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AMA getting above 400 AGL - Not so successful

Old 06-09-2022, 06:11 AM
  #176  
speedracerntrixie
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Keep in mind that each state is able to set their own policies on this. Franklin did post a link that clearly explained that the CHP is not bound to just the highways/freeways.

You can hopefully see where the perception of people believing in what they want to believe and believing based on who they give more credibility to regardless of the facts presented. Human nature is probably the biggest obstacle you and I have to deal with while on the job. Iíve got 14 people from 5 different cultures and 2 genders. Sometimes getting everyone on the same page is a challenge.
Old 06-09-2022, 06:24 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Keep in mind that each state is able to set their own policies on this. Franklin did post a link that clearly explained that the CHP is not bound to just the highways/freeways.
Each State sets policies for their respective Highway Patrol, State Police, etc., They do not set policy for Federal LE, or the FAA. Your statement has no bearing on the discussion we are/were having, rather it was meant to deflect from you being wrong.

There is nothing to debate here. FAA has enforcement powers over FAA laws and policy. Period. No other agency has enforcement power of FAA laws and policy. Period.

No amount of your wurd salud can change that. Period.

Astro
Old 06-09-2022, 07:25 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
If you recall, I proved that the CHP do NOT have enforcement powers over FAA rules, but you left only believing what you wanted to, regardless of the facts.

I see you continue to double-down on your hypocrisy.

Astro

PS - for reference, here is a quote from the faa.gov website; "the FAA retains the responsibility for enforcing FAAs regulations"
I gave you a first hand account of when they did enforce FAA law. You interpret some written words while I lived the event. Great case of what I have been saying in this forum for years. Some guys want to scour the internet to form their opinions on the hobby while others are out spending time at events and their home club(s). Yet somehow the keyboard cowboys feel empowered to tell everyone what is happening at club sites.


Old 06-09-2022, 07:35 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I gave you a first hand account of when they did enforce FAA law. You interpret some written words while I lived the event. Great case of what I have been saying in this forum for years. Some guys want to scour the internet to form their opinions on the hobby while others are out spending time at events and their home club(s). Yet somehow the keyboard cowboys feel empowered to tell everyone what is happening at club sites.
There is no point trying to communicate with you. You are simply unable to comprehend and use the written word effectively. In other words, you are either illiterate, or just being obtuse. Words have meaning, they are not subject to YOUR interpretation of them.

In the situation you describe, the CHP DID NOT enforce anything, despite your insistence.

You can deny reality and live in your delusional fantasy world if you want, just don't expect the real world to acquiesce to your delusions.

Astro


Old 06-09-2022, 09:00 AM
  #180  
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Old 06-09-2022, 09:55 AM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I'm not sure what your point is? The respondent's reply confirms exactly what I've stated.

I believe the respondent to your question meant to say, "...the majority of local law enforcement aren't familiar with FAA rules" as that fits the rest of his narrative better.

Don't just do a drive-by, please be clear what YOU think their reply meant.

You also understand that humans have been known to make mistakes (especially Gov. employees!). The link I posted from the FAA website is very black-and-white about who is tasked with enforcement of FAA rules, regulations and laws, and it CLEARLY lies only with the FAA.

I'm not going to play your games anymore. As I have stated, the FAA is the SOLE enforcer of it's rules, regs and laws. PERIOD. It matters not what you or anyone else says or believes, it simply doesn't change that fact.

You were WRONG. Just admit it and we can move on........

This is a recurring theme with you, isn't it?

Astro
Old 06-09-2022, 10:01 AM
  #182  
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What about ď yes ď do you not understand Astro? Email straight from an FAA employee dated today. Couple that with a first hand account and itís pretty clear.

What I get out of this email directly from the FAA is that all LEO are empowered to enforce FAA regs regarding UAS but are free to use discretion in doing so.

Last edited by speedracerntrixie; 06-09-2022 at 10:06 AM.
Old 06-09-2022, 10:30 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
What about ď yes ď do you not understand Astro? Email straight from an FAA employee dated today. Couple that with a first hand account and itís pretty clear.

What I get out of this email directly from the FAA is that all LEO are empowered to enforce FAA regs regarding UAS but are free to use discretion in doing so.
Yep, and you are wrong.

What part about, "In a broadly general sense" do YOU not get? What part about, "the FAA retains the responsibility for enforcing FAAs regulations" do YOU not get?

Go ahead, get back to your FAA contact and ask him, "specifically" who is empowered to enforce FAA regs, maybe include the quote from the FAA's own website and ask for clarification, as it seems as though the only answer you will accept comes from him, the FAA website is not good enough for you.


Again, you prove your own point about people believing what they want to. You are the worst offender. AND you prove the point I made about cognitive bias, about you being obtuse AND your narcissism.

As I have repeated, the facts are the facts, keep spinning however you want, it simply won't change them. The FAA retains the responsibility for enforcing FAA regulations. PERIOD. No other entity is empowered to do so, no matter how much you want it to be true, it simply is not.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 01:56 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Yep, and you are wrong.

What part about, "In a broadly general sense" do YOU not get? What part about, "the FAA retains the responsibility for enforcing FAAs regulations" do YOU not get?

Go ahead, get back to your FAA contact and ask him, "specifically" who is empowered to enforce FAA regs, maybe include the quote from the FAA's own website and ask for clarification, as it seems as though the only answer you will accept comes from him, the FAA website is not good enough for you.


Again, you prove your own point about people believing what they want to. You are the worst offender. AND you prove the point I made about cognitive bias, about you being obtuse AND your narcissism.

As I have repeated, the facts are the facts, keep spinning however you want, it simply won't change them. The FAA retains the responsibility for enforcing FAA regulations. PERIOD. No other entity is empowered to do so, no matter how much you want it to be true, it simply is not.

Astro
Local LE and Sherriff's routinely arrest pilots for FAA safety violations before the FAA even gets involved.
Old 06-12-2022, 03:13 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Local LE and Sherriff's routinely arrest pilots for FAA safety violations before the FAA even gets involved.
Absolutely untrue. They simply do not have the authority to arrest anyone for FAA rule violations.

Go read the FAA page I linked to above. It is very clear.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 03:34 PM
  #186  
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I'll just leave this here, if you all don't mind. A quick google search turned up at least 5 cases where local police have, in fact, arrested drunken Pilots.

Here's one that was noteworthy to me, as the flight was headed my way (Boston) .....


https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/...spected-drunk/
Old 06-12-2022, 03:42 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
I'll just leave this here, if you all don't mind. A quick google search turned up at least 5 cases where local police have, in fact, arrested drunken Pilots.

Here's one that was noteworthy to me, as the flight was headed my way (Boston) .....


https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/...spected-drunk/
What it doesn't say, is if he was arrested for Breaking FAA rules, or local laws. I'm pretty sure most localities have laws against operating any kind of equipment while intoxicated.

As we discussed earlier, the FAA does allow for local LE to collect evidence and assist the FAA, and local LE can obviously enforce local laws, but enforcement action of FAA rules always lies with the FAA.

Another note: an arrest does not necessarily constitute enforcement, a conviction and a sentence do.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 03:42 PM
  #188  
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The pertinent part, for those who don't like to click on unsolicited links ;

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (CBS/AP) — A co-pilot on a charter plane in northern Michigan was arrested Thursday morning after a colleague suspected that he was drunk.

Traverse City police Capt. Kevin Dunklow says a breath test Thursday showed a blood-alcohol level of 0.30, nearly four times the legal threshold for drunken driving.

The flight was headed to Bedford, Massachusetts and was delayed several hours at Cherry Capital Airport.

The co-pilot flies for Talon Air and has been fired.

Notice how is specifically says "Traverse City police Capt. Kevin Dunklow says a breath test Thursday showed a blood-alcohol level of 0.30.........."

Now, reading this I GOTTA believe the Traverse City police department most certainly DID arrest that pilot, so, can we PLEASE put this to bed once and for all here, or do I really need to print up all of the instances of police OTHER THAN any in the employ of the FAA arresting drunken Pilots ???????
Old 06-12-2022, 03:50 PM
  #189  
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https://www.boston.com/news/travel/2...nk-police-say/

Sure looks like the local PD and the FAA work together to me........
Old 06-12-2022, 04:07 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post

Now, reading this I GOTTA believe the Traverse City police department most certainly DID arrest that pilot, so, can we PLEASE put this to bed once and for all here, or do I really need to print up all of the instances of police OTHER THAN any in the employ of the FAA arresting drunken Pilots ???????
What we need in order to put this to rest is what was the pilot charged with, and by whom? An arrest does NOT constitute enforcement. Many people have been arrested and not charged.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 04:08 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
https://www.boston.com/news/travel/2...nk-police-say/

Sure looks like the local PD and the FAA work together to me........
Not sure if this was pointed at me, but I've never denied that local LE and the FAA cooperate.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 04:13 PM
  #192  
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"That was the case in both of the recent incidents. On July 30, 37-year-old Delta pilot Gabriel Schroeder was arrested in Minnesota a little after 11 a.m. after he was found with an alcoholic container and suspected of being impaired, according to arrest data from the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport’s police department. Authorities became suspicious, the report said, when he left a crew member security line after realizing that additional screening was ahead. The scheduled flight to San Diego was delayed an hour to wait for someone to replace Schroeder.

Just a few days later, on the morning of Aug. 3, two United pilots were taken into custody in Glasgow, Scotland after being suspected of intoxication. Their flight to Newark was canceled. One was released without being charged and the other, 61-year-old Glendon Gulliver, was formally charged with being over the alcohol limit as he was preparing to fly, according to The Associated Press."

The above in quotes are two more excerpts from the articles I found on drunken pilots. In each instance, the FAA did either suspend or revoke the pilot's license of the accused pilot.

In all of these incidents, the FAA used the local PD's evidence in their judgments against the drunken Pilots, thereby, the local PD has become a part of the FAA's enforcement action. Since the FAA has no police force of it's own, I'd have to conclude that the FAA's enforcement actions are in concert with the "foot work" done by the local PD, leading to the only logical conclusion, that the local PD are, in fact, partnered with the FAA in enforcing FAA regulations. Remember, if we're gonna be playing with words here, the local PD doesn't "enforce" ANY laws, that's what courts of law do, after the PD presents their evidence to them. I see NO difference whatsoever between the PD presenting it's evidence to the court's prosecutor, or to the FAA, either way the evidence gathered will be used by the appropriate authority in enforcing their regulations.

I am now finished here, I have presented my point to MY satisfaction, and I believe most here will see the logic I have presented. When someone wants to show me where, , , ONE CASE, , where the FAA has rejected the local PD's intel with the "Only WE can investigate and enforce our regs" ethos, then I may be compelled to entertain this discussion once again, but I highly doubt that's gonna happen.

I bid a good evening to all...........

Last edited by init4fun; 06-12-2022 at 04:16 PM.
Old 06-12-2022, 04:18 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
"That was the case in both of the recent incidents. On July 30, 37-year-old Delta pilot Gabriel Schroeder was arrested in Minnesota a little after 11 a.m. after he was found with an alcoholic container and suspected of being impaired, according to arrest data from the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airportís police department. Authorities became suspicious, the report said, when he left a crew member security line after realizing that additional screening was ahead. The scheduled flight to San Diego was delayed an hour to wait for someone to replace Schroeder.

Just a few days later, on the morning of Aug. 3, two United pilots were taken into custody in Glasgow, Scotland after being suspected of intoxication. Their flight to Newark was canceled. One was released without being charged and the other, 61-year-old Glendon Gulliver, was formally charged with being over the alcohol limit as he was preparing to fly, according to The Associated Press."

The above in quotes are two more excerpts from the articles I found on drunken pilots. In each instance, the FAA did either suspend or revoke the pilot's license of the accused pilot.

In all of these incidents, the FAA used the local PD's evidence in their judgments against the drunken Pilots, thereby, the local PD has become a part of the FAA's enforcement action. Since the FAA has no police force of it's own, I'd have to conclude that the FAA's enforcement actions are in concert with the "foot work" done by the local PD, leading to the only logical conclusion, that the local PD are, in fact, partnered with the FAA in enforcing FAA regulations. Remember, if we're gonna be playing with words here, the local PD doesn't "enforce" ANY laws, that's what courts of law do, after the PD presents their evidence to them. I see NO difference whatsoever between the PD presenting it's evidence to the court's prosecutor, or to the FAA, either way the evidence gathered will be used by the appropriate authority in enforcing their regulations.

I am now finished here, I have presented my point to MY satisfaction, and I believe most here will see the logic I have presented. When someone wants to show me where, , , ONE CASE, , where the FAA has rejected the local PD's intel with the "Only WE can investigate and enforce our regs" ethos, then I may be compelled to entertain this discussion once again, but I highly doubt that's gonna happen.

I bid a good evening to all...........
You are simply applying your own definition of "enforcement". Enforcement of the rules comes at the time of judgement, has nothing to do with the arrest or where the intel came from.

https://www.911security.com/news/faa...rone-authority

Astro

Old 06-12-2022, 04:29 PM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
You are simply applying your own definition of "enforcement". Enforcement of the rules comes at the time of judgement, has nothing to do with the arrest or where the intel came from.

https://www.911security.com/news/faa...rone-authority

Astro
Just so you know, I'm NOT busting your balls, I appreciate your defense of your position and it's nice to see someone who can debate an issue without getting personal.

And you've just made my point, yes indeed enforcement is the end of the process, a process that starts with the presentation of evidence of wrongdoing. ANY entity involved, from the local PD's breath analysis, to the FAA official's judgement that removes the license, are ALL a part of the enforcement action. In this case, please tell me how the FAA can enforce something that isn't presented to them?

I'll have to read your response in the AM, gotta go for now for real.....
Old 06-12-2022, 04:36 PM
  #195  
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Here is a quote from the FAA's, "LAW ENFORCEMENT GUIDANCE FOR SUSPECTED UNAUTHORIZED UAS OPERATIONS"
FAA_UAS-PO_LEA_Guidance.pdf

"Other investigative methods also may prove useful, such as consensual examination of the UAS, equipment trailers and the like. However, other law enforcement processes, such as arrest and detention or non-consensual searches almost always fall outside of the allowable methods to pursue administrative enforcement actions by the FAA unless they are truly a by-product of a state criminal investigation."

It is pretty clear to me.

The vast majority (not all) of FAA UAS violations are NOT considered criminal offenses. The original discussion was about local LE enforcing UAS operations. I believe the instances you cited are considered criminal offenses and involve full-scale aircraft. I'm not sure how local LE and the FAA cooperate where those offenses occur. I think that in some instances (immigration laws) local LE have been "deputized" by the FED's and are able to arrest offenders.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 05:10 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
Absolutely untrue. They simply do not have the authority to arrest anyone for FAA rule violations.

Go read the FAA page I linked to above. It is very clear.

Astro
Intoxication and interfering with emergency responders/firefighting are two. You're splitting hairs on overlapping laws.
And who will prosecute the $250,000 fine/3 years in jail for not getting your UAS certificate?
Old 06-12-2022, 05:34 PM
  #197  
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"Careless or Reckless" is another one. It usually involves buzzing too low. Someone turns the guy in and a cop is waiting
at the airport and he's arrested. Whether or not the DA files charges it's turned over to the FAA.
Old 06-12-2022, 05:37 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Intoxication and interfering with emergency responders/firefighting are two. You're splitting hairs on overlapping laws.
And who will prosecute the $250,000 fine/3 years in jail for not getting your UAS certificate?
Please see my post above about local LE not being able to arrest for FAA violations.

Please cite the FAA rule that prohibits interfering with emergency responders/firefighters.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 05:55 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
"Careless or Reckless" is another one. It usually involves buzzing too low. Someone turns the guy in and a cop is waiting
at the airport and he's arrested. Whether or not the DA files charges it's turned over to the FAA.
I will remind you that this discussion started with Speedy stating that he was flying toy airplanes one day and he was approached by the California Highway Patrol and was told to , "Pack up, or get arrested". I replied that, "The CHP has no authority to enforce FAA rules".

I stand by that statement (certainly as it pertains to toy airplanes). If you are so hell-bent on being "right" and want to expand this into full-scale FAA violations (an area that I am NOT as familiar as UAS regs) discussion, fine, just don't pretend that you have "won" or that I am "wrong" by providing oranges-to-apples comparisons. I will pick apart your statement a bit; Any FAA infractions considered criminal would be brought by the Feds and tried in Federal court, not by the local DA of record where Local LE arrested the suspect. If there have been infractions of local laws that happen to involve aircraft or UAS, then local LE can certainly arrest and the local DA can enforce. FAA rules and regs are Federal, and as such, can ONLY be enforced by the FEDS, not by local LE.

Astro
Old 06-12-2022, 06:05 PM
  #200  
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Another one:
A small plane lands and takes off on a public road. A neighbor calls the police. They come out and take a report. No harm
no foul, with the police it ends there but they forward it to the FAA.


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