 05:20 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I think they are afraid that Franklin's little "fishing trip" will show that there are problems that need to be addressed and Muncie is acting like the mainstream media, trying to hide anything they or the political organizations they are covering for doesn't want us to know.

Or just annoyed that Franklin has this set of documents and is cherry picking the bits of information that best suits his “ long game “. I thought I was fairly specific when I had asked him for the date of the last agreement the AMA helped broker with the FAA. I thought it would have been pretty clear that meant within the documents he had in possession. He of course replied with more of his word games. Transparency of course works both ways.
Old 04-04-2022, 05:24 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Perhaps a few of Franklin’s “claims “should be put to the test as well.

His claim that the FAA knowledge test ( according to one of his FAA insiders ) would include needing to read sectional charts.

His claim that the FAA will never allow AMA to administer the knowledge test.

His claim that RCU account Mach5nchimchim was me.

His claim that my prediction of FAA registration renewals being much lower then initial registrations.

Least we mention his attempt at sneaking back onto a different site and outright lied about his career in retail.

Hydro, are you certain about your claim of Franklin’s high ethical standards?
Not beyond a certain point since I don't know him personally. With that said, I do know he does his homework before posting while others tend to let their feelings dictate their posts. In this case, however, it's hard to argue with the results of a FOIA response since it's based on documents provided by the FAA and not on anything the AMA has put out from Muncie
Old 04-04-2022, 05:37 PM
  #34  
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Hydro, agreed. He does do his homework. So far he has shown us a very small percentage of that FOIA. It stands to reason he has only shown bits of information that supports his points. His word play on the question I asked him yesterday could be evidence to support my theory here.
Old 04-04-2022, 07:56 PM
  #35  
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Then again, it could also be that he hasn't had the time to go through all of the documents he's received. How about we give him some time to see what all he's got ?
Old 04-05-2022, 01:21 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Hydro, agreed. He does do his homework. So far he has shown us a very small percentage of that FOIA. It stands to reason he has only shown bits of information that supports his points. His word play on the question I asked him yesterday could be evidence to support my theory here.
So what exactly do you expect?

Post the entire FOIA? It's four files, over 230MB of data mostly in two files that contain EVERY agreement signed by the FAA with clubs. Can't really post them here due to size. So over to you ... what will be enough to convince you that the set of info posted so far (28 data points) is actually VERY representative of the entire set of agreements?

Last edited by franklin_m; 04-05-2022 at 01:26 AM.
Old 04-05-2022, 03:54 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
So what exactly do you expect?

Post the entire FOIA? It's four files, over 230MB of data mostly in two files that contain EVERY agreement signed by the FAA with clubs. Can't really post them here due to size. So over to you ... what will be enough to convince you that the set of info posted so far (28 data points) is actually VERY representative of the entire set of agreements?

I had only asked for one single data point right?
Old 04-05-2022, 07:53 AM
  #38  
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i don't think he wants representation of all the agreements, just the effective date of the most recent one.

worst case, send the package(s) direct to his email, and let him peruse them at his leisure.

myself, i would like to know how many have been rejected.

Last edited by mongo; 04-05-2022 at 07:57 AM. Reason: additional info
Old 04-05-2022, 08:10 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I had only asked for one single data point right?
I was responding to the most recent comment, the one where you accused me of cherry picking data:
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Or just annoyed that Franklin has this set of documents and is cherry picking the bits of information that best suits his “ long game “.
And it's hardly word games. I'm using precise language lest someone come in and try to say I said something I did not. For example, I think above you asked about "the date of the last agreement the AMA helped broker with the FAA." Well, I don't know what meets your criteria to say the agreement was one the "AMA helped broker." Are those documents were AMA HQ was a direct participant in negotiations? Or AMA was a signatory? Or merely a representative of the AMA? Or simply the club? Nobody knows because you don't use precise language. So I use precise language.

To answer what I believe you to mean by that statement above, I provide the following precise language response:


"In the documents provided to me by the FAA in response to my FOIA request, under a cover letter dated 30 March 2022, the most recent agreement of any type that I've found thus far is 15 June 2021. That's less than a year ago. That said, I caveat this by saying "thus far." I have not completed going through all 600 pages in detail."


As you also accused me of cherry picking, I'm going through and methodically recording the club name and the altitudes approved. I think you're going to find that based on the documents provided by the FAA, the 28 examples above are a fairly representative group when it comes to actual approved altitudes as reflected in the documents. If anything, they likely overstate how often clubs get above 400 (as a percent of all agreements).
Old 04-05-2022, 12:52 PM
  #40  
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So June 15,2021 is the last agreement you have record of. The next question in my mind is what date was the first agreement implemented? Correct me if I am wrong here but I don’t think this process goes back very far. Possible that you have 50% to 60% of the actual data?
Old 04-05-2022, 12:54 PM
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Final results:
  • FAA forwarded 632 pages in response to my FOIA request
  • 629 pages of agreements (156) w/ CBOs, clubs, AMA, etc. in response to my FOIA request
  • Average agreement is 3.9 pages in length
  • 11 sites forwarded to DoD for response (still pending)
  • Most recent agreement forwarded by FAA was 29 Oct 2021 (less than 6 months ago)
  • 10 agreements with 2021 dates
  • 62 agreements with 2020 dates
  • 41 of the clubs had specific agreement expiration dates
  • Of 41 clubs with agreement expiration dates, 38 are expired (i.e. invalid)
  • If club had multiple max altitudes based on conditions, I gave credit to the highest (best case)

The impact of AMA's "Influence"?
  • 96.7% of agreements (151 clubs) limited to 400 feet or less
  • 11.5 % of agreements (18) limited to 200 feet or less
  • 3.2% of agreements (5) were greater than 400 (3x600, 1 ea 1000 & 2000)
  • All but one site approved for >400 comes with additional requirements

(added) Of 134 dated after LAANC in effect (23 July 2019 per AMA - when AMA started working to get high altitudes):
  • 96.2% (129) at or below 400 feet

One more thing:
In the entire package, there is no agreement with any entity that gives authority to operate above 400 AGL at "Taj-Muncie"

Last edited by franklin_m; 04-06-2022 at 03:12 AM. Reason: Removed a line feed or two to clean up
Old 04-05-2022, 12:58 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
So June 15,2021 is the last agreement you have record of. The next question in my mind is what date was the first agreement implemented? Correct me if I am wrong here but I don’t think this process goes back very far. Possible that you have 50% to 60% of the actual data?
See above, the most recent agreement is less than six months old. There are six agreements that date back to 2016. Nothing older than that.

Last edited by franklin_m; 04-05-2022 at 01:23 PM.
Old 06-27-2022, 09:44 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
final results:
  • faa forwarded 632 pages in response to my foia request
  • 629 pages of agreements (156) w/ cbos, clubs, ama, etc. In response to my foia request
  • average agreement is 3.9 pages in length
  • 11 sites forwarded to dod for response (still pending)
  • most recent agreement forwarded by faa was 29 oct 2021 (less than 6 months ago)
  • 10 agreements with 2021 dates
  • 62 agreements with 2020 dates
  • 41 of the clubs had specific agreement expiration dates
  • of 41 clubs with agreement expiration dates, 38 are expired (i.e. Invalid)
  • if club had multiple max altitudes based on conditions, i gave credit to the highest (best case)

the impact of ama's "influence"?
  • 96.7% of agreements (151 clubs) limited to 400 feet or less
  • 11.5 % of agreements (18) limited to 200 feet or less
  • 3.2% of agreements (5) were greater than 400 (3x600, 1 ea 1000 & 2000)
  • all but one site approved for >400 comes with additional requirements

(added) of 134 dated after laanc in effect (23 july 2019 per ama - when ama started working to get high altitudes):
  • 96.2% (129) at or below 400 feet

one more thing:
in the entire package, there is no agreement with any entity that gives authority to operate above 400 agl at "taj-muncie"
fake news
Old 06-27-2022, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mach5nchimchim View Post
fake news
Really? And what is it, specifically, that you are basing that statement on?
Old 07-03-2022, 05:12 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by mach5nchimchim View Post
fake news
Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
Really? And what is it, specifically, that you are basing that statement on?
Yeah, I'm kinda curious too. Can't help but notice that never responded!
Old 07-03-2022, 05:48 AM
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Trolls will troll.......

They never have anything to substantiate their claims, they just shout and call names alot.

Astro

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